Alice (07/10/00 at 12:00 pm) wrote:

>>Hi all! Could someone please translate this discussion into plain English? So far it's gone all over the board. Maybe I'm having a 'stupid' day or I missed something, but what is the core issue and arguement? Stephanie, you are very eloquent, but you may need to dummy down for dummies like me!

Cal (07/11/00 at 1:35 am) wrote:

>>
>>>>>>***** Of course I know that you have these abilities...everyone does...at least potentially. If you remember I suggested to Janey on this forum that she should give you a break in trying to decipher her disconnected visions BECAUSE you don't have a TA to 'hyperlink' the way far 'out there' stuff for you. I just think TA's are truthful accurate Sources of information for those who find themselves in mortality. Maybe Cal doesn't need one but Bob could have effectively benefitted from this ministry longer if he had so chosen.
>>>>>>
>>
>>A little arrogant aren't we? You first assume need where none exists then you assume abilities (TA) of which you have no proving. Show me the beef, and I'll be happy to reconsider my position. Finally, your proposition assumes a split in identity between Bob and Cal when, in reality both are the same individual with two different names.

>>^^^^^Father provided this gift to mortals so there is no doubt a good reason and purpose for their ministry. Simply using the names to differentiate the human and angelic aspects of your extremely charming self.

>>>>>> I remain unconvinced as to the reliability of the one over the other since I do >>>>>>'believe' the TA to be an actual whole 'holy')individualized particle of
>>>>>>>>Father's Being.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Believe as you will. when you can show me the 'particle' I'd be more impressed.
>>>>
>>>>>>***** You could see it for your own self anytime you want...all you have to do is ask Father.
>>
>>Nope. It's your belief. The responsibility for establishing the reality is yours.
>>
>>^^^^^Well... I could describe the process of taking a bath but the total significance of the experience will elude anyone who refuses to actually get in the water. There are subjective realities such as 'knowing God'
that are unprovable in the physical/material realm yet incontrovertible
to the experiencer of the knowing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It's Presence within the mind brings with It complete invulnerability... protection from the machinations of 'evil'(those who have forgotten what they are).I really don't know anyone who tries to pass themselves off as 'elevated'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes yes, I've heard this by rote repetition from the UB before. (from you - when I was listening)
>>>>
>>>>>>***** I told you in person about a few discoveries that I had made about my Self long before I found the UB to explain to me what had happened in words that I could understand.
>>
>>Steffani, early in the awakening, I recognized the need to establish a level of proof that others could follow. To that end, I documented, photographed and recorded in sufficient detail that which would allow anyone possessed with a logical and unbiased mind to follow. A thing is what it is regardless of what it is called. Your elevated ideas on TA's
>>have not one iota of objective evidence to support the proposition (nor does the UB's). Your assumption that people need TA's to communicate with Father ignores the fact a person is already hardwired into Father by virture of his soul. Yet, even were you to reject this - there are many many angels who don't have TA's, you know one, who can have direct discourse with Father at will. This last example undermines your theory and belief.
>>
>>^^^^^ Actually I know quite a few...I have no problem with the fact that Father has created numerous orders of beings who commune with Him in various ways.

>>>> Or attempt to communicate to others about this experience. If you were unable to hear me about this it doesn't mean it didn't happen... but only that there is nothing within your own realm of experience to relate to this occurence in a meaningful way. That's o.k.
>>
>>
>>Conversely, it could just as easily mean that the 'experience' is a delusion seeking to fulfill a need. By way of example. The first rule of the scientific method is naturalistic observation. If you find 100,000 people who report the same observation, you have the beginnings of a fact.
>>Single experiential instances, in the absence of tangible proofs, are not objective evidence. Again returning to the difference between a belief system and a reality system. One is chosen, the other simply is.
>>
>>^^^^^ I started out in this life as a devotee of the scientific method.
I have had experience that put me in the situation of the character of Jodie Foster in 'Contact' with a completely blown paradigm of former beliefs about the nature of 'reality'. Not ordinarily being prone to psychiatric disturbances before or since I have concluded after much personal research that this event was no delusion...aside from the physical evidence that was left at my request. Anyway it remains the 'realest' thing that I have ever known to this day and all that I am today is based upon it as a value system.

>>>>I have found others who do... so it is no longer as important as during the years before I had found anyone at all to share it with who could accept the reality of my story.
>>>>
>>>>
>>"My story". Personalizing this to myself, Who amongst you would even consider, for a minute, that I was truly Caligastia had I not served up a healthy dose of proof? None would, nor would I blame them. I demanded proofs and I got them. I don't feel so special or blessed that I don't think I did anything that others couldn't do.
>>
>>^^^^^ You may have observed that I have required no 'proof' about you.
I merely asked... All of the 'proofs' you have amassed do seem singularly
'blessed' by your own interpretations. I do not think anyone else would have placed the same characterizations on the sculptures in your lovely
'rock garden' that you have according to your own understandings of universal events. Personally I have not found Father's Presence elusive
for communion anytime or anyplace. If I spend more than a few hours skywatching in a suitable environment I often have one or more 'close encounters' of the visual kind...this is usually just observed without the
need on my part to designate who is 'good or bad' like the judgement of Santa Claus or something.

>>>>>>>> I have a friend who is an astrophysicist and although I am well versed on many scientific matters for a 'layperson' there is at times a need for him to use less technical words and concepts in explaining things to me than he would in speaking with similarly educated fellow scientists for me to 'get it'. This doesn't necessarily mean that I am less intelligent
>>>>>>>>...just unfamiliar with jargon and ideas that I haven't had the opportunity to experience to that degree. This is simply a matter of common sense.
>>
>>The issue of words has been with you and I for a long time now. I speak English and use old age concepts known to most. You choose a vehicle of more recent construction that only a relative few indulge. I accept that it is better to speak in the language of the common man and I will not alter this position as I know it to be correct. Thus, we will continue to have this problem.

>>^^^^^ I really didn't seem to encounter this difficulty when we were in each other's face so to speak. As I have mentioned before there is enough positive feedback from many others about my writing so that I do think it is easily understood by a lot of folks...and appreciated. I think it is the very ancient mindal pattern that you find disconcerting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Right now we have had a struggle to find words that mean enough in common for both of us to try to understand each other with mortal 'peabrains'
>>>>>>>>...do you suppose it will be easier or harder
>>>>>>>>to communicate when you 'repersonalize' and are in a completely different modality of consciousness.
>>
>>
>>Why don't you survey the other participants in the adventure and seek to discover if they have the same problem you've encountered with my use of language. If so, perhaps you have a point. If not, then it will be easier to identify who owns the problem.
>>
>>I reject your designation of 'mortal peabrains'. I do not view my fellows in such a poor light.
>>
>>^^^^^ It does not seem an inaccurate view to recognize that my own human consciousness is circumscribed and attenuated by the vestiges
of the animal nature (my version of 'the mark of the beast'). I hope one day to be more than what I seem to be today...the hope of something acutely aware of it's humble present status.
>>
>>My interactions with 'celestial' personalities
>>>>>>>>have always been loving and positive...that is all I know based on my own experience.
>>>>>>>>
>>
>>How is the love expressed? Do you believe that attachments to an unwitting party constitutes love? Do you believe that manipulation via that attachment to be holy or heavenly? What is it the attacher receives in return for his effort? What are his intents - what does he do with the information gleaned from the intrusions. Once these questions have been answer AND proof placed on the table - I might be able to discern whether or not there was any love in the violation of a human beings free will.
>>
>>^^^^^There is no manipulation of an 'unwitting party' going on here. Information is freely given and received with no more intrusiveness than the ringing of a telephone with either person maintaining the right to say
'hey...I'm busy now I'll call you back later'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>1. I don't seem to have any trouble getting across to most people. You seem to be an exception. Mostly in that I won't learn New Age with Old One works much better.
>>>>
>>>>>>***** Your interactions with Old One are telepathic mindlinks...yes?
>>>>
>>Yes
>>^^^^^ So how is this different except in that your trust of him seems
to be somewhat limited?
>>
>>>>>>2. As to your loving interactions with celestials - BS! 'all I know' is right. When all of this love is going on, I saw a different person. Even Old One drew it to your attention. For two days, I tended to your security and those with us and did so with the tacit agreement of all concerned.
>>>>>>The limit of your knowledge is the problem and your unwillingness to go beyond 'all I know'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>3. You have the right to be used and/or manipulated if you wish. YOu can dress it up and call it elevated and celestial. Yet, in my book, its no different than being mugged in a dark alley.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>***** Amazing that you would think so...I am perfectly safe at all times.
>>
>>And will remain so as long as you are a willing participant. Remove the willingness from the equation and see how it goes.
>>
>>>>My peace is maintained and nothing occurs without my permission. Jackie was the one who appeared to be undergoing significant distress from the 'attachment' you seemed to believe would be aimed in my direction...
>>>>that did appear to me to be an unwelcome attack on her from an 'energy' she
>>>>couldn't handle without your help.
>>
>>
>>Incorrect reading. This came from a different quarter and had nothing to do with you. However, perhaps you might have learned how unpleasant these holy and elevated beings can get when they don't get what they want. I told Jackie in the beginning that being with me wouldn't be easy. Because of her close association with me, she is frequently targeted. In most instances, she has developed the ability to handle it herself. This was an exception.
>>You might also note, they don't want to play with me and instead chose to prey upon another's mortality.
>>
>>^^^^^This would seem to be an unfair 'set-up'...
>>
>>Why then does that happen to her when she lives with you under your 'security'?
>>
>>Generally, I don't protect Jackie. I provided Father's Ring around the totality of the lair and the keep during our excursion to prevent my guests from having to endure what you saw with Jackie. Jackie is learning to swim.
>>She has to wade into the ocean and deal with the currents. If it becomes more than she can handle, I jump in. Her abilities are such that she has already surpassed any mortal and would, by current definition, be properly designated as an ascended master. Were I standing in front of her all the time, she'd have no need to develope the abilities she possesses.
>>
>>^^^^^ All of this appears as subjective to me as my situation seems to be to you. I saw no 'beef' of Old One materializing every time he wants to talk to you guys. Frankly from your descriptions of him it might be disconcerting to the other folks around your home if that did occur.

>> >My trust is in Father and that which Michael taught me about 'energy projections' long ago...along the lines of whatever you send out with harmful intent eventually comes back to the sender...ergo holding harmless and helpful intent towards all beings
>>
>>This thought is a product of wicca and a variety of other 'magic' based philosophies. The idea of karma. You attempt to pin a Terran system of thought and belief upwards on a universal scale. While I'll agree that every dog does get his day (eventually) you may also which to note that the bad guys do win and people suffer enormously in the doing. So, a miscreant angel doesn't give a rat's backside to any idea of karma, particularly when they've deluded themselves that they serve some higher and holy purpose.
>>
>>
>>>>ensures safety and nothing else can or ever will. That is my understanding of Father's law. (love always works)
>>
>>Really? I guess Adolph Hitler did a whole lot of loving then. Pardon the sarcasim here but Pollyana wasn't any more real than the tooth fairy.
>>
>>> Neither I nor 'the other persons' mean you any harm...you will come to realize this eventually.
>>
>>I have no fear or concern here Steffani and I'm not certain where you got the idea.
>>
>>^^^^^ This is good to know...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>+++ The only 'adverse energy' that I encountered during the entire experience was whatever tried to convince Dennis that I would try to interfere with Father's Plan for his life. In reality I had stated that
>>>>>>>>completing his mission and being about Father's business is all that matters. Whether that misperception came from his own mind or not I cannot say.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dueling spirits? I rather think that incident was the result of Dennis' subconscious recognition of the attachment issue where you were concerned.
>>>>>>His reaction was, admittedly, an over reaction and I, personally, already knew you were transporting an uninvited guest.
>>>>
>>>>>>***** Not unless Dennis forgot for a moment who it is he works for and that what He says goes. The Creator of the universe and His designated consort and associates are rarely referred to as 'uninvited guests'. They
>>>>do have the right to be whereever and with whomever they wish
>>>>...nevertheless permission is duly asked for and always granted.
>>>>(even if Immanuel must put Dennis in a headlock to get it :-)
>>
>>Whoa....I think you just left the planet. You assume that Michael of Nebadon was attached to you? Not a chance in Heaven or Hell. Furthermore, he is as mortal as you and incurs the limitations of mortality in the bargain. Believe as you will, but we know exactly and precisely where he is
>>at all times. I have two angelic guardians on him and two nordics 24 hours a day without exception. Intruding upon a person's mortality is so far beyond the boundaries of any acceptable behavior that it carries with it a death penalty. Not even with the apostles did Jesus perform such an endeavor. However, for the sake of arguement, lets say you're right in your assumptions. Prove it!

>>Yes...I did leave the planet. No he isn't a little boy living in Los Angeles...at least not exclusively...We will both have the opportunity for clarification on this...maybe sooner rather than later...but it really is
not entirely understandable in human terms or timeframes.

>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>+++ Excuse me Dear One...wasn't intolerance and the extermination of that which was inimicable to the established order the initial problem
>>>>>>>>that has made it necessary for you to feel you have to fight for survival in the first place... >>doesn't this sort of behavior perpetuate it?
>>
>>Let's see. Fighting for my life, perpetuates the conflict with those who would kill me. The obvious solution is to let 'them' (whoever they might be) succeed. Do you see a flaw in this reasoning?
>>
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I hate to tell you this Steffani but war does solve problems and resolve conflicts. However, where The Earth is concerned, those uninvited guests remaining here do so in the knowledge that tolerance is one of my practices - until I have a reason not to be tolerant. The list of those reasons is now as long as my leg. The right to exercise soverignity over this world is mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>***** For whom does war solve problems and resolve conflicts without causing more of the same only differing in forms?
>>
>>Well, let's see. The American Revolution got the British outta here and today, half the island would give their eye teeth to immigrate here.
>>Hitler was quashed by virture of war. Most would agree that was a good thing. I could go on for some time but I think you get the idea.
>>
>>To avoid conflict and war, in your paradigm, better that Adolf should have succeed in his genocidal plans. The example is as extreme as your exemplar.
>>
>>I'll console myself with the fact the list won't be over a yard long yet for a while ...sorry!
>>
>>Get a history book Steff - the list is way past a yard.
>>
>>His story will be corrected...

>>>>You need to keep in mind Dear One that until I met you in your current state last February on UBRON I thought Michael's regent was doing a jam up job as planetary prince and you were night-night beddy bye in the darkness asleep somewhere.
>>
>>Could this mean that one of your belief's changed? However, your comment is factually flawed. You indicated that you believed conditions on this world sucked. Hardly what I'd call a bang up job.
>>
>>>>This is an interesting development in the Divine and no longer quite so benign X-files episodes that I seem to have wandered into to make life ever more interesting.
>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>It remains my hope that everyone will come to the realization that the 'jihad' is internal before needless further divestation is unwisely chosen. How can waging still one more war bring peace?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What a remarkably universal word. "Jihad", few would use it in this context and most would think it specific to Arabs.
>>>>
>>>>>>***** You would prefer the term 'holy war'? That sounds oxymoronic to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm sorry but for me the war was in my own mind and it is over...
>>>>>>>>I have made another choice.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I know.
>>>>
>>>>>>***** You have the option of joining me in making the same decision for a One Power universe NOW...
>>
>>I made that decision long ago. One Creator Son as absolute dictator and ruler. I'll settle for nothing less. I made my stand long before you were a glimmer in Father's eye.

>>^^^^^Halleluia! At last one thing on which we are in complete agreement.
>>
>>>>Out of time in reality Father has already won.
>>
>>The out of time reality spawns from the in time reality. They are not separate.
>>^^^^^This is true...it doesn't always look that way.

>>>>As a matter of fact none of this other stuff ever really happened at all.
>>>>That is the reason His Love is unconditional.
>>>>
>>Really? Well then, I'm due for a long overdue vacation.

>>^^^^^ Probably...

Only Love.
Steffani

Cal (07/11/00 at 12:11 pm) wrote:

>>
>>>>>>^^^^^Well... I could describe the process of taking a bath but the total significance of the experience will elude anyone who refuses to actually get in the water. There are subjective realities such as 'knowing God'
>>>>that are unprovable in the physical/material realm yet incontrovertible
>>>>to the experiencer of the knowing.
>>
>>I get it - no proof.

>><<<<<<< Right On...no external proof. That dip in the creek at Angel's Lair sure felt good...where could I begin to try to describe the sensations. The physical evidence to others that 'proved' my body was less hot, sweaty and dirty only slightly validates the complete scope of the experience for me.
>>
>>>>>>^^^^^ I started out in this life as a devotee of the scientific method.
>>>>I have had experience that put me in the situation of the character of Jodie Foster in 'Contact' with a completely blown paradigm of former beliefs about the nature of 'reality'. Not ordinarily being prone to psychiatric disturbances before or since I have concluded after much personal research that this event was no delusion...aside from the physical evidence that was left at my request. Anyway it remains the 'realest' thing that I have ever known to this day and all that I am today is based upon it as a value system.
>>
>>What you describe here is an abduction.
>><<<<<<< Not hardly...what happened was caused by a decision ...an act of will on my part. The 'lower dimensional' construct of the spaceship was a helpful means of facilitating my own decision to return to 'this 3D world'
after reviewing the situation from Creator's perspective.
>>
>>>>>>"My story". Personalizing this to myself, Who amongst you would even consider, for a minute, that I was truly Caligastia had I not served up a healthy dose of proof? None would, nor would I blame them. I demanded proofs and I got them. I don't feel so special or blessed that I don't think I did anything that others couldn't do.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>^^^^^ You may have observed that I have required no 'proof' about you.
>>
>>If you don't require proof to the proposition, that's your call - but it is on the net regardless. What you saw last weekend was a shared experience which constitutes OBJECTIVE evidence.
>>
>>
>>>>I merely asked... All of the 'proofs' you have amassed do seem singularly
>>>>'blessed' by your own interpretations.
>>
>>Really? I've made few interpretations. Logical form demands the establishment of a premise, facts and evidence and then inference or deduction based upon that evidence. What you arbitrarily call an interpretation is not.
>>
>>I do not think anyone else would have placed the same characterizations on the sculptures in your lovely
>>>>'rock garden' that you have according to your own understandings of universal events.
>>
>>Agreed, none would have because they wouldn't have been visible to anyone else. However, I don't recall that you've ever asked how I came to my conclusions so you have no way to know how I came to the designations of identity.
>>
>><<<<<<< If your 'proof' is not visible to anyone else without your conclusions how then is it 'objective evidence'of designated identities?

>> Personally I have not found Father's Presence elusive
>>>>for communion anytime or anyplace. If I spend more than a few hours skywatching in a suitable environment I often have one or more 'close encounters' of the visual kind...this is usually just observed without the
>>>>need on my part to designate who is 'good or bad' like the judgement of Santa Claus or something.
>>
>>Ah ha...... there it is. That's the piece I've been waiting for. Well then, it follows that as you can't believe your own eyes - then all of your designations of experiential items are equally unbelievable.

>><<<<<<>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Right now we have had a struggle to find words that mean enough in common for both of us to try to understand each other with mortal 'peabrains'
>>>>>>>>>>>>...do you suppose it will be easier or harder
>>>>>>>>>>>>to communicate when you 'repersonalize' and are in a completely different modality of consciousness.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why don't you survey the other participants in the adventure and seek to discover if they have the same problem you've encountered with my use of language. If so, perhaps you have a point. If not, then it will be easier to identify who owns the problem.

>><<<<<<< Getting others to agree with one doesn't mean that any of those in agreement are necessarily correct about a particular issue.

>>>>>>I reject your designation of 'mortal peabrains'. I do not view my fellows in such a poor light.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>^^^^^ It does not seem an inaccurate view to recognize that my own human consciousness is circumscribed and attenuated by the vestiges
>>>>of the animal nature (my version of 'the mark of the beast'). I hope one day to be more than what I seem to be today...the hope of something acutely aware of it's humble present status.
>>
>>Sounds like you need to work on self-esteem a little:)
>>
>> Hey now! One moment you portray me as arrogant then you say I need to work on 'self esteem' Come on...you know me well enough by now to have found that I'm neither arrogant nor lacking in a healthy sense of self esteem ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My interactions with 'celestial' personalities
>>>>>>>>>>>>have always been loving and positive...that is all I know based on my own experience.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How is the love expressed? Do you believe that attachments to an unwitting party constitutes love? Do you believe that manipulation via that attachment to be holy or heavenly? What is it the attacher receives in return for his effort? What are his intents - what does he do with the information gleaned from the intrusions. Once these questions have been answer AND proof placed on the table - I might be able to discern whether or not there was any love in the violation of a human beings free will.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>^^^^^There is no manipulation of an 'unwitting party' going on here. Information is freely given and received with no more intrusiveness than the ringing of a telephone with either person maintaining the right to say
>>>>'hey...I'm busy now I'll call you back later'.
>>
>>
>>That's my point. Is the need to feel special so great that one should walk into Hell with eyes wide open?

>><<<<<<< How 'special' is it to accept a job one finds they are qualified
and then trained to do? A valid sense of accomplishment for having worked hard perhaps...augmented by a humble realization that God's grace co-
ordinated everything that has been offered.
Finding 'myself' in Heaven with no 'body' as a spherical blob of energy
with 360 degree vision did seem sort of happenstance at the point at which
it occurred initially.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>***** Your interactions with Old One are telepathic mindlinks...yes?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes
>>>>>>^^^^^ So how is this different except in that your trust of him seems
>>>>to be somewhat limited?
>>>>>>
>>
>>There are big time differences. Mine puts proof on the table. Tangible provings. Money talks and BS walks. He puts the currency of exchange where it can be touched, seen and kicked.

>><<<<<<< For obvious reasons the 'tangible' fails to impress me as much as it may convince others...it is a matter of values.
>>
>>>>>>>>My peace is maintained and nothing occurs without my permission. Jackie was the one who appeared to be undergoing significant distress from the 'attachment' you seemed to believe would be aimed in my direction...
>>>>>>>>that did appear to me to be an unwelcome attack on her from an 'energy' she
>>>>>>>>couldn't handle without your help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Incorrect reading. This came from a different quarter and had nothing to do with you. However, perhaps you might have learned how unpleasant these holy and elevated beings can get when they don't get what they want. I told Jackie in the beginning that being with me wouldn't be easy. Because of her close association with me, she is frequently targeted. In most instances, she has developed the ability to handle it herself. This was an exception.
>>>>>>You might also note, they don't want to play with me and instead chose to prey upon another's mortality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>^^^^^This would seem to be an unfair 'set-up'...
>>>>>>
>>Nothing unfair about it. Jackie was well advised and, as she said, has found the effort 'worth it'.
>>
>>
>>>>>>^^^^^ All of this appears as subjective to me as my situation seems to be to you. I saw no 'beef' of Old One materializing every time he wants to talk to you guys. Frankly from your descriptions of him it might be disconcerting to the other folks around your home if that did occur.
>>
>>He has no need to materialize to talk. However, if you saw no 'beef' there were seven other people who did when HE DID choose to materialize. If your invisible voices can do the same - go thee and do it. There comes a time to put up or shut up. IF your 'beliefs' are, in fact, 'realities', it follows you should be able to convince yours to make an appointment (with me) and do some showing off.

>><<<<<<< You have Mac's #? Call him up and make an appointment convenient for both of you...just ask what you want to know...he can tell you whatever information you think you need if there isn't a good reason not to for now. There is much I must choose not to know at this time so that
I can fulfill an assignment that I accepted. He isn't given to 'showing off'...as far as I know when he drops in to talk to truckers at a roadside inn he looks like one of them...I find the light in motion look far more comforting...it's not difficult to see the 'personality' in there.
Michael's Spirit of Truth is available to everyone all the time...if form
is so important to you I've heard He appears as a 'human' to those who need that or are benefitted in some way by that resemblance. These are
possibly the most appropriate contacts under the circumstances...
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>ensures safety and nothing else can or ever will. That is my understanding of Father's law. (love always works)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Really? I guess Adolph Hitler did a whole lot of loving then. Pardon the sarcasim here but Pollyana wasn't any more real than the tooth fairy.
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>***** Not unless Dennis forgot for a moment who it is he works for and that what He says goes. The Creator of the universe and His designated consort and associates are rarely referred to as 'uninvited guests'. They
>>>>>>>>do have the right to be whereever and with whomever they wish
>>>>>>>>...nevertheless permission is duly asked for and always granted.
>>>>>>>>(even if Immanuel must put Dennis in a headlock to get it :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Whoa....I think you just left the planet. You assume that Michael of Nebadon was attached to you? Not a chance in Heaven or Hell. Furthermore, he is as mortal as you and incurs the limitations of mortality in the bargain. Believe as you will, but we know exactly and precisely where he is
>>>>>>at all times. I have two angelic guardians on him and two nordics 24 hours a day without exception. Intruding upon a person's mortality is so far beyond the boundaries of any acceptable behavior that it carries with it a death penalty. Not even with the apostles did Jesus perform such an endeavor. However, for the sake of arguement, lets say you're right in your assumptions. Prove it!
>>>>
>>>>>>Yes...I did leave the planet. No he isn't a little boy living in Los Angeles...at least not exclusively...We will both have the opportunity for clarification on this...maybe sooner rather than later...but it really is
>>>>not entirely understandable in human terms or timeframes.
>>>>
>>
>>Those who can't prove call it a 'mystery'. There are few things beyond the comprehension of man at his current state of development.
>><<<<<<< Really? Your 'faith' is great!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>+++ Excuse me Dear One...wasn't intolerance and the extermination of that which was inimicable to the established order the initial problem
>>>>>>>>>>>>that has made it necessary for you to feel you have to fight for survival in the first place... >>doesn't this sort of behavior perpetuate it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Let's see. Fighting for my life, perpetuates the conflict with those who would kill me. The obvious solution is to let 'them' (whoever they might be) succeed. Do you see a flaw in this reasoning?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I hate to tell you this Steffani but war does solve problems and resolve conflicts. However, where The Earth is concerned, those uninvited guests remaining here do so in the knowledge that tolerance is one of my practices - until I have a reason not to be tolerant. The list of those reasons is now as long as my leg. The right to exercise soverignity over this world is mine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>***** For whom does war solve problems and resolve conflicts without causing more of the same only differing in forms?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Well, let's see. The American Revolution got the British outta here and today, half the island would give their eye teeth to immigrate here.
>>>>>>Hitler was quashed by virture of war. Most would agree that was a good thing. I could go on for some time but I think you get the idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To avoid conflict and war, in your paradigm, better that Adolf should have succeed in his genocidal plans. The example is as extreme as your exemplar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'll console myself with the fact the list won't be over a yard long yet for a while ...sorry!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Get a history book Steff - the list is way past a yard.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>His story will be corrected...
>>>>
>>His story HAS been corrected although I've not connected the dots for the reader. This soul will not survive his mortality.
>>
>><<<<<<< Yes it has been corrected...that's the first 'gotcha' you've offered me in a while...Thanks:-)
>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>***** You have the option of joining me in making the same decision for a One Power universe NOW...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I made that decision long ago. One Creator Son as absolute dictator and ruler. I'll settle for nothing less. I made my stand long before you were a glimmer in Father's eye.
>>>>
>>>>>>^^^^^Halleluia! At last one thing on which we are in complete agreement.
>>
>>See what happens when you quit sitting on your head:):):)
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Out of time in reality Father has already won.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The out of time reality spawns from the in time reality. They are not separate.
>>>>>>^^^^^This is true...it doesn't always look that way.
>>>>
>>
>>Geez, two agreements in one post - am I on a roll or what!
>>
>><<<<<<< You're doing good "Sweet Thing" ;->

Steffani Murray (07/12/00 at 10:03 am) wrote:

>>
>>Good Grief Cal (to quote Snoopy)
>>Haven't you ever read anything besides the Book of Revelation and the
>>uglier stuff in the Urantia book...there is One Mind to share and its contents won't contaminate the angelic neuronic cell of it that is yours.
>>How on Urth will you ever assuage the endless curious questions of your
>>'groupies'? See...I told you that you'd get groupies way back when .
>>Can I score an occasional point for 'being right'?
>>(you know I won't remember the number!:-)
>>
>>Steff
>>

As I've told you - I don't read the written works of others unless there is a good reason to do so. So Isiaih, Daniel, Ezkiel, Playboy and Hustler are definitely off my agenda. The only reason I read anything (like the UB)
is to find out what OTHERS are talking about. I know what I'm talking about:)

Incidentally, as a matter of trivia, I accumulated over 5000 written works for my son's use as reference materials for school. One might allow this is a substantial library available at the finger tips. When I realized that I was walking around with a massive database of timeline information, I also realized that the answers to most things were already 'in there'. Thus, I access it almost exclusively. Anything else is second hand.

Cal (07/12/00 at 10:55 am) wrote:

>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What you describe here is an abduction.
>>>>>><<<<<<< Not hardly...what happened was caused by a decision ...an act of will on my part. The 'lower dimensional' construct of the spaceship was a helpful means of facilitating my own decision to return to 'this 3D world'
>>
>>You twist words with the skill of a bureaucrat.

>>##### There are some who refer to me as a 'wordsmith' but there is no need to be insulting

OK Cal...
So aren't Daniel, Isaiah and Ezekiel and everyone else for that matter 'others' who know what they are talking about...at least in their own minds -just like you? So what's the problem with Playboy and Hustler
...you don't have to read the articles just look at the pictures? ;-)

Ahem, who do you think told these individuals what they knew:)

As for the other books, I have no need of a book to see a naked woman.

Cal (07/12/00 at 12:47 pm) wrote:

sam (07/15/00 at 12:04 am) wrote:

>>lost time?

Hi Sam...I've been told that the purpose of time is to learn not to waste it. So the effort to use it well is wise. As soon as this lesson is learned time as we know it will be at an end. This does not necessarily mean we must be perpetually busy human 'doings' rather than 'beings'.
Communion with Father is always worthy of our undivided attention as we are able to give Him the gift of a Life shared with Him...we are ever in His Presence whether we are aware of this fact or not. "There is nothing hidden from the eyes of He with whom we have to do"...

I start getting worried about myself when I find things I can agree on with Steffani:)

Re: Lost Time

In a universe that has a very long timeline - 'manana' is a prevailing mindset. There are a few of us who believe that each minute is precious and not to be wasted.

I think Sam's comment, however, was more centered towards a question of abduction. There were none. Aside from the fact that the place was well protected from all quarters, I stood watch in my current dimensional element. There were no threats.

Cal (07/17/00 at 4:46 pm) wrote:

>>One man's delusion is another person's reality.

Well that's the truth in a nutshell, Folks!

>>Personally, I prefer my delusions, in as much, as they have some very interesting side affects on everyone else's reality:)

Interesting observation...and I thought I was the only one that noticed;-)

>>Cal

Only Love...Steffani

Cal wrote:

"Public joking probably isn't going to be in the cards".

Are you saying that in the official role of Planetary Prince
you won't be as much fun anymore...
oh hell...might as well vote for the Melchizedek then.

Steffani Murray (07/19/00 at 4:05 pm) wrote:

>>Cal wrote:
>>
>>"Public joking probably isn't going to be in the cards".
>>
>>Are you saying that in the official role of Planetary Prince
>>you won't be as much fun anymore...
>>oh hell...might as well vote for the Melchizedek then.
>>
>>Steffani ;-)

One runs the risks of misunderstanding and let's face it, I'm not here to tell jokes on Leno.

Regarding Davids new search engine, I found a few things on me other than the usual UB tripe.

http://www.tje.net/para/documents/ufos_and_religion.htm
A copy of one of my writings from hq.

http://www.us75.com/fallprnc.htm
A urantia style song that would have been better if it had been written to
the tune of Yankee Doodle.

http://home.sprynet.com/~mindful/whyevil.htm
This fellow aligns me with Mao and Hitler. What a guy

http://deermoss.dhs.org/~nuthouse/eac/links.htm
This is the evil athiests homepage.

Athiest? I must have missed something here.

cinde5 (07/20/00 at 8:37 pm) wrote:
>>Do you really think the World is ready for you to *come out*?

What an interesting question cinde5...
I really liked what Cal said about the title Planetary Prince being an entry on resume...

It would seem reasonable to me that perhaps the most significant qualification for the job would be for the person destined to be in charge
to really understand what kind of life the ordinary people of his realm
experience in their day to day lives...
how much shit they have to put up with etc.

I guess the thing I admire most about Cal is that he has been willing to do this.(despite the calculated risk to a massive (& male:-) ego.

I was very grateful to have had the opportunity to spend time with this
man to see with how much grace and humility he managed to handle situations
in which he was subjected to the ordinary disrespect and indignities of the
kind that life on earth throws at most of us average people everyday.
This might seem a a strange quality to place above angelic rank or anything
else as an appropriate highest value determinant of a right to authority but to me it deserves to be at the very top of the list.

One of the reasons I am most willing to acknowlege the sovereignty
of Christ Michael is because of the 7 bestowal lives he experienced as one of his various created orders of beings. As time/space creator he has chosen to be with us creatures rather than ever and always above us.
According to the UB he has been incarnated as an emergency corps Melchizedek Son(the universe equivalent of an EMT), a primary Lanonandek Son where he served as a system sovereign during an earlier rebellion in Nebadon in the Palonia system (where he would willingly have shared power again with the rebellious ruler had this Lanonandek been willing to work things out with Immanuel...he continued to reject Paradise rule but still acknowledged Michael as just and merciful), a Material Son, a seraphim, an ascendant mortal, a morontia mortal, and lastly as a mortal human being born as a helpless baby. He chose to experience 'down and dirty'.

This is only a paraphrase of the bibical quote mind you but the essence of
what he said at one point to his apostles was...Sheesh Guys, how long am I going to have to put up with your shenanigans? So mortality was challenging even for him as a man of the realm.

So how much more so must it be for Cal...Bless his heart!
If you happen to find him in his SOB mode for a moment...
try not to forget how lovable (and funny) he can be.
(while you guys are throwing around the grandiose and pretentious titles)
remember this is a real person with a difficult job and a lot of responsibilities...

Well Allie...to the best of my recollection your words were to this effect:
"How are we ever going to tell anyone about this? These sculptures...we've seen UFO's...we've been to 6 and seen Father...this has been one helluva weekend!"
It was the incredible energy and enthusiasm with which you said this that prompted happy spontaneous laughter on our part...and my comment to Cal...
" Now if only she could post THAT exactly like she just said it!"
It was readily evident that you will "never be the same" as before you made this 'pilgrimage'. Apparently the considerable effort you had expended to make this journey half way around the world for our amazing
'adventure' had been well worth it to you.
Overhearing what you said only gave me a wonderful opportunity to rejoice in the happiness that you had found in the experience as well as my own...
this was a laugh with you... not at the expense of a new found friend :-)

Dennis (07/28/00 at 8:50 am) wrote:

>>By George I think he's got it! All Father wants of his children is for them to have fun playing together nicely and getting along.
>>Dennis

Steffani:

Do I hear a hearty AMEN from the congregation?

Hi All...
Reflecting on the possible validity of these statements brought to mind
an experience I had at work the other day.(in case anyone reading this doesn't know my full-time job is to do medical assessments for intake on new clients at the county alcohol and drug rehab facility) For a corporate environment it is an amazingly spiritual place because people come there for the purpose of finding their way out of their self-created hells... fully realizing they need their 'Higher Power's' help and are open to accepting it at that point of desparation. There are a few who do find their way to freedom through the 12-step programs.(real miracles!)

Anyway I had just arrived in my office and was getting organized for the day when a man I had never seen showed up at my door wearing a 'Service Master' shirt.(technically these guys are our clean up crew but most of them seem to also be masters of friendly attitudes and good cheer as well)
One of them named Victor had also been the 'angel' who delivered the messageI'd been asking for relating to 'stay or go' in Columbus after the break-up of a relationship that had been the reason I had moved here almost 2 years ago...and triggered a very 'cosmic moment' when I could really see how very beautiful Father's Children are going about their day to day lives.

So it was with joyful anticipation that I might be in for an unexpected encounter of the spiritual kind that I began to chat with 'Clinton' to get
acquainted.I was not to be disappointed...there was a surprise lesson awaiting me.(and Clinton is a beautiful name without association to our
current goof-ball president... who I can also appreciate on the basis of his typical ego-driven pathetically abject as yet unredeemed humaness)
After the usual gettin' to know ya intros Clinton proceeded to tell me of the profound experiences his wife and her sister had just had at a local
womens' recovery conference.( oh goodie! Just the kind of story I love to listen to about the real life transformational power of God )

Then came the shocker I must have needed to hear! Clinton began to tell me how much he had enjoyed and appreciated a talk given by one of the preachers on TBS and had I ever listened to him ? I had to say no I don't have much time to watch TV while working 2 jobs. I didn't have the heart to tell him of my own prejudices... that I had written off all of those guysas capable of inspiring me only with the urge to puke.
I got real quiet and listened to what came of his inspiration which could best be described as 'preaching' about the goodness of God in his own life. I can truly say that I was neither 'bored' nor offended nor felt 'one upped' by what was shared with me. In fact I felt blessed and edified and thankful for what I had heard.
The real revelation was the truth of the statement Cal quotes so often "different strokes for different folks" and that those ministries I had chosen to discount and despise were being used by others for their benefit... and they were grateful and appreciative of those preachers' efforts that seemed so crass and commercial to me.

Only Love.
Steffani.

Cal (07/29/00 at 11:57 pm) wrote:

>>24. Those who preach at you do so because:
>>
>>a. They lack the ability the talk 'with you'.
>>b. They are unsure in the correctness of their own faith and beliefs they feel that saying the same 'holy' thing to you 50 times in a row will make them believe.
>>c. They don't have anything else to say except 'by rote' repetitions.
>>d. They think they're buying an insurance policy for judgement.
>>e. They assume they know better and you don't.
>>f. They assume they are closer to God and you aren't.
>>g. They assume they're smart and you aren't.
>>h. They lack the ability to consider they might be wrong. This would force self examination and how can one be found flawed with the same one has already assumed 'holiness'.
>>i. They get paid for it.
>>j. They have nothing better to do.
>>k. They don't mind boring you or offending you with their assumed holiness.
>>
>>Cal

Steffani:

I'm afraid you missed the point of #24 entirely. At issue was not the receiver but the sender. A. sets the template, that which follows relates to A. Ie: Talking AT people rather than talking WITH people.

With regards to your post. One example rarely a reality makes.

Cal

Cal (07/30/00 at 7:14 pm) wrote:

>>
>>>>
>>>>By the way,
>>>>I do think there is a time and place and good purpose for didactics as well as dialogue when one is in a perpetual teaching/learning mode
>>>>...which I am.
>>>>I think once I've learned everything I get to go HOME!!!
>>>>(but I'm having fun and not really in any great hurry however)
>>>>
>>>>Only Love.
>>>>Steffani.
>>
>>Steff:
>>
>>Add to your gift for missing the point not listening.

>>Cal...Don't you know that I listen to whatever you say to me very carefully. I think on it deeply and reflect on it often.

>>a. 'Teachers' are annointed by either Father or Son.
>>b. Anything less is arrogant presumption.
>>c. Proof of competence is required beyond a disertation of 'holy' words.

>>This is all true...I agree completely.

>>Abraham and Moses, for example, estabished their qualifications to their own people through a variety of very real, in your face, proofs. Jesus did the same. The Apostles did likewise. The annointed ones will always have the ability to proffer proofs. The arrogant serve only words.

>>Well I have never thought of Abraham as a teacher...more of a warrior/
businessman. He had Machiventa Melchizedek with him in human form as his teacher and didn't always listen to him real well.
The Isrealites didn't listen well to Moses either despite multiple
'miracles'.
Lots of people didn't believe in Jesus or the Apostles and their reward
for faithfulness in this world was dishonor and death.
Jesus told the Jews of His day that they had killed all the true prophets
God had sent them. People always get pissed when they don't want to listen to the message so they attack the messenger. So what's new ?

>>d. Do you not assume that those who listen to you want you to 'teach' them?
Nope ;-) First I ask Spirit...whether to share and what?

>>e. If so, is not this assumption made without benefit of query to the listener?
>>not so I pay attention and ask the person if it's in a real life setting.
A Thank You or a hug is often the way I know His love was shared through
whatever was said or done...it's often an energetic 'takeover' while it is happening and surprises me as well. Even Jesus declared "of my own self I can do nothing...the Father within me does the work." He still works through people who are willing to serve Him by serving their brothers.

When I share through posts to lists I do get a lot of positive feedback through private e-mails...often from 'lurkers' I never heard of who tell me that my efforts are appreciated. There are even a few people on this list who say they feel that they have benefitted from the interactions
we have engaged in...maybe including the times we did not think we were
communicating effectively.

>>For me, I don't presume to teach anyone. I tell the truth as I know it to be and proffer proofs that I am competent to the knowing. I'm content to leave the teaching to The Son.

>>Then it must be the Son's Spirit who shares through you too or Father's.
I say this because of several souls who have related to me how much they have been helped by your insights and 'take' on things they had asked you about...and how much they appreciated your pragmatic wisdom and advice.

>>To date - not one person has ever asked me to teach them anything and I don't. The last person to ask me for a teaching was my kid and I taught him how to play guitar.

>>Really? Well I have certainly asked you about a great many things and have learned much I consider of great value from you...whether you counted
what you were doing as teaching or not. I think everyone teaches in every
moment just by being who they are. It doesn't have to be a big deal formal
offically Sanhedrin sanctioned event...it just sort of unfolds.

"all I've got is a red guitar...3 chords and the truth...
all I've got is a red guitar...the rest is up to you" U 2

Good Night Sweet Prince...rest well. }:-)

Only Love.
Steffani

>>Cal
>>
>>
>>
>>

Steffani:

Where you're concerned, I give up.

Cal

Steffani Murray (07/31/00 at 6:02 pm) wrote:

>>
>>Cal
>>
>>Where you are concerned
>>...I'll never give up.
>>I can wait. (\O/)
>> / \
>>Only Love.
>>Steffani

You'll have to.

Well Steff:

Some people would consider a walking talking angel who happens to be the planetary prince something other than a little bit strange. I spent 2 hours with a man and wife who came here from pennsylvania a couple days ago just as you came. They didn't get a tour but they did get to chat. Seeds planted, grow. The operative word here is 'planetary' as in global. In fact, your query just gave me an addition 1.d to corollaries - Don't hassle the small stuff.

Your query would seem to indicate a lack of awareness of just what is going on or its scope. If you haven't gotten it by now - I guess you'll just have to wait for the movie:)

Steffani Murray (08/02/00 at 5:50 am) wrote:

>>
>>Well Cal...Most of the people I've met on this planet would consider
>>anyone who tells them that he is a walking talking angel a little bit strange. No one who hasn't read the Urantia book has a clue what a 'Planetary Prince' even is. Most of them would have difficulty with the idea that the title did not pass to Michael of Nebadon during His bestowal
>>incarnation as Jesus of Nazareth. Or that a mortal incarnation of Caligastia would still be attempting to fulfill that office.

Really? Well, the 'prince of the world', comment in the Bible suffices.

>>
>>Think of the difficulty Tess and Monica on the TV show 'Touched by an Angel'...appearing as ordinary mortals of the realm...have in convincing the people they are dealing with that they are actually angels

how nice they got some special affects:) They get a 'light' - I do ufos.
Go figure

...they have to employ special light effects and everything. I use a TV show only to suggest where the majority of the culture is known to be on the credibility scale...not to confuse the issue with an even stranger reality.

Over 70% of Americans believe in 1. Angels and 2. Ufos. Substantially more than ever voted for Bill Clinton.

>>Most do believe in angels of course...it is merely unusual to find them running around as ordinary people. I think most Americans do believe that is possible sometimes...just not often in everyday life situations.
>>

And how should we be running around?

>>The Urantia Foundation oversteps its' boundaries whenever it concerns itself with more than publishing, translating and preserving the text inviolate. Your version of several stories is quite different from the
>>UB's take on these matters but that is not a situation directly within the scope of its' designated activities. It is perhaps a personal concern of
>>those who want the UB message to be viewed with integrity and not be associated with weirdness that Gabriel of Sedona's writings and community activities become disturbing.
>>

Well, as I'm not selling and they are - the issue of credibility comes into play. As to Toni of Sedoni - if it hadn't been the UB, he'd have found some other material to source his cult.

>>It is only after conferring with the 'Management' that the cosmic significance and importance of what is occuring here became of serious interest to me. Your piece of the puzzle is of ancillary concern as 'global'.There are I believe 36 other planets involved.

The House of Caligastia counts at 29 worlds. I kept the exemplar local for your benefit. Too bad your 'management' doesn't have much to manage.
Kind of a like a cult leader without followers.

>>I would very much appreciate seeing everyone back in communication but not if that entails further disintegration of that which I consider of infinite value and that includes individual personalities. Contrary to what you insist on believing I would not be in favor of harm to anyone.

I've seen your 'friends' less than glorious endeavors. So I'll pass on the 'amens'.

>>From the top down to the bottom up. I was looking at the people who are as I am at the moment and the roles being assigned to them as actors in this 'movie' by you at this time. I do need help to understand how they are perceiving all this 'stuff'.
>>

Well, I only speak for me. The perceptions of others are their call. As for roles. I haven't handed any to anyone. Your role, on the other hand, was offered and accepted from elements not my own. Look to yourself for your understandings. I do have one generalized perception.

The vast majority of the Urs would much rather stand, fight and die with their own than with an enemy alien and their accomplices and no amount of holy double talk will lure them to be different than they are.

Semper Fidelis - applies well here.

Cal

No more than yours understand the soul of chaos. If its an education in the internet you wish - it is available on the internet.

Steffani:

In your fashion you continue to ignore the basics.

1. The UB, is not and can never be, Father's messenger of 'the word'.
2. It fails the test of annointment. As do those individuals who presume to speak in His name.
3. It was not delivered in the flesh by The Son
4. While Father may, or may not, feel as you purport, your lack of annointing as His messenger disqualifies you as His teacher.
5. Such an offering was made to you and rejected.
6. Individuals choose where they stand, not Father.

Steffani Murray (08/05/00 at 11:15 pm) wrote:

>>
>>Dearest Cal...
>>Teaching is a service assignment given to me by the Son.

Fine - Prove it. The planet has many would be teachers who all say the same thing. How about a 'little' miracle. The apostles performed them. They were annointed as teachers, personally by The Son. If, in fact, you are so annointed by the Son, the miracle game shouldn't be too hard. File this under 'put up or shut up'.

You're right though, there are some that I just don't play well with. Blasphemy, presumption and arrogance are not subjects I have a great deal of patience with.

>>If He did not live in me I would have no Life.
>>Anointing is given by the Spirit of Truth.

A minute ago it was awarded by The Son. Okay - one spirit of truth with fries if you please. My front door in twenty minutes would be dandy or don't you deliver?

>>I have chosen to accept my role in God's Plan.
>>Your lack of recognition of this fact says far more
>>about you than it does about me.

Proof, proof, proof. Enough 'word smithing'. Let's see the script of the 'plan'. As you presume to know His mind - proof to the plan should be obvious. Mine are carved all over the world. Where are yours?

>>I reject no true offering.
>>Nor will I reject you.
>>It will be revealed who stands with Father.
>>

Doo dah doo dah.

After the first 100 times - this sort of word play gets a little trite and my patience is thin. A new act is in order. Better yet, a reality check.
Until and unless you're willing to show the beef, perhaps you should confine yourself to the God given role of a human being who still has yet to clear judgement. I'd add that your 'friends' are not in the judging loop - mine are.

Cal

Cal (08/06/00 at 4:56 am) wrote
>>
>>
>>Fine - Prove it. The planet has many would be teachers who all say the same thing. How about a 'little' miracle. The apostles performed them. They were annointed as teachers, personally by The Son. If, in fact, you are so annointed by the Son, the miracle game shouldn't be too hard. File this under 'put up or shut up'.

>>+++ well Cal...the fact that your patience has limits and mine is
limitless is certainly a little miraculous. Perhaps all who say the same
thing hear the same Teacher?
>>
>>You're right though, there are some that I just don't play well with. Blasphemy, presumption and arrogance are not subjects I have a great deal of patience with.

>>+++ If these subjects no longer please you try to enroll in different courses next term.
Kindness, forgiveness and acceptance might be more fun and improve your
playground social skills as well. ;-)))
>
>>
>>A minute ago it was awarded by The Son. Okay - one spirit of truth with fries if you please. My front door in twenty minutes would be dandy or don't you deliver?

>>+++Yes...When He knocks on the door it is up to you whether to open it and let Him in...or invite Him to join you for dinner!

>>
>>
>>Proof, proof, proof. Enough 'word smithing'. Let's see the script of the 'plan'. As you presume to know His mind - proof to the plan should be obvious. Mine are carved all over the world. Where are yours?

>>+++ Words are a gift it is given poets and prophets to give...
Man and nature have been carving on the rocks all over the planet
since time immemorial...to interpret this as having personal
significance to just you proves only that you are a legend
in your own mind.
The plan for me is in my mind as well...
but there is no way that I could 'prove' it has relevance to you
or anyone else unless they were to ask me to define their reality
for them...and defining Reality is no one's perogative but Father's.
>>>>
>>
>>Doo dah doo dah.
>>
>>After the first 100 times - this sort of word play gets a little trite and my patience is thin. A new act is in order. Better yet, a reality check.
>>Until and unless you're willing to show the beef, perhaps you should confine yourself to the God given role of a human being who still has yet to clear judgement. I'd add that your 'friends' are not in the judging loop - mine are.

>>+++ Yes I will continue my God given role of a human being until He
asks me to do whatever He has in Mind for me next.
You are quite correct that my 'friends' would never presume to judge
Father's creations...
unless one of them would happen to be a magisterial son it is not an assigned function.

This continuous request to see rotting cow carcasses as signs and wonders does sound a lot like Matthew and Luke 4:3 though.

Only More Love.
Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/06/00 at 7:14 pm 

These are my obvservations of the last several months.

What you've seen here is not uncommon. Let it stand as a template for measurement in the future. I offer these generalized observations.

1. A generalized Melchezidek (ie: universal format) is available in the presentations. Rarely the issuance of any vulgarity but a great deal of cleverness in the use of words. In this format, the distance between two points is rarely a straight line.

2. A general inability to answer direct questions with direct answers.
Instead an 'around your elbow to get at your wrist' approach is used never landing on the direct head of the subject matter.

3. A great deal of 'two stepping'. Deflection of the point to a 'by rote'
rendition of 'holy' words.

4. Never any offerings of proof.

5. Ignoring demands for proof and retreating into the holy word 'blind'.

6. Ignoring reality for chosen beliefs regardless of factual material to the contrary.

7. Ignoring any presentation that does not fit to the holy word paradigm.

8. Assumptions of anointment by the Almighty to holy service.

9. Even though lacking the minimum qualifications already established by The Son.

10. Following 8 and 9 - efforts rise to the level of blashphemy.

11. Following 8, 9 , and 10, the words contradicted by the facts rise to the level of hypocrisy.

12. Demands for provings to 8 and 9 ignored infer an inability to produce proofs and those facts are within the knowledge of the individual. Continuance in the same vein constitutes a tacit admittance and rases to the levels of 8 and 9 with the additional element; the deliberate commission of grievous sin against the Dieties in whose name(s) the individual purports to operate.

I offer this analysis based upon my knowledge.

The universe and its true believer agents are desperate. Long ago they divorced themselves of the ability to engage in original thought. Instead, they buried their intellect and spirits in the emptiness of jingoistic rhetoric which then can only be repeated over and over. They have no knowledge of the true heart of Earth's populations. This is their weakness and our strength.

Just as those who went to the Lair had trouble seeing the carvings at first, by the time the journey was ended - they were experienced. So also it is with the identification of universal agents. It was for this moment in time that I ultimately endured the trials of earth. So I could, with abject honesty, state I am one of you and in the journey know all there was to be known about the heart and soul of mankind.

The exemplars witnessed here are, in my opinion, common and, given the experience of seeing, easily identifiable. There are other agents not so 'common'. These are arrived in the 1970's in borrowed skin suits and are a murderous and dangerous lot. It falls to me to tend to these. Their interests sink far below the issues of simple delusion and distraction and they target me alone.

It is the nature of evil to wrap itself in agreeable clothing. Those willing to sell their souls, be it to Satan or universal equivalents are deemed to be pitiable people. Those who are not so inclined have no choice but to continue on their own journeys. One can offer to minister to the needs of such people yet - once the deal is struck - they are beyond hope of any salvation except for the direct intervention of Father. It serves no logical purpose then to waste either time or resources on such people.
They are in Father's hands alone. We leave with them our sorrow for their poor choices and continue onward.

The designating factors here should not be focused on 'those who disagree with me'. Plenty of people can and will do so. This is not a service to my ego nor do I play God in these matters. During the course of the last few months, my endeavors were calculated to show, demonstrate, and establish a firm factual foundation. One that the continuing participant in these dialogues could use to formulate their own opinions and draw their own conclusions.

Nor is this an indictment of any single individual. From this point on, as the desperation factors grow, those universal types of poor intent will become bolder and more obvious. This will not be the product of any strength of conviction or courage but of pure and raw fear. It has always been one of my axioms not to push anyone to the point of desperation as logic and reason are always the first victims. However, the circumstances allow for no quarter with these transdimensional elements. All offerings of peaceful resolution have been refused with all groups, except elements of the rebellion, choosing not to accept Father's directed offerings.

The bloodletting has begun and the Angel of Death rises once again to an ancient role.

As it was written, so will it be.

David Price (08/07/00 at 2:47 pm) wrote:

>>Steff - I am a mortal who accepts the parameters for Asendancy laid
>>down by Father.

>>+++Yes Dave...this is honorable.

>>I listen to Fathers truthsayer, the only one i know - the Planetary
>>Prince of Ur. Like my life depends on it. I feel good at heart because
>>Father has answer's for my prayer of what is the truth.

>>+++Cal is blessed by Father to have such a staunch and loyal supporter...
and you are blessed to have found an answer to your prayer for truth that
feels good and right in your heart.

I am blessed to know the others as well...and I value the truth that all share according to their own undertandings. One Truth as a great gem radiating its light through many finely cut facets. I could never choose between or forsake any of my wonderful brothers...each the precious Son of Our One Holy Father. Each contributes a radiance that blesses my soul. I recognize each as a part of the Whole Self that would be forever incomplete if any One were missing...yet that is impossible because
Creator's Will is the Completion of Perfection that includes All.

Hi Chuck.

Well when it comes to the exchanges between Stef and some of the others
who post here, I am not too surprised at the "hostility". I don't read
the UB forums so maybe I don't have the whole story, or more properly
I should say I don't have the whole perpetuation of propoganda.

As far as Stef goes, her posts are like reading the UB. It seems her
belief is restricted to the UB and in the same way that there are no updates to that
book, there is no original thought being communicated through her fingers.

I would have thought that by now considering all she has been through
and all her postings here. We would read something written from her heart.
This doesnt seem to be the case. My perception is that she represents a
warrior being held out by the Foundation. I speculate this is an attempt
at being covert but the cover is quite transparent from where I sit.
My guess is her assignment is to find the kink in the armor, something
inconsistent, primary objective is perhaps to catch Cal in a lie and
expose him as a phoney. You might think of it as Cal got out his big
stick and poked the nest known as The Foundation and Stef is the effect
of Cal's action.(very universal eh?) She either has a fantastic understanding and recall
of the UB and its teachings or she regularly consults or has meetings
dedicated to activities of Cal and his people.

I have found her relationship with Cal and this forum very interesting
for this reason. Ever since I read Cal's stuff for the first time I
wished someone would step up and practice relative civility and attempt
the very mission Stef has undertaken. I respect her knowledge and have
great respect for her ability. In my opinion she has fought the good fight
she has found no achilles heal, no lie, nothing inconsistent in other words
she has failed in her mission. This was somewhat apparent a couple of weeks
ago however either her superiors or her own motivation the quest continues.
I think it is always better to fight and run away, live to fight another day.
In this case the fight goes on and on and on and on..etc. At some point
shortly after it sinks to the level it is now, I personally will just
give up reading anything she writes because she is losing credibility
with me. I have appreciated her efforts, she is what I wished for but
there comes a time to admit failure. Civility should demand to do
so before hostility breaks out. If she wishes to press on in the face
of a loosing effort so be it. I have said before, I will not ban anybody
from this forum ever. Freewill rules.

I think the Foundation must accept Cal is the same personality written
about in the UB. Now the question becomes what will they do about it?
Since he has passed the dis-credibility test, their warrior has failed.
What is the next move? I think panic may begin to set in, this will
present an unknown chioce in what they do next. They should think carefully
about it, the wrong move will in fact bring down the foundation for false
teaching about true propaganda. There is a thin line between pride and confidence.
One will come before the fall, the other comes on the road to success.

>>Chuck 2 (08/10/00 at 1:06 am) wrote:
>>
>>>>Oh my gosh!
>>>>I can't believe what I just read.
>>>>I'm practically in tears.
>>>>I thought this was a forum for the discovery of true enlightenment.
>>>>Or has it suddenly become just another soap opera?
>>>>That's not dialogue.
>>>>It's just petty back biting meant to serve nothing more than building all your egos.
>>>>What's really going on here??????????
>>>>Can we say tollerance and compassion???????
>>>>I'm sure we can.
>>>>Come on guys,where IS the love?
>>>>'Cause I'm sure not feeling it here today.
>>>>What's next?
>>>>Pistols at ten paces?
>>>>You know,one of the reasons I enjoy comming to this website is the sense of comradery that you all seem to enjoy with one another.
>>>>I'm certain you'll all agree,it's a rare thing on the internet.
>>>>I for one would hate to see it vanish.
>>>>This used to be one of the few places where you could get away from all the hate for awhile.
>>>>What happened?
>>>>I know it's just my opinion but would you at least think about it before you backlash on me?
>>>>
>>>>Submited with real concerns
>>>>Chuck 2
>>>>O.F.W
>>
>>
>>I really Don't know What to say about this Chuck2...
>>
>>cinde5

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 12:12 pm

Caligastia: 

Folks:
The glibness of your post aside, I have to ask, where did you get the idea that I run around going 'holy holy holy' all day? Chuck, you drop in here so infrequently - or rather post infrequently - you may not have a handle on the history and the extensive amount of time I've spent with Steffani on these subjects. For my own part, I feel absolutely no hostility towards her. As a person, I find her quick witted and enjoyable to be around. Her mission and objectives are a different story. I think Greg has a pretty good handle on things.

My instructions, from Father, were to place His words before them so as to enable a choice based on truth rather than delusion. This I did. The choices involved also involve consequences. With the word personally handed to them and rejected, they've decided the path for the subsequent actions, not I.

Outfits like Mufon never catch ufos or aliens because their membership carries the post abduction programming of don't look, don't know, don't tell. The Urantia Foundation also is riddled with universal operatives functioning via attachments. These attachments are volunatary but serve to keep the organization and its people on track as propaganda agents for the universe. Their call, their choice.

From my vantage point the foundation is an irrelevancy. They had one chance to insure the continuity. That chance was to get in step with the truth rather than the propaganda. when the truth is on stage versus a dead book, the book will fall by the wayside.

Steffani came with agendas. That's okay. I knew she would be coming and expected such an agent.

I had a point in making my posts of what you expect and look for using Steffani and a model and exemplar of many months duration. The goal was not to trash Steffani but to 1. identify the existence of the attached agent and 2. to expose the methodologies and behaviors so as to make these more readily identifiable in the future. Not for me, but for others.

Its axiomatic that you don't take a knife to a shoot out. Furthermore, you don't take 'holy words' to fight a war. Steffani, voluntarily acts as an agent for one leg of a three legged stool. Her side chooses to be in conflict with the other two parties and they do use more violent means than just Steff's holy words. These 'means' will not become fully known, generally, until the crimes trials after the war in heaven.

The efforts at deceptions will grow in the future. Thus it served good purpose to let the people at large have an understanding of the how and why of the workings. Earth's greatest strength is the fact that a facist universe can not, and never will, have an understanding of the heart and soul of man. These are desperate people and their desperation is going to lead them into some very poor endeavors.

Cal

David Price (08/10/00 at 11:09 am) wrote:

>>
>>Fascinating essay by Greg, there are issues here he has written, that i
>>did not understand. Like Steff being point person for the U.F. I belive
>>Cal allowed for the pokeing around. To Chuck i would like to say - my
>>hostile words for Steff were used in the mind set of opposing (opposite)
>>of her views. I think Steff is rideing the wrong pony and should dismount.
>>I think it sad such a very bright person is so hamstrung, her heels
>>must be sore.
>>
>> Dave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 2:54 pm 

Steffani Murray:

O.K. Greg...
I had already told you guys I would quit the UB B.S. but I did have a few words to say to David about that last little diatribe before I was 'outta
here'. Then I found a page when I tried to access this forum stating...
basically "can't get there from here...contact list server to find out
what you did to cause this to happen." It sure seemed to me that was your way of saying we don't want to hear from you anymore...this went on for over a day with no other computer problems. I could even access the website without difficulty. Obviously the 'problem' is no longer there.

If you haven't heard 'original' thoughts from me you sure as heck weren't paying attention or have a short memory. We had an exchange about 'cults'
and a few other things which had nothing to do with the UB. You are making
quite a few invalid statements in what you have said here.

If Cal doesn't appreciate the things said about him in the UB you should realize telling falsehoods about me in your commentary here on your message board is character assassination of the very same kind...just that this is a bit less cosmic in scope.

It is also really hypocritical in that you guys had planned at least for a while to not even let me see it much less respond to it inspite of your statement below "I will not ban anyone from this forum ever". It may have been a short time out of 'ever' but each day as we live it counts as far as I can tell as important. Exclusion and rejection are also not what I expected to find here so it was an unpleasant surprise to say the least.

I will correct your erroneous statements below. Freewill offers you the right to believe or not...I do know the truth about me. Of course I have said some of this before and it wasn't believed. That is on you.

Greg (08/10/00 at 11:04 am) wrote:

>>Hi Chuck.
>>
>>Well when it comes to the exchanges between Stef and some of the others
>>who post here, I am not too surprised at the "hostility". I don't read
>>the UB forums so maybe I don't have the whole story, or more properly
>>I should say I don't have the whole perpetuation of propoganda.

>>I will address the 'hostile' response to the person involved.

>>As far as Stef goes, her posts are like reading the UB. It seems her
>>belief is restricted to the UB and in the same way that there are no updates to that
>>book, there is no original thought being communicated through her fingers.

>>Greg...I have been reading the UB for 18 years thinking that what it says is basically true including its 'take' on the rebellion and the
'personalities' involved in it...including Cal. The UB is well written and
consistent. It has very much influenced my thinking about the spiritual universe as well as the material creation. Nevertheless I was open to
consider that what it said could be less than the whole truth in several areas.

I have studied 'religious' teachings from all over the world since I was very young avidly and with passionate interest. I would identify my main devotional path as A Course in Miracles which teaches 'direct experience'. It is this I have embraced with my whole mind and being.

My thoughts have always been that this 'sacred text' is a direct gift from
Christ Michael to us in this sector of the local universe as a corrective measure to 'the separation' to put us back in touch with Father in continuous communion which He demonstrated as possible while here as Jesus.

I looked at the UB as coming from the superuniverse level as an informational 'revelation' because we've been out of the communication
circuits for the past 200,000 years due to the system rebellion. It is written to the human condition as it exists still believing in ego and evil and clearly states it is only telling us what the authors' think is good for us to be told.

Anyway my thought system is founded on the idea that God is a loving Father and all the universe is His basically happy family except for an
inexplicable insurrection here and there occasionally in one of the Creator Sons'and Creative Daughters' evolutionary time/space realms.

Then last December I found Cal's website...read some of it and realized what it said is very different from what is in the UB which I have believed for a long time to be true so I just filed it in the 'isn't
that interesting but it figures bin'. The tone of the UB about the rebellion and a few other topics has been disquieting to me at times.

When Cal showed up on UBRON I thought it would be a good opportunity to pick his brain for his side of the story. This was a personal mission of mine in search of truth and understanding. Unfortunately it derailed because of an inordinate need of the nitpickey intellectuals that hang out there to overload their logic circuits debating the human vs. cosmic identity issue with him.
The fact that he hasn't read much of the book also meant the frame of reference for communication on that basis wasn't workable either.

>>I would have thought that by now considering all she has been through
>>and all her postings here. We would read something written from her heart.

You have...often...sorry you missed it!

>>This doesnt seem to be the case. My perception is that she represents a
>>warrior being held out by the Foundation. I speculate this is an attempt
>>at being covert but the cover is quite transparent from where I sit.
>>My guess is her assignment is to find the kink in the armor, something
>>inconsistent, primary objective is perhaps to catch Cal in a lie and
>>expose him as a phoney. You might think of it as Cal got out his big
>>stick and poked the nest known as The Foundation and Stef is the effect
>>of Cal's action.(very universal eh?) She either has a fantastic understanding and recall
>>of the UB and its teachings or she regularly consults or has meetings
>>dedicated to activities of Cal and his people.

I have told you in other posts where I stand in the Urantia movement political issues. I do not have much interest and delete these posts on UBRON. I'm o.k. with Harry having the ambition and money to take them on. You and Cal have resisted or ignored facts I have offered on these topics. I really don't give a flying fig newton but preferring your own old stagnant opinions and not looking objectively at new information is a
sign of having closed your minds.

I do have a lot of the teachings integrated into my mind with at least
some degree of understanding because of years of studying them with appreciation of their very interesting content. I have told Cal before that I really do not think anyone at the Urantia Foundation will take any
of his contentions very seriously. I have heard through the years that they have a special file cabinet for these types of letters. I'm not saying this to be mean or tick anybody off but they will view this as frootloopy...sorry but that is 'reality' to those rather 'conservative' guys. Their comeuppance may come sooner rather than later but not because of Cal.

>>
>>I have found her relationship with Cal and this forum very interesting
>>for this reason. Ever since I read Cal's stuff for the first time I
>>wished someone would step up and practice relative civility and attempt
>>the very mission Stef has undertaken. I respect her knowledge and have
>>great respect for her ability. In my opinion she has fought the good fight
>>she has found no achilles heal, no lie, nothing inconsistent in other words
>>she has failed in her mission. This was somewhat apparent a couple of weeks
>>ago however either her superiors or her own motivation the quest continues.

You have completely misinterpreted my mission...and who my Superiors really are...it is as I have stated. None have provided my motivation
except Father and Michael and direct line designates...for reasons known
only to them. It is being revealed to me as it unfolds but the goal has been understanding, peace and amnesty. This one is no warrior except for peace.

You will most likely not believe me but I have to be o.k. with that for now. It might appear that I have indeed failed in my mission
...but He Whom I serve can fail in nothing.
In His plan everyone wins...there will be no losers.

>>I think it is always better to fight and run away, live to fight another day.
>>In this case the fight goes on and on and on and on..etc. At some point
>>shortly after it sinks to the level it is now, I personally will just
>>give up reading anything she writes because she is losing credibility
>>with me. I have appreciated her efforts, she is what I wished for but
>>there comes a time to admit failure. Civility should demand to do
>>so before hostility breaks out. If she wishes to press on in the face
>>of a loosing effort so be it. I have said before, I will not ban anybody
>>from this forum ever. Freewill rules.

Forgive me...but you have recently lost credibility with me on that last statement. I did find my ability to post here blocked for awhile.

>>
>>I think the Foundation must accept Cal is the same personality written
>>about in the UB. Now the question becomes what will they do about it?
>>Since he has passed the dis-credibility test, their warrior has failed.
>>What is the next move? I think panic may begin to set in, this will
>>present an unknown chioce in what they do next. They should think carefully
>>about it, the wrong move will in fact bring down the foundation for false
>>teaching about true propaganda. There is a thin line between pride and confidence.
>>One will come before the fall, the other comes on the road to success.
>>
>>This is rhetorical baloney. If you think I have any connections with the Foundation other than having met Gard at a retreat or a friend I knew from Florida before she went to work there as a secretary you are simply wrong.
The Foundation will not believe Cal is that personality but I do.

There are a lot of negative statements written about Cal in the UB and also the Bible. I do not accept opinions about others so I asked for and
was granted permission to find out for myself what I wished to know.
This is also the reason I haven't questioned his identity. The thought patterns are recognizable.

Unfortunately as a human he hasn't really shared any factual details with me about what really were issues with the bureaucracy...only strong opinions that it is a system so flawed it was worth risking everything to oppose. It is the Lanonandeks who rule the worlds and system governments.
The 'grass roots' level of rulership if you will...so it would seem to be his own brotherhood is given a lot of latitude to function which has made it hard for me to comprehend with insufficient information.

So in some ways it is back to square one for me in my personal quest. I find no fault in Cal other than he has unfairly accused me of 'evil' in the same manner others have apparently done to him. I very much look forward to meeting with him when his transformational process is complete and communication can be direct and soul to soul so that the truth will be known. I'm done now...at least on this forum.

Any future contributions that I make here will be short and simple and very down to Urth!

Only Love.
Steffani.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 3:32 pm 

Steffani Murray:

You know Dave...

When another person tells me that they see a quality in me that they like...
I just say "thanks" and don't attempt to belittle them.

maybe they can even see something I hadn't realized about myself.
( a teacher at the community college did this for me one time and helped me to find the right career which I now love working in...she told me I worked too well with people to keep on working with machines)
I did not see this was true about me at the time.

Perhaps someday you might ask someone with decent therapy skills
(you already know a person who does)
to explain the difference to you between 'arrogance'
and a healthy self confidence.

Do you honestly think a woman that will pack a flightbag
and head for anywhere in the world at a moment's notice
to meet with absolutely anyone she might find helpful
in her personal quest for truth as Spirit directs
is a person prone to fear?

I don't need to practice...
it just comes naturally ;-)
Nor do I 'presume' anything.
I just ask!

Get a grip Dear One...
if I didn't know you better
I might think you were trying to 'score points' with Cal
by being unkind to me.

Only Love Anyway.
Steffani

David Price (08/08/00 at 5:04 am) wrote:

>>Steffani Murray (08/07/00 at 9:10 pm) wrote:
>>
>>>>David Price (08/07/00 at 2:47 pm) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>Steff - I am a mortal who accepts the parameters for Asendancy laid
>>>>>>down by Father.
>>>>
>>>>>>+++Yes Dave...this is honorable.
>>>
>> More arrogance Steff? You define what is honorable?
>>>
>>>>>>I listen to Fathers truthsayer, the only one i know - the Planetary
>>>>>>Prince of Ur. Like my life depends on it. I feel good at heart because
>>>>>>Father has answer's for my prayer of what is the truth.
>>>>
>>>>>>+++Cal is blessed by Father to have such a staunch and loyal supporter...
>>
>> More arrogance Steff? Cal does not want supporters - Asendant Souls
>>seem's to be his goal.
>>
>>>>and you are blessed to have found an answer to your prayer for truth that
>>>>feels good and right in your heart.
>>
>> More arrogance Steff? I have a head and a soul to go with the heart.
>>
>>>>
>>>>I am blessed to know the others as well...and I value the truth that all share according to their own undertandings.
>>
>> More arrogance Steff? Their is your truth and my truth - I belive
>>Cal has written on this subject also.
>>
>> One Truth as a great gem radiating its light through many finely cut facets.
>>
>> More arrogance Steff? Mumbo Jumbo - B.S.
>>
>> I could never choose between or forsake any of my wonderful brothers...each the precious Son of Our One Holy Father.
>>
>> Who are they? What is the name of their Angelic family, what are their
>>birth numbers, are they first or second order, do they reside in the
>>house of Calagastia?
>>
>>
>>Each contributes a radiance that blesses my soul. I recognize each as a part of the Whole Self that would be forever incomplete if any One were missing...yet that is impossible because
>>
>> Steff - Do you stand in the mirror and practice this stuff?
>> Beside's it smacks of fear - this statement.
>>
>>>>Creator's Will is the Completion of Perfection that includes All.
>>
>> More arrogance Steff - Cal has spoken to you about those who presume
>>to know the will and mind of the Creator.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>"The word answer" is defined as solution of a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The only problem has been solved by Father.
>>
>> I don't understand what you are trying to say here?
>>>>
>>
>> STEFF I DON'T WANT TO ARGUE WITH YOU! YOU ARE YOU, PLUS YOUR FRIENDS
>> I GUESS. IT IS JUST AS THE DAYS GO BY, YOU GET STRANGER TO ME. I
>> DON'T WANT TO GO ON LIKE THIS!
>>
>>
>> So i bid you goodbye for awhile. Dave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 3:40 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Well Dave...
That is fanciful conjecture on Greg and Cal's part.
But it simply isn't so.
You are right I should quit kicking the pony though...he's dead.
Shot through the heart by a stray arrow!

Only Love.
Steff

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 3:57 pm

Caligastia:

Steff:

Whoa girl!

I replied to your post at ubook and will do so again here. NO ONE, pulled your access to this forum. Greg and I are the only one's who could do so and it ain't been done. What you did run into was a problem on the server.
Something none of us have any control over. I couldn't get on the system myself and sent an email to the systop operator advising of the problem.
The situation was cleared up shortly thereafter.

You have one overriding problem - YOU DON'T LISTEN!

My posting was not intended to be a shot at YOU. It was a factual rendition
of a series of events that did not escape most people's notice. The point of my post was to draw attention and focus to the fact that what goes on with you - will go on with others and that learning from the experience would suit all who are interested. For example:

1. You admit that you carry an attached 'friend'.
2. You elevate the attachment to the level of good and beneficial even though Old One and I both attempted to dissuade you from the perception.
3. You felt 'intimidated' (your exact word) when it was brought to your attention.
4. In our dialogues you (very often) ignore factual material that does not conform with your attachee's perceptions and retreat into 'holy word' dialogues.
5. Regardless of lip service to the contrary, you accept the attachee's
paradigm as your own and (I assume) will continue to do so in the belief that it is Father's agent you carry.
6. You want to be a teacher.
7. Father made the offering to you.
8. You rejected it. Unwilling to forego the existing relationship with your universal operative.
9. The UB Foundation is riddled with such operatives. You aren't the only one. This, in the same fashion that Mufon is so afflicted by alien interests.
10. You assume yourself competent to contradict me on a variety of things yet offer no proving to your competence. On the other hand, I have and do.
11. You operate from belief while I function from reality. I have the beef and you have 'holy words'. This much, in itself, is sufficient to establish the operational parameters of how your 'friends' function. As such, it has value to those who have rejected such attachments to 'see and know'. Forewarned is forearmed.
12. Your assumption that you are qualified to be a teacher of the 'holy words' is without merit. You have no proof that you have been so annointed.
Having been advised of the reality, a continued assumption and practice along these lines rises to the level of blasphemy.
13. Extraordinary efforts, combined with proofs, were placed before you and you found them of insufficient import to 'turn' away from your universal associations. Freewill rules the moment.
14. One assumes that as you presume to know more than I, that you should be the planetary prince. It follows that there is nothing of value to gain by a close association with me. This supposes that I am the object of your agenda. If not, then the focal point becomes the people who do find merit
in association. Those who may choose to affiliate with me will, by their very nature, be beyond corruption. Father would not have sent them otherwise.

Unlike other groups (foundation), I will not suffer moles, agents or operatives about me. I am neither paranoid, naive, or a fool. Our encounters formed a template from which others can learn.

My take on you personally is this:

You and I have a journey to take. In spite of the holy words, your positioning is in antipathy to me, who I am, what I am and my purpose.
That's okay and we can file this under 'take a number'. Its a large universe out there and I am not running in the hit parade of most of it.
I stand with Father in my endeavors and I, personally, am content with my positioning. That you and others aren't is your call. It is what it is.

What your 'friends' didn't allow for was the fact I saw you coming and invited you in anyway. They assume that the limitations of mine own mortality are such that I couldn't find my own butt with both hands.
They assumed incorrectly.

Now I'm not saying "Baaaadddddddd Steffani". This is your evolutionary moment. Clearly, the universe considered you of sufficient import to their agenda to employ you. I, however, would much rather be in Father's good graces and the universe can follow both of my hands and pucker up. That's my evolutionary moment. It is what it is, and we are what we are. I'll leave the value judgements sit until judgement. I do not so sit now.

As with all, you are welcome to this forum as you will. It is open to the public and you are certainly a member of the public. You see, those who will be invited to association will be brought inside a structure that doesn't not allow for writing things on the bathroom walls of the internet.
Now is a moment where it doesn't matter if thoughts are shared publically.
This will change.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 5:39 pm 

Steffani Murray:

O.K. Cal...
I will keep my promise to be succinct!

Cal (08/10/00 at 5:57 pm) wrote:

>>Steff:
>>
>>Whoa girl!
>>
>>I replied to your post at ubook and will do so again here. NO ONE, pulled your access to this forum. Greg and I are the only one's who could do so and it ain't been done. What you did run into was a problem on the server.
>>Something none of us have any control over. I couldn't get on the system myself and sent an email to the systop operator advising of the problem.
>>The situation was cleared up shortly thereafter.

>>If this is true I apologize...and will also do so on ESG.
The timing of this occurence seemed to indicate otherwise.

>>You have one overriding problem - YOU DON'T LISTEN!
>>Projection?

>>My posting was not intended to be a shot at YOU. It was a factual rendition

No it isn't...

>>of a series of events that did not escape most people's notice. The point of my post was to draw attention and focus to the fact that what goes on with you - will go on with others and that learning from the experience would suit all who are interested. For example:
>>
>>1. You admit that you carry an attached 'friend'.

The only 'attachment' I admit to is my TA (Father's Spirit). I maintain reasonably conscious contact with Christ Michael's Spirit of Truth, the Divine Minister's Holy Spirit and my guardian seraphic companions Ras and Kyrie. I can do rapid telepathic dial-ups to several Melchizedeks, a few of your Lanonandek brothers, and quite a few of the TeaM teachers.

>>2. You elevate the attachment to the level of good and beneficial even though Old One and I both attempted to dissuade you from the perception.

Why in heaven's name would you expect me to believe you guys whom I have only recently been in contact over trusted friends I've known for a while. Especially when there are some significant differences of opinion over some key issues. And you tell me I need a 'reality check'?

>>3. You felt 'intimidated' (your exact word) when it was brought to your attention.

Not by that. I saw what I would have called an 'energy vampire' attack Jackie in your presence. You said you had thought that I would have been it's chosen target to 'attach'. She is Old One's primary communication vector. How could I tell that wasn't Old One using force to tweak her compliance level?
I have been asked at times to cope with energy levels for transmissions that are very high but always is permission asked. From my perspective I wondered why this was permitted by you and whether her trust in you is justified. I had just met you guys for the first time and I still haven't
figured out what you mean by 'attachments' or where this is analogous to
my own experiences. I am aware of immunity from anything involuntary due
to the presence of the TA in my mind.

I will not defend or attempt to justify myself to you...
I will leave this collection of 'stuff' to Father to sort out.
I trust in Him and Michael and feel secure in their Love.
It is only this that I would share with you when I can find a way.
When you stand with Them in Truth I will be with you.

Only Love.
Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 5:50 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Cal (08/10/00 at 4:45 pm) wrote:

>>
>>I know, I'm bad.
>>
You know...I've heard that;-)
I no longer accept that this is so.

Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 5:54 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Trust me Chuck 2...
sooner or later Daddy's going to straighten it all out.

O.F.W.
Only Love.
Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 7:41 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi...I was going to ask the same question since this had been floating
around on TML a few months ago and it was i.d.'ed as a hoax. But then
I'm not the sharpest tack in the box about computer stuff am I?
Only Love.
Steffani

Greg (08/10/00 at 8:26 pm) wrote:

>>What, are you testing me? (gg)
>>
>>{
>>
>>Received: from IGSRN008.er.usgs.gov by fgdc.er.usgs.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4)
>>Received: from IGSRN_MA-Message_Server by IGSRN008.er.usgs.gov
>>Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 13:14:22 -0400
>>Subject: Fwd: Federal Bill 602P is a hoax (Avanti)
>>
>>Received: from igsrsparc1.er.usgs.GOV
>>Received: from hustle.rahul.net (hustle.rahul.net [192.160.13.2]) by igsrsparc1.er.usgs.GOV (EMAIL 1.2.1) with SMTP id NAA12151 for ; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:13:48 -0400
>>Received: from uncled.UUCP by hustle.rahul.net with UUCP id AA08246
>>Received: by uncled (NetXpress 2.54) via UUCP id 2E225A; Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:10:16 -0800
>>Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:03:34 -0800
>>Subject: Federal Bill 602P is a hoax
>>
>>I received a similar email recently and bothered to check it out. There is
>>no bill 602P, and the US Postal Service has posted an official disclaimer
>>denying any interest/involvement etc.
>>
>>There is one going around in Canada about the Canadian Postal Service as
>>well - equally untrue.
>>
>>Don't spread this one.
>>
>>Abbot
>>
>>

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/10/00 at 10:52 pm 

Caligastia:

>>>>If this is true I apologize...and will also do so on ESG.
>>The timing of this occurence seemed to indicate otherwise.
>>
>>>>You have one overriding problem - YOU DON'T LISTEN!
>>>>Projection?
>>

Point in fact, I DO listen - even though it may not seem so to others.

>>>>1. You admit that you carry an attached 'friend'.
>>
>>The only 'attachment' I admit to is my TA (Father's Spirit). I maintain reasonably conscious contact with Christ Michael's Spirit of Truth, the Divine Minister's Holy Spirit and my guardian seraphic companions Ras and Kyrie. I can do rapid telepathic dial-ups to several Melchizedeks, a few of your Lanonandek brothers, and quite a few of the TeaM teachers.

I'll take this as an acknowledgement to the correctness of my comment.

>>
>>>>2. You elevate the attachment to the level of good and beneficial even though Old One and I both attempted to dissuade you from the perception.
>>
>>Why in heaven's name would you expect me to believe you guys whom I have only recently been in contact over trusted friends I've known for a while.

I have no expectation. My assignment was to tell you the truth. This I did. What you do with it is up to you. I, personally, neither gained nor loss in the endeavor.

Especially when there are some significant differences of opinion over some key issues. And you tell me I need a 'reality check'?

The totality of your 'heavenly' opinions, if lined from end to end could not equal one factual reality. You inability to produce proofs speaks to the point. You did not, however answer the point raised, but instead asked your own question. Again, I will allow this as an acknowledgement to the correctness of the originating premise.

>>
>>>>3. You felt 'intimidated' (your exact word) when it was brought to your attention.
>>
>>Not by that. I saw what I would have called an 'energy vampire' attack Jackie in your presence.

Prove it. "energy vampire", me thinks you might have watched too many reruns of star trek.

You said you had thought that I would have been it's chosen target to 'attach'.

I said nothing of the sort. You arrived attached and you left the same way, by your own volition and agreement. Old One made no effort at you. His attempt at dialogue with you was a kindness you chose not to exploit.

She is Old One's primary communication vector.

She is not. I taught Jackie how to use her skills. Do you think me incompetent as well?

How could I tell that wasn't Old One using force to tweak her compliance level?

How can you tell the moon isn't made of green cheese? You might have sought to expand your knowledge by asking. After all, the man was civil enough to give you a heads up to your condition and all you did was run to the other side of the room. Not exactly cordial in my book.

>>I have been asked at times to cope with energy levels for transmissions that are very high but always is permission asked. From my perspective I wondered why this was permitted by you and whether her trust in you is justified.

Perhaps you should have asked her what she thought.

I had just met you guys for the first time and I still haven't
>>figured out what you mean by 'attachments' or where this is analogous to
>>my own experiences. I am aware of immunity from anything involuntary due
>>to the presence of the TA in my mind.

You are naive and misinformed.

>>
>>I will not defend or attempt to justify myself to you...

I haven't asked you to. You brought up the subject and I responded with clarity and pointed precision. Not for the purpose of 'getting' you, but to the point of informing others as to the common threat many people face by what you've chosen to associate with.

>>I will leave this collection of 'stuff' to Father to sort out.

He isn't going to sort out your life choices. That's your job.

>>I trust in Him and Michael and feel secure in their Love.

Your trust still does not remove from the responsibilities for your own actions.

>>It is only this that I would share with you when I can find a way.
>>When you stand with Them in Truth I will be with you.

I find this unlikely. You've picked your side poorly.

---------------------------------------------------------
The rest of the material has, in very typical fashion been ignored and I deem this to indicate an inability to address the points.
---------------------------------------------------------
end Cal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/11/00 at 3:37 pm 

Caligastia:

The dialogues with Steffani have been, for me, a gold mine of inspiration into areas of new thought. While we are cross positioned against each other, I do see enormous potential for good from these conversations and Cinde's willingness to preserve the messaging may have substantial benefit for others in the future.

I propose that my behaviors, attitudes and practices should, in fact, be the standards by which celestials are judged. I don't feel I'm tooting my own horn here, but there are a variety of substantial differences between me and the invisible 'friendlies' out there. I'll quote some of the material from Steffani conversations. This is not an indictment of Steffani but a notation that Steffani represents a situation that is not unique among people and will become (in the future) something much more obvious than it is now.

Here we go

1. I walk amongst you as man and do so without fear.

The Invisible People's (IP) rationalization for not doing so is that they are disinclined to subject themselves to the risks because of how the Son was murdered in Jerusalem.

If, as I've said, the first dragon that must be conquered within one's mortality is fear. Does this not suggest that those who indulge such fears are themselves, non ascendant? If so, what value can their words have?
Which then is the greater and which is the lesser?

2. I have from day one expounded logic, reason, evidence and PROOF as being the currency of reality. This was done long before I developed the ability to demonstrate proofs between me and mine. It follows that my 'beliefs' are established and upon them a heavy layering of proofs now exist. Thus, the visible tangible realities are self evident and constitute a proving of the original premise (belief).

The IP's, on the other hand, don't deliver. Which then is the greater and which is the lesser?

3. I stand forth, among you in a clearly definable life as one of you.

The IP's don't and won't.

Who then possesses greater credibility?

4. If the Urantia Book is to be believed, then life experience is the key to personality evolution.

The IP's ignore this and hide safely behind dimensional blinds.

Whose words have greater value? Those who have no experience or he who has substantial experience?

5. Those who have endeavored to keep up with the web site and the few who have actually met me seem to grant me credibility based upon their experiences and evaluations.

The IP's grant no such face to face or 'in this reality' dialogue.

Who then has established credibility and who hasn't (or can't)?

6. I endeavor to place the 'holy words' before you in a reasonable and rational manner connecting them to real life exemplars to enable a better understanding.

The IP's hide behind the holy words as diversions dedicated to the creation of delusion and faith without benefit of provings within the confines of this reality.

What value does a purported teacher have if he/she can't walk the walk and talk the talk?

7. I do not presume to teach you anything. Instead, I place the truth as it is known to me before you and let you and your own freewill dictate where you go from there. My knowing is based upon first hand experience. Thus, I am logically qualified to give voice to my experience as well as to stand witness.

The IP's PRESUME to teach without benefit of proof that they have been anointed by Father or Son. This presumption rises to arrogance in as much as they assume themselves to be greater than you - again without proof.

8. The Son and the Apostles set the template.

Physical form as man, with 'miracles'.

The IP's are not men and any purported 'miracle' lacks credibility for failing to adhere to the template.

9. I tell you that you should tend to your own backsides.

The IP's cover themselves in 'holy words' like, "I am wrapped in the spirit of truth" and so on. They take no responsibility for their actions nor can they stand forth and account for them. They ASSUME that Father is going to cover their acts without benefit of discourse with Him. Had such discourse been had, the evidence would surface in accordance to the template set by Father and Son.

10 While, as the planetary prince, I am qualified to 'teach', I don't.
The Son is here and this is his job.

The IP's, in their arrogance, feel they can usurp the Son's role and duties. Again, without benefit of proof that they've been anointed to do so.

11. I tell you that it isn't Father's wish or the Son's job that they should 'save you'. It's your task to save yourselves.

The IP's assume Father will save them (and others) and bury themselves within holy words to cover their assumptions.

Only one of us can be telling the truth.

12. I am here and in your face. The first step of Father's template is established.

The IP's, where are they? What do they look like? What kind of impression did they make on you when they didn't meet with you?

13. The IP's, via the Urantia Book and other sources, tell you I am the Devil.

Yet, the fact is glaring that I speak no evil nor do I inflict evil upon anyone.

If one of us is, in fact, evil - who then would it be?

14. The IP's, via the Urantia Book and other sources, have never stated that I am a liar.

This glaring omission begs the question of how can one be the devil and NOT be a liar?

This is enough for now, I hope you get my point.

In the days ahead, there will be only two sides of the coin. Those who stand with Father, and those who don't. Fence sitting isn't going to be a possibility. Father's wishes are clearly and concisely visible and knowable though His agents. He doesn't send invisible people on missions to teach the word. He sends real, in your face, people. These people arrive with PROOF!

If you are a person carrying an invisible friend, would it not be better to demand adherence to the template? Only one of us can be deluded. It is not I.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/11/00 at 9:32 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Rob...
Have you ever gone down to your favorite college and enrolled in a course
called 'statistics'. I have...and it showed me 'So well' how a few 'facts'
surrounded by a whole lot of professionally constructed 'spin' can convince
people who are not careful readers and critical thinkers that they are face to face with 'proof' on a matter which is merely perceptually supported opinion that is by no means 'true' at all. Advertising and politics are two fields that utilize experts to create fictional
'realities'. They are paid well to sway 'public opinion' in the
directions desired by the masters of control techniques who can afford
to use these in practical applications. I will offer a few examples using the statements in the article below pointing out their glaring falsity
by which they distort 'reality' into the preferential viewpoint of the writer.

Rob Smith (08/11/00 at 8:59 am) wrote:

>>Column by Thomas Sowell
>>
>>Facts are "out"
>>
>>http://www.jewishworldreview.com
>>
>>
>>-- THE MODERN AGE has been called "the age of reason," as distinguished from past ages of faith. However, ideological faith has now begun displacing both reason and facts.
>>
>>For example, hysteria about "global warming" continues unabated, despite satellite data which show the Earth to be a fraction of a degree cooler today than in 1979. These data come from the satellites of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
>>
>>Those who prefer to believe in global warming also prefer to use data from different sources, including readings taken in or near cities that are generating their own heat. But that is very different from NASA satellite readings of the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere, which is not warming. Those who are truly determined to promote the idea of global warming resort to computer models, which of course can produce virtually any outcome, depending on what assumptions are fed into the computer.

>>*He has stated the first paragraphs set of data is valid...to actually
determine this is so both sets of data...all of it in fact...would have to be objectively studied by an unbiased impartial reviewer skillful in data interpretation and without preference to outcome other than scientific accuracy.

>>Misinterpretations of facts are just one problem. More brazenly, many denounce the very collection or publication of facts that go against their ideological faith.

>>*Science often involves reality based 'facts' relating to the material properties of things found in nature yet researchers are often discovered to be skewing data to support their pet theories.

>>Radical feminists like Gloria Steinem have denounced the collection of scientific data on biological differences between men and women. The feminist dogma is that "society" is responsible for creating artificial differences between males and females. Yet scientific study after scientific study -- many done by women, incidentally -- show differences between the sexes beginning in the womb, before they have ever seen "society."

>>*This one makes a particular person 'like' an arbitrary 'buzzword'and stereotypical categorization as an emotionally charged 'smear' presenting no article or reference that 'Gloria Steinem' has ever actually said any such thing. Nor does it offer any definition of what a 'radical feminist' is.
He would have to at least offer a reference of an essay or book written by this person containing statements to this effect or quote them in context for me to buy into 'proof'this woman believes as he purports.
The statement made immediately after however is factually validated by much scientific research. Again no references to access it are given...
merely an inane statement relating to the gender of the scientists.

>>Boys have higher mortality rates, beginning in the womb, and unborn little girls show more mouth movements. Among adults, studies of brain activity
>>show the patterns of this activity to be different in men and women. No wonder the radical feminists want such research stopped.

>>*Well we are still clueless as to whatever a 'radical feminist' might be
(unless we have formed a preconception elsewhere perhaps)or why they would
want research on complemental gender differences discontinued.

*Actually an excellent book of documented, referenced and yet highly readable material on this topic... if anyone is interested... has the unceremoneous title of 'Brain Sex'(the real difference between men and women) by Anne Moir Ph.D and David Jessel. It speaks on the subjects the gentlemen presents above in a manner I would consider to be irrelevant
propaganda tied to important information of great potential value to forming a society where true reality based equity of the type that promotes the happiness of both genders could be applied.

>>Half a century ago, there was a survey of studies of black children with high IQs which listed 16 such studies of youngsters with IQs above 120, 130 or 140. Today, it is doubtful whether a single study of this sort is being done anywhere in the United States. In some places, it is forbidden by law or by politics to even test black children for IQs.
>>
>>Back when IQ tests were widely given, blacks usually scored about 15 points below the national average. Black "leaders" then demanded -- and received -- a ban on IQ tests for blacks, lest anyone think this difference was genetic. Of course, this ban stopped no one from thinking that. All it did was suppress facts, including facts which could argue against the genetic
>>interpretation.

>>First of all, there have been various Caucasian groups in the United States with IQs 15 points below the national average, as well as other groups around the world with similar test scores. Whole nations' IQs have risen by that much, without any genetic change. Moreover, high-IQ blacks include several times as many females as males. That goes against both the genetic and the environmental theories of mental test differences.
>>
>>But we are forbidden to explore such facts. At a time when black scores are going up on various tests, we are forbidden to find out if they are also going up on IQ tests. Since scores on different kinds of tests tend to be
>>correlated, chances are that black IQ test scores would also be going up -- if we were allowed to find out. But black "leaders" and white liberals won't let us.

>>*What a crock of spun B.S. Anyone who accepts psychology as a science as well as an art could find valid research to support not only racial and cultural but gender bias to these tests. Societal 'truisms' are often a form of wisdom in their own way. Stereotypical comments from mothers about these tests "girls do better in English...Boys do better in math" were
rampant before anyone insisted on systematic research into if and why
this was so. These tests do have limited validity. Yes, documentation
of this research is also found in the previously recommended book or the
textbooks of the college down the roads used bookstore...and on the net no doubt. For every good sounding opinion its opposite can also be presented in an equally convincing 'argument' and which is selected as 'right' may be the preferred one of the teacher grading the papers or the boss signing
the paycheck of the survival or status externally motivated individual.

>>It is not just particular facts that are denounced or suppressed. Increasingly bold intellectuals are denigrating the very idea of facts. It's all how you look at it, according to the more airy and self-indulgent of the intelligentsia.

>>*Facts in the hands of intelligent 'spin doctors' could manipulate a
good number of reasonably intelligent people into believing the unsupported opinion above.

>>Was Einstein's theory just a matter of how you looked at it? Even at Hiroshima or Nagasaki?

>>*What indeed does relativity have to do with building an atom bomb?
I'm sure someone can invent some kind of theory and convince someone else
to believe it if they work at it.

>>The idea that there is no such thing as truth has gotten very fashionable in some quarters. It is now called "my truth" or "your truth" or somebody else's truth. But truth loses its meaning if it becomes private property. The whole point of truth is that it enables one person to rely on what someone else says.

>>*Facts are facts which have nothing at all to do with 'truth'.
If one is able to rely on what another has said it is because that person is 'truthful' meaning they do not willfully distort facts to attempt to
manipulate acceptance of their own inevitably perceptually selective version of 'reality' which is only visible from the place in which they are standing. Perspective changes not facts. Truth doesn't change either but is interpreted differently according to maturity level even to the same person...growth allows a more complete understanding.

>>Behind all this evasion of reality is the simple fact that some people have constructed a vision of the world in their mind which differs greatly from the real world. And they cannot bring themselves to give up that vision. Nor will they allow others to shatter their vision with facts.

>>*I would certainly try every evasive tactic I could think of to avoid allowing a person of limited vision to define the 'real world' or define
'my' reality by their distortions of facts designed to control and imprison others.

>>The real question is: Why do we take them seriously? Are we so easily impressed or intimidated by their airs of superiority?
>>
A very good question...why allow anyone to impress or intimidate us with any kind of spin when a simple presentation of facts in a straightforward manner could facilitate the process of making valid choices based on these
facts? The reason this so rarely occurs is because the majority of presenters have an investment in determining which choice is to be made.

"Keep on thinking free"...the Moody Blues

Only Love.
Steffani
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/11/00 at 10:06 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Chuck2...

Please do not think I did not appreciate your concern...
I do stand on my own with my trust in my TA and Michael's sovereignty.

On earth I have a job that I enjoy.
But I couldn't run the place where I work all by myself.
It takes each person doing the best that they can for us to provide excellent service for our clientele.
When one co-worker gets an attitude it can undermine morale.
Fortunately that doesn't happen too often.
Having an understanding Supervisor who also works hard
and doesn't 'pull rank' unless there is an impasse on
democratic decision making is also helpful.

My position in the universe is the same way too.
Have you ever heard the full version of Reinhold Neibeir's
Serenity Prayer?
I do have the courage to change the things I can...
I trust the rest to Father.

Thank you again Chuck...
I have no fear
nor do I feel there has been 'conflict'
only a misunderstanding
I accept your advice as an offering of love.

Only Love.
Steffani

Chuck 2 (08/11/00 at 4:49 am) wrote:

>>OK Cal (and Dave)(and Steffani)
>>
>>Glibness aside,
>>I'm guessing this is your way of politely telling me noneya.
>>OK,I can accept that.
>>I mearly felt the need to express my concerns.
>>As I said,It's just my opinion.
>>
>>Although Cal,I think you missed your true callings.
>>You should have been a stand-up attorney.:)
>>You'd definately have them rolling in the courtroom isles.
>>
>>There are reasons why I don't chime in more often.
>>First off if you remember,keeping my mouth shut is the main lesson George was trying to teach me.
>>Secondly I really just don't have much to say these days.
>>And thirdly,as much as I enjoy all your company,I've stopped spending so much time with my computer.
>>So if I seem out of step,it's because I've decided too step out instead.
>>
>>One more thing.
>>
>>Steffi,
>>
>>Just a little advice from an old man(and please don't take this the wrong way).
>>You really should get away from your "friends" and learn to stand on your own.
>>I know you think they are helping you but think about this.
>>If they really want to help you, then why are they creating all this conflict for you to deal with?
>>I've dealt with many of these so called "friends" in the course of my life and I've yet to meet one that was concerned with anyone elses best interests.
>>They all have an agenda,and they all have alterior motives.
>>The only one you can trust is your TA.
>>No one else is autherised to interfere in your life without your permission,and if you've given them permission then that's exactly what they're doing.
>>INTERFERING!!!!!
>>
>>That's not FATHERS' will.
>>
>>If you know what's good for you,you'll send them all away.
>>All it takes is to envoke Michaels authority as the Sovreign Ruler of Nebaden and commanding them to comply with your wishes.
>>If your faith is strong,they will be compelled to obey.
>>Remember,there's nothing to be afraid of.
>>
>>Now I realise why I felt so much concern.
>>
>>All my love Steffani
>>Be strong
>>I'm praying for you.
>>
>>Chuck 2
>>only FATHERS' will
>>no one elses

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/11/00 at 10:21 pm 

Steffani Murray:

O.K. You Adorable Little Planetary Prick!

Just Kidding Cal;-)

(Folks...you really won't see me engage in name calling.)

I have been here in the flesh and in your face...and fearless too!

Mac and Michael have also done their time as mortals ...you know it.

"Once is enough" as the Moody Blues sing it.

Be Right!
Be Happy!

You win!

...only sometimes when you win you lose
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/12/00 at 11:23 am 

Caligastia:

I prefer the formal - Planetary Penis if you please.

You've been here - so who are you? and of course, PROVE IT.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/12/00 at 1:06 pm 

Caligastia:

Allie:
An attachment occurs when one who is capable, extends the umblicus (silver cord) and attaches it to the temple or the base of the neck of an individual. Angels do this all the time amongst themselves as a form of communication (temple). When a 4d attaches to a 3d in its most benign form, this is for communicative purposes. When a 4d attaches to the base of the neck it is not for the purpose of taking control of the individual - not benign. The individual's freewill is taken from them for the course of the attachment. In its most drastic form, it is called possession. It is a misconception to believe that demons are the only ones who can (and do)perform this poor function.

A difference, for example, between Jackie and Steffani is this.

Jackie was dimensionally capable when I met her. I taught her how to focus and refine those abilities to practical use. Also, because of her close association with me would make her a 'target', I also taught her how to kick em in the teeth if they got out of line. They've learned that intrusion has a price. Old One will form an attachment for periodic communications. He does not ride with her but rarely. When she's told him to get lost - he has. This respects the woman's freewill and forms no intrusion. Old One's communications have proven to be correct with a couple of minor goofs. He's not infallible. Old One delivers the Beef when it serves good purpose. Old One has established his 'reality' not only to our satisfaction but to that of others. Remember, it's really only ONE reality.

Steffani, during the time you saw her here was attached constantly, EXCEPT for the time at the Lair. As we started into the ravine, I placed a variant of Father's Ring around the area. As soon as she left the area, her friend reattached. Her attachment is a universal agent. One contrapositioned from me. Steffani, accepts affiliation with her every present friend. Her attachment is at the temple, not at the base of the neck. There is no need as she is a willing host. I would call Steffani an enemy were it not for the fact that she is also a daughter of the earth. One of mine. Her attachment and affiliation with the Urantia people speaks to mission purposes. The promote the 'word' of the universe for the purpose of deluding as many as possible.

Now, while those within the universe generally believe their own baloney,
they have also divorced themselves of the ability to engage in original thought. Thus the myriad of holy word repetitions in our dialogues and the unwillingness (inability) to answer to on point issues. Steffani can't because 'they' can't.

All of the universe's elevated personalities, those who can reach 6d, have already divorced themselves from the universe and reside at Havona, in 6d.
out of the reach of the universe.

The ability to reach 5d is an evolutionary step that many remaining with the universe can do. This makes them timewalkers and they have the ability to attempt to manipulate timelines. Lines can also be manipulated from within that line (ours being 3d). To do this, one must have an operative actually there in a skin suit to perform desired acts. Bob so resides as a resident of 3d, and has for nearly 2000 years, to serve mission objectives.
Steffani, by association, has accepted this role and operates as a universal agent - contra to my purposes.

I knew that one would arrive whom I would have the opportunity to 'turn'.
It was Steffani. Cleary, the effort failed. I was instructed, by Father,
to make extraordinary efforts in her case. I did. The rest falls to her own freewill and I'm pretty much out of it. We will, however, be crossing paths for some time.

If you re-read the chapter on the nature of evil, you will find that the fulfillment of a 'need' is a very strong incentive. The universe calls her, 'a teacher'. She repeats it publically. This is what she does so much want.
Father offered her the opportunity to learn HOW to be a teacher via the time honored tradition of first hand instruction between a master and a student. She declined. After all, she already believes herself to be so anointed even though she can't produce one iota of proving. Her belief is sufficient.

Note, I am not at war with Steffani the human being and NEVER EVER will be.
A loving parent will never make war upon his children. However, I will not be so generous to those who exploit these children to their own poor and evil purposes.

Would these evolved souls even use an attachment method?

A personality (higher) capable of 6d would NEVER form a lasting attachment with a mortal. They would perform a temporary link for momentary communication if there was sufficient cause. Few would do this however as they do not possess the license of position. I have such a license as, via me, so does Old One. Machiventa Melchezidek, my grandfather, is a 6d personality. Thus the word NEVER is applicable. He follows protocol. When he wishes to speak with me, he does so in the company of Old One who announces him. This is also true for the Archangel Gabriel. Those who 'believe' they've been having these extended dialogues with Mac are deluded. Steffani describes him as a congenial and jovial person. Constipated, uptight, and ever serious is more like it.

If not, then these must be 4D attachments? For what purposes? Info gathering?

Intelligence gathering and timeline intercourse for poor purposes.

It must be pretty obvious eventually that something is potting on our little planet. That in conjunction with the fact that Michael has been absent as well as upper management in the Universe as well as no contact with Father.
>>

Their rationalization to Father's absence is 'He's testing us'.

>>So the bottom line is - have the attachments got the answers that they were looking for? Steff - you'll have to help me out here...

Only Steff can answer this one.

>>- Do you accept Caligastia as the Planetary Prince?
>>- Do you accept that what he strives for is part of a far more important plan for a new awakening
>>- That new awakening has Fathers stamp of approval
>>
>>My general impression from all the verbal ping pong that has been going on lately is that Cal is seen as "small fry" and it is fun to string him along.

Curious, how did you arrive at that? I assuming this isn't another short joke:)

If this impression is wrong - please enlighten me - us all!
>>If you dont feel that you have attachments, then what are your OWN thoughts as to exactly what is going on here. I'm not a fundi on the UB or its purpose, but if they are not in the loop, what is the future of our planet (people, Prince and All) according to them?
>>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/12/00 at 10:08 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Cal (08/12/00 at 1:23 pm) wrote:

>>I prefer the formal - Planetary Penis if you please.

>>Gee Cal...I didn't think you were so pretentious ;-)

>>You've been here - so who are you? and of course, PROVE IT.

>> Why Me of course...

You remind me of the boys in high school...
If you love me, PROVE IT!
Well, you're just going to have to wait too.

Only Love.
Steffani
(Meranda)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/13/00 at 12:00 am 

Caligastia:

I believe the correct line was

"If you loved me baby you'd prove it (or do it - it was interchangeable)."

I call your proposition GPS. Gold plated pussy syndrome. It assumes you're worth waiting for (again no proof). For those of us who no longer think with our hormones, the proposition is lacking.

I once had an alien nordic tell me that if I followed him for 3 years, he'd teach me the secrets of the universe and ascendancy. It took me a while to quit laughing at the ridiculousness of the proposition. Clearly the operating assumption was that I was a moron.

It also begs the question of why one would wait for you when then can have me now and for free.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/13/00 at 8:38 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Well Your Royal and Regal Planetary Penisness...

I think you've missed the point again ;-)

It is that your conception of miracles

as well as your thought processes

are so literal at times

that a mixmaster truck full of concrete

could have been poured upon them and solidified.

Giving it away prematurely

only increases your popularity for a moment

and the aftermath is very confusing...

it helps to be really awake

when called upon to make important decisions.

Only Love.
Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/13/00 at 11:14 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Allie...I'm going to try to keep this simple.

Allie (08/12/00 at 1:36 pm) wrote:

>>I would appreciate a little clarification here. I've met Cal and Steffani, but have no personal experience with attachments. During that weekend we all shared a lot of thoughts and experiences, but now I find myself not really grasping the situation between you two. It all seems to be related to "the bigger picture" and celestial personalities that are outside my personal knowledge.
>>
*This is so.

>>My understanding is that Caligastia is "in the loop" as far as Lucifer and Immanuel's plan for a new awakening for a stagnant Universe. This plan has Father's stamp of approval.
>>
*I think this is true. The perspective presented here is not exactly the same as I understand the situation.

>>Assuming that the Universal attachments are not "in the loop", they would view Caligastia as the Planetary Prince that bucked the system. He declared sucession and then proceeded to rehash things according to his own methodology - The Caligastian principles of accelerated acendancy. My own logic reasons that these principles must be in The Plan, therefore they have elements from Lucifer, Immanuel (DONT forget his position!) and Father.

>>*Immanuel is the Paradise Trinity's representative to the court of
Michael of Salvington... the sovereign Master Creator Son of this
'local' Universe...and His Counselor/Advisor and only peer and equal
besides Michael's consort the Divine Minister. All the local universe
Sons of God...Melchizedeks, Vorondadeks, Lanonandeks and Material Sons as well as angelic orders of Seraphim and Cherubim, and mortal material sons
of space and others are directly or indirectly their children. Michael is
best known on this planet as Jesus of Nazareth.

>>Exactly what level are we talking about when we talk about attachments here? Are these 4D personalities only? or can some come from the higher 5th and 6th Dimensions. Am I incorrect in thinking that only highly evolved souls can reach 5D and 6D? Would these evolved souls even use an attachment method? If not, then these must be 4D attachments? For what purposes? Info gathering? It must be pretty obvious eventually that something is potting on our little planet. That in conjunction with the fact that Michael has been absent as well as upper management in the Universe as well as no contact with Father.

*Michael knows everything that is going on in His universe Nebadon. Father is aware of every personality in all the grand universe which is vast.He only acknowledges the domains of the Superuniverses geographically but His Mind is aware of all of His Children great and small always and is not now
nor ever has been separated from His Creation. Awareness of His Presence
by any particular creature is another matter.
'Upper Management'...Trinity Government Representatives rulership ends
at the constellation level.
The Lanonandeks were created to rule the star systems and planets of a
'local' universe. There are 12,000,000 of them in Nebadon and over 700
have participated in the 3 rebellions which have occurred in the history
of this universe.
All 3 happened prior to Michael becoming fully to power as sovereign of His universe by parameters of 7 bestowal missions or'lives'
lived in the likeness of 7 orders of His universe creatures.
(I discussed this in detail in an earlier post.) Hopefully this puts a little historical perspective on the uniqueness (or not) of our situation here.

>>
>>So the bottom line is - have the attachments got the answers that they were looking for? Steff - you'll have to help me out here...

*There really are few secrets in this universe except to mortals on the
isolated planets under the system quarantine...various modes of communication are fully functional everywhere else. What is 'potting on our little planet' is preparation for the system to be brought back on line by Michael's authority and normal status and communications reestablished on the rebellion spheres in the Satania system.
Something unusual is planned for Urth.

>>- Do you accept Caligastia as the Planetary Prince?

*He was until Michael's bestowal mission...he was effectively relieved of his functional capabilities as planetary prince of this world when he went into mortality. It requires a full complement of spiritual beings to
govern a planet. There were 12 Melchizedeks who were the overseers of this planet prior to Cal's arrival as planetary prince 500,000 years ago. At the
time of the sucession they were returned to the planet in that capacity.
Of course Cal was still on the planet as prince and fully aware and considering this intrusive naturally.

Machiventa Melchizedek one of these 12 planetary receivers for Michael's government incarnated on the planet 4,000 years ago on a bestowal mission in the days of Abraham. He also worked with the Hebrew prophets in semi-material form until Christ Michael was born as a baby in Bethlehem.

He was officially commissioned as viceregent planetary prince 2,000 years ago by Michael taking over Cal's job basically, although the planet is actually governed by a council of 24 ascendant mortals on Jerusem.
There is also a Vorondadek Son on the planet as an observer who actually can take over the command of the celestialgovernment of the planet whenever there is a real crisis of some sort.

>>- Do you accept that what he strives for is part of a far more important plan for a new awakening
>>- That new awakening has Fathers stamp of approval

>>*This may not make sense right now but yes.

>>My general impression from all the verbal ping pong that has been going on lately is that Cal is seen as "small fry" and it is fun to string him along. If this impression is wrong - please enlighten me - us all!
>>If you dont feel that you have attachments, then what are your OWN thoughts as to exactly what is going on here. I'm not a fundi on the UB or its purpose, but if they are not in the loop, what is the future of our planet (people, Prince and All) according to them?
>>
*Cal's last post on this was interesting. I do have communication with
Mac and others at times but so do a lot of other people. I do think mind links are as benign as calling someone up on the telephone or sending an
e-mail. The reason most of these persons do not incarnate is not because they are fearful (they have no reason to be) but because bio-bodies are really inconvenient. They need to eat and sleep and be moved about by means of cars or boats or trains or planes and are somewhat fragile and completely unsuitable for spaceflight. These guys are not invisible to each other and many types can materialize at least partially or project
visible images of 'forms' when necessary for communication with folks who aren't energetically sensitive.

>>Over that 4th July weekend my experiences direct from Father were a confirmation of Caligastia's paradigm. It was the answer I was seeking. I would really like to understand where you are coming from. All I know is that it does not appear to be the same as my own.
>>
*I have been open with Cal over the past months about my relationship with Mac and the Teaching Mission and most other things so he has never had a need to go into an intelligence gathering mode or anything like that.
He told me that he and Mac have come to an understanding and that His allegience isto Father and Michael at this point.
I am willing to accept this as factual but I do not understand if that is so why a war with the universe and the rebellion is indicated. I wanted the opportunity to try to get to know him and to understand where he is coming from.
His paradigm is certainly his own and not entirely understandable to me yet. Cal is viewed as an original thinker even by those who thus far disapprove of his methods of doing things.
Perhaps the fact that my 'mentor' is the person that has taken over his role will clarify why he has found it necessary to try to discredit me by saying I am associated with the Urantia Foundation and so forth.
I personally dislike that outfit because of how they've treated book readers so it wasn't a very nice thing to say.
This is too bad because on a human level I find him very a very likeable person with humility and a degree of self control I admire tremendously. But I guess politics, perceived agendas and this business of attachments is going to preclude the chance for us to be friends anytime soon.

I really like you a lot too Allie and think you had a lot of 'moxie' to
just fly on over for the adventure we all had together. It does take a little more than a magic rock garden and a couple of UFO's to impress me
though because I have been living in the benign Divine x-files for a while now if you can imagine what I might mean by that after this post.

The problem with disclosures of this type is that most folks simply
decide that you are out of your mind when you make them...you are an
intelligent lady with good common sense so I can only trust you will
be able to figure it all out eventually.

Only Love.
Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/13/00 at 11:59 pm 

Caligastia:

Well Steff:

The simple sort of fellow that I am tends to take things literally.
I'm not a master wordsmith and prefer to speak plainly. Granted, not very universal but then, if I wanted to be universal I wouldn't have seceded.
Go figure. I prefer my dream of freedom for all to the reality of this universe. My attitude about miracles follows the template set by The Son.
Heal the sick, raise the dead. Steffani! COME FORTH!. Color me simple minded but that would definitely do it for me.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 1:01 am 

Caligastia:

Allie:

I'd suggest you read The Conversation With Caligastia. Steffani isn't the first UB type to quote chapter and verse from the UB. Unfortunately, she did not provide the balancing truths found in the book as well. In the conversation chapter a 'true believer' of the UB, representing himself as an open mind spiritual person looking for the truth went through the book in similar fashion to this last post. In short order, his true nature and intent was exposed.

I made it a point to answer the queries from the exact and precise words in the book. In each instance, the progenator verse which was vague and two stepping (while being technically accurate) was contradicted by a verse with greater precision (ie: truth). These verses are not well indexed by the book and appear spread out over large distances within its pages.
It follows that the truth is in there, but it is not the truth the true believers selectively quote while ignoring the portions that contradict
their desired ascertains.

With regards to Steffani's reply to you, I ask that she deliver one iota of independent tangible proof that any of her words can be verified with an 'in your face' examination. There is no proof that any of these worlds exist. The true believer quotes knowingly of places they've never seen, never visited and couldn't plot on a star chart AND produce proof of it.

Steffani acknowledges I am the planetary prince. She also represents that she knows better than I and is also a celestial personality named, Miranda.
I suppose she feels she's empowered to sit in judgement as well if her crictiques are an example. Naturally, her feeling or belief of 'high birth' is not going to be substantiated by any deliverance of fact or proof. This, any more than the Urantia Book is going to be substantiated by any proving.
Like any cult, this group depends upon the 'faith' and 'needs' of its members. Like any such group, you have a hard core at the center and varying degrees as it expands outwards.

The Urantia Book, its foundation, The teaching mission and many other groups based upon the UBook are infiltrated to the ears with universal operatives and collaborators like Steffani. They dedicate enormous amounts of time and money to going to as many of these functions as they can accommodate. Even Steffani has said, 'when I need to be somewhere - my schedule opens up'. It does so for others as well.

Steffani and Dennis were the first to arrive and the last to leave.
When we first met, she wanted a hug. I knew what she was up to but allowed it. Ditto this for the second time. This time I called her on it and asked her how I did. She asked what I meant. I told her that I had allowed two psychic 'pat downs' and I was curious to her thoughts. She smiled and said 'fine'. I wanted her to know I saw her coming. That's an American expression for, I saw her intents clearly.

I had also been informed, in advance, that one would be arriving with whom I would have the opportunity to 'turn' from a poor path to Father's way.
Steffani was the one. I made no efforts in this until we went to the Lair and the attachments were removed.

Her function was to meet, observe and to decide whether or not I was truly Caligastia. Once decided, her next function was to inflitrate in the same fashion most of these UB groups have been. Of course, this all depended upon one variable, that I'd be as dumb as a rock and not see what was before my own eyes.

Upon our return, I have repeatedly challenged Steffani and her holy word act. It works well with others but it isn't flying here. She declares herself a teacher but all she has to teach is the duplicities found in the Urantia Book. She declares herself elevated and knowing yet can produce no evidence or qualification to the elevated position she claims to possess.

She is, in my less than humble opinion, an excellent example of what happens when one sells their logic and reason to the universe.

At ubook.org a discussion has been in progress with regards to some of the more facist passages in the Ubook. Defective children are summarily executed, retarded children are institutionalized in concentration camps as are less than perfect adults and people suspected that they MIGHT BE a murderer (without having actually commited a crime) are summarily executed.
The Ubook applauds these efforts as does Steffani.

The last time this philosophy was loosed upon the Earth, by a universal operative, his name was Adolph Hitler.

Naturally, Steff wraps the horror in some holy words and talks about the greater good achieved by the practice of summary murder and separation from family and loved ones
.
The book does not mention in that chapter that on universal mortal worlds,
there is no reincarnation. So, once these hapless people have been gassed,
they also lose any hope for ascendancy. It's one shot and your out.

Clearly, I failed with regards to Steffani. My batting rate with universal types is zero. Regardless, Father wanted the offer made. However, I do see some good in these endeavors. An excellent example of a poor example still serves good purpose. As stated, Steffani is not unique. The universe has many moles, operatives and collaborators positioned for these times. It serves that those not willing to sell out understand and see the dynamics of the mind set and how it functions. You will see it again and again. I dare say that if I keep up with Steffani's holy word writings, the varnish of the 'only in love' will show itself for what is really behind the falseness of the words.

The words 'give me liberty or give me death' were sung long before they were said here on earth. I will not bend knee before the likes of this universe nor Steffani. I have two knees, one goes to Father and the other is reserved for The Son. I will not submit. I will not give up and I will never surrender. THIS IS WHAT I AM!

You see Allie, 40 days past and the delimna of choice is before thee.
How can one choose intelligently unless both sides of the equation are put forth for examination. I've tolerated these things for good purpose. You'll have no opportunity to join the rebellion. I granted this to no one.
Your choices are Caligastia, Father's loyal son, or the Universe and the other Steffanis therein.

As a personal aside the Urantia Foundation is now patting themselves on the back that they've been able to infect India with the presence of their book. So it has done with other countries as well. Yet, (sly smile here),
having seen the Lair, you might allow for how far in advance I can plan things. I do hold the trump card where they are concerned:)

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 1:32 am 

Steffani Murray:

Allie...Cal has dubiously discredited me over on ESG by attributing statements made by others to me in several posts. I'm not sure if he
simply read in haste or is simply choosing to do this but I refuted these
things. I did not say them. Anyone who can read well can verify this.
I wouldn't be above suggesting reading the UB though...just to see
what it says about topics that interest you.
Only Love.
Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 1:53 am 

Steffani Murray:

Cal...you are far from simple.
Being able to read and write well aren't 'sins' either.
Healing the sick by the use of modern medicine
or helping folks find the tools they need
to save their own lives
is miracle working sufficient for the likes of me.
The real miracle is the shift in perception
that enables someone to have hope
or realize God loves them...
unconditionally just as they are.
When someone tries to hurt another
it is often because they have been hurt.
You see me as representing those you think want to hurt you.
This really isn't me but you are putting me in that role
in order to have a visible target.
You have suceeded.
I'm outta here!
unless someone has a question which I will answer...
Only Love.
Steffani
Meranda(my soul name...not an 'elevated celestial personality' just me:-)))

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 2:12 am 

Caligastia:

I understand. No Beef.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 5:17 am 

Steffani Murray:

Likewise Congradulations Greg!

May you and your lady be truly blessed with your new 'little big guy'.

Only Love.
Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 5:40 am 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Rob...For some reason I feel it necessary to mention my comments below
are only the ones with the asterisks. It is commentary on an article by
a man named Thomas Sowell which I was utilizing to demonstrate how facts can be distorted by spin to 'prove' anything as a course in 'statistics'
will be able to make anyone see. This was the tie in to what you 'didn't get I meant' below. I also don't think it fair to use someone as an 'example' of something without providing a contextual definition and quotes from the person or other 'proofs' that they are as stated.I don't
have much interest in labeling people. However I.Q. and similar testing
is now not only 'being done' but more accurately with testing tools con=
tructed to allow for cultural differences such as language constructs and
examples familiar to the test taker. On the older tests there was reference to a game played by the parents of the new generation being tested which the youngsters had never heard of so all of them missed it no matter how smart. This was the sort of thing brought to awareness as
prejudicial and no by no means a 'dumbing down' of material.Thanks.

Only Love.
Steffani

Rob Smith (08/14/00 at 7:13 am) wrote:

>>Steffani Murray (08/11/00 at 9:32 pm) wrote:
>>
>>>>>>-- THE MODERN AGE has been called "the age of reason," as distinguished from past ages of faith. However, ideological faith has now begun displacing both reason and facts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>For example, hysteria about "global warming" continues unabated, despite satellite data which show the Earth to be a fraction of a degree cooler today than in 1979. These data come from the satellites of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Those who prefer to believe in global warming also prefer to use data from different sources, including readings taken in or near cities that are generating their own heat. But that is very different from NASA satellite readings of the temperature of the Earth's atmosphere, which is not warming. Those who are truly determined to promote the idea of global warming resort to computer models, which of course can produce virtually any outcome, depending on what assumptions are fed into the computer.
>>>>
>>>>>>*He has stated the first paragraphs set of data is valid...to actually
>>>>determine this is so both sets of data...all of it in fact...would have to be objectively studied by an unbiased impartial reviewer skillful in data interpretation and without preference to outcome other than scientific accuracy.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>Steff - In the past thirty or so years that we've had the global warming theory going around, many tests and experiments have been performed, with varying results. The existence of this phenomenon has not been PROVEN beyond any reasonable doubt. According to my standard of proof, it's been blown out of all proportion by some with an environmentalist agenda. When I was in grammar school (in the 1980s) we were told that Earth would be nearly uninhabitable by the year 2000. Kids are still taught this tripe in school and on TV today. Lots of 'em get out of there and can't count to five or read a job application, but BY GOD they know that global warming is going to kill everyone and the rain forests are disappearing (which has been effectively refuted BY GREENPEACE SCIENTISTS).
>>
>>
>>>>>>Misinterpretations of facts are just one problem. More brazenly, many denounce the very collection or publication of facts that go against their ideological faith.
>>>>
>>>>>>*Science often involves reality based 'facts' relating to the material properties of things found in nature yet researchers are often discovered to be skewing data to support their pet theories.
>>>>
>>
>>True enough...
>>
>>
>>>>>>Radical feminists like Gloria Steinem have denounced the collection of scientific data on biological differences between men and women. The feminist dogma is that "society" is responsible for creating artificial differences between males and females. Yet scientific study after scientific study -- many done by women, incidentally -- show differences between the sexes beginning in the womb, before they have ever seen "society."
>>>>
>>>>>>*This one makes a particular person 'like' an arbitrary 'buzzword'and stereotypical categorization as an emotionally charged 'smear' presenting no article or reference that 'Gloria Steinem' has ever actually said any such thing. Nor does it offer any definition of what a 'radical feminist' is.
>>>>He would have to at least offer a reference of an essay or book written by this person containing statements to this effect or quote them in context for me to buy into 'proof'this woman believes as he purports.
>>>>The statement made immediately after however is factually validated by much scientific research. Again no references to access it are given...
>>>>merely an inane statement relating to the gender of the scientists.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>Well, I've heard this very statement made over and over again by a variety of "radical feminists", so I can attest that it's been said. Given time, I can post several verifiable instances here, if you wish.
>>
>>
>>>>>>Boys have higher mortality rates, beginning in the womb, and unborn little girls show more mouth movements. Among adults, studies of brain activity
>>>>>>show the patterns of this activity to be different in men and women. No wonder the radical feminists want such research stopped.
>>>>
>>>>>>*Well we are still clueless as to whatever a 'radical feminist' might be
>>>>(unless we have formed a preconception elsewhere perhaps)or why they would
>>>>want research on complemental gender differences discontinued.
>>
>>
>>I believe he pointed out Gloria Steinem as an example of a "radical feminist". If you want to observe one, observe her.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>*Actually an excellent book of documented, referenced and yet highly readable material on this topic... if anyone is interested... has the unceremoneous title of 'Brain Sex'(the real difference between men and women) by Anne Moir Ph.D and David Jessel. It speaks on the subjects the gentlemen presents above in a manner I would consider to be irrelevant
>>>>propaganda tied to important information of great potential value to forming a society where true reality based equity of the type that promotes the happiness of both genders could be applied.
>>>>
>>>>>>Half a century ago, there was a survey of studies of black children with high IQs which listed 16 such studies of youngsters with IQs above 120, 130 or 140. Today, it is doubtful whether a single study of this sort is being done anywhere in the United States. In some places, it is forbidden by law or by politics to even test black children for IQs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Back when IQ tests were widely given, blacks usually scored about 15 points below the national average. Black "leaders" then demanded -- and received -- a ban on IQ tests for blacks, lest anyone think this difference was genetic. Of course, this ban stopped no one from thinking that. All it did was suppress facts, including facts which could argue against the genetic
>>>>>>interpretation.
>>>>
>>>>>>First of all, there have been various Caucasian groups in the United States with IQs 15 points below the national average, as well as other groups around the world with similar test scores. Whole nations' IQs have risen by that much, without any genetic change. Moreover, high-IQ blacks include several times as many females as males. That goes against both the genetic and the environmental theories of mental test differences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>But we are forbidden to explore such facts. At a time when black scores are going up on various tests, we are forbidden to find out if they are also going up on IQ tests. Since scores on different kinds of tests tend to be
>>>>>>correlated, chances are that black IQ test scores would also be going up -- if we were allowed to find out. But black "leaders" and white liberals won't let us.
>>>>
>>>>>>*What a crock of spun B.S. Anyone who accepts psychology as a science as well as an art could find valid research to support not only racial and cultural but gender bias to these tests. Societal 'truisms' are often a form of wisdom in their own way. Stereotypical comments from mothers about these tests "girls do better in English...Boys do better in math" were
>>>>rampant before anyone insisted on systematic research into if and why
>>>>this was so. These tests do have limited validity. Yes, documentation
>>>>of this research is also found in the previously recommended book or the
>>>>textbooks of the college down the roads used bookstore...and on the net no doubt. For every good sounding opinion its opposite can also be presented in an equally convincing 'argument' and which is selected as 'right' may be the preferred one of the teacher grading the papers or the boss signing
>>>>the paycheck of the survival or status externally motivated individual.
>>>>
>>
>>Forgive me, I'm not sure I get what you are talking about.
>>
>>
>>>>>>It is not just particular facts that are denounced or suppressed. Increasingly bold intellectuals are denigrating the very idea of facts. It's all how you look at it, according to the more airy and self-indulgent of the intelligentsia.
>>>>
>>>>>>*Facts in the hands of intelligent 'spin doctors' could manipulate a
>>>>good number of reasonably intelligent people into believing the unsupported opinion above.
>>
>>
>>Unsupported because testing is no longer allowed to be done for fear of the results.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Was Einstein's theory just a matter of how you looked at it? Even at Hiroshima or Nagasaki?
>>>>
>>>>>>*What indeed does relativity have to do with building an atom bomb?
>>>>I'm sure someone can invent some kind of theory and convince someone else
>>>>to believe it if they work at it.\
>>
>>
>>OK, but can their theory vaporize a city instantly? Theory remains such until it is proven. Now, I'm not on the intellectual level of Einstein, so I confess I'm not up to the task of proving or disproving any of his theories.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>The idea that there is no such thing as truth has gotten very fashionable in some quarters. It is now called "my truth" or "your truth" or somebody else's truth. But truth loses its meaning if it becomes private property. The whole point of truth is that it enables one person to rely on what someone else says.
>>>>
>>>>>>*Facts are facts which have nothing at all to do with 'truth'.
>>
>>
>>I disagree...If it ain't true, it ain't a fact. It's a lie. That's the point of this whole column, I believe.
>>
>>
>>>>If one is able to rely on what another has said it is because that person is 'truthful' meaning they do not willfully distort facts to attempt to
>>>>manipulate acceptance of their own inevitably perceptually selective version of 'reality' which is only visible from the place in which they are standing. Perspective changes not facts. Truth doesn't change either but is interpreted differently according to maturity level even to the same person...growth allows a more complete understanding.
>>
>>
>>Agreed - the moral of the story then, is NOT just to believe what the "pointy-heads" tell ya until you've kicked the tires yourself.
>>
>>Rob
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Behind all this evasion of reality is the simple fact that some people have constructed a vision of the world in their mind which differs greatly from the real world. And they cannot bring themselves to give up that vision. Nor will they allow others to shatter their vision with facts.
>>>>
>>>>>>*I would certainly try every evasive tactic I could think of to avoid allowing a person of limited vision to define the 'real world' or define
>>>> 'my' reality by their distortions of facts designed to control and imprison others.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>The real question is: Why do we take them seriously? Are we so easily impressed or intimidated by their airs of superiority?
>>>>>>
>>>>A very good question...why allow anyone to impress or intimidate us with any kind of spin when a simple presentation of facts in a straightforward manner could facilitate the process of making valid choices based on these
>>>>facts? The reason this so rarely occurs is because the majority of presenters have an investment in determining which choice is to be made.
>>>>
>>>>"Keep on thinking free"...the Moody Blues
>>>>
>>>>Only Love.
>>>>Steffani
>>
>>
>>

Steffani Murray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 8:01 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Rob Smith (08/14/00 at 11:01 am) wrote:

>>Steffani Murray (08/14/00 at 5:40 am) wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi Rob...For some reason I feel it necessary to mention my comments below
>>>>are only the ones with the asterisks. It is commentary on an article by
>>>>a man named Thomas Sowell which I was utilizing to demonstrate how facts can be distorted by spin to 'prove' anything as a course in 'statistics'
>>>>will be able to make anyone see. This was the tie in to what you 'didn't get I meant' below. I also don't think it fair to use someone as an 'example' of something without providing a contextual definition and quotes from the person or other 'proofs' that they are as stated.
>>
>>
>>If you're referring to the Gloria Steinem comment, feminists -- and she is a prominent one -- have been saying just this kind of stuff for years, and on the public record to boot. Mr. Sowell isn't making it up, I've heard it with my own two ears.

>>*** It is very possible that 'they' have...but from his writing I have
no clue as to what he means by a 'feminist'. I'm sure he isn't making 'it' up...it is only without a prior context...which I lack but you have heard,
you have the advantage of knowing 'what it is' and I don't.

>>Also, it appears that you believe Mr. Sowell has an agenda in writing this...in your opinion, what might that be?

>>***In this case I would choose not to formulate an opinion...
nor even hazard a wild guess.

>>I don't
>>>>have much interest in labeling people. However I.Q. and similar testing
>>>>is now not only 'being done' but more accurately with testing tools con=
>>>>tructed to allow for cultural differences such as language constructs and
>>>>examples familiar to the test taker.
>>
>>
>>Not long ago, someone shot a link up here to take a "shortened" IQ test. If memory serves, there was not one question that was culturally out of reach of any human being. Unless addition and subtraction of numbers, geometry and the like is just a cultural construct that somehow only white Christian males can understand. The ancient Mayans got the hang of advanced mathematics as we know. The Romans got it, the Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese and countless other civilizations were able to do this advanced stuff with considerably more ease than I do. This knowledge is preserved and taught down to this day, and 2 plus 2 still equals 4, no matter what continent you come from.
>>
>>***It is true that these sciences are not subject to the kind of problem
that was finally discovered by the 'duh' factor. I am fairly certain that the original 'how to' instruction manuals for the cultures you cite were respectively written in English, Mayan, Latin, Greek, Egyptian and Chinese,
the native languages of the teachers in most cases.

>>On the older tests there was reference to a game played by the parents of the new generation being tested which the youngsters had never heard of so all of them missed it no matter how smart. This was the sort of thing brought to awareness as
>>>>prejudicial and no by no means a 'dumbing down' of material.Thanks.
>>
>>
>>"Prejudicial" presupposes that there was the intent to "keep someone down". In the past maybe this was so, maybe not. I can't say that I know for sure. However, is it not more harmful today to "head off" people's ability to draw educated conclusions for or against by removing any objective efforts at testing and verification? Any preferential or special treatment of anybody is likely to breed feelings of hostility among those who are not members of the "protected" groups.
>>
>>*** Not necessarily. It merely indicates an 'unwarranted bias' provided by a shared cultural context in one group... that another does not benefit by...not being a member of that particular group. There may never have been any deliberately malevolent intentions at work here. Only cloudy consciousness that prevented real objectivity by allowing for differencesin a way that is fair to everybody. We all win by accurately identifying the naturally gifted and supporting their specialness to benefit society... while helping all to grow in areas of interest to them maximizing the potential for happiness that comes by finding ones' talents and developing the innate skills that provide meaning and a living while sharing the learned services with their communities.

>>>>Only Love.
>>>>Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 9:03 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Cal (08/14/00 at 11:40 am) wrote:

>>Steff:
>>
>> I'm not above plagerizing a really good line once in a while. This one, I'd never have thought of on my own.
>>
>>Facts are facts which have nothing at all to do with 'truth'
>>
>>Thanks.

>>Cal

Much Appreciated Cal...

You are most welcome to whatever you find useful among
the contents of that cosmic computer I call a Mind
as you now know I share it freely with EveryOne.
Who knows from whence it may have synthesized.
I am truly honored if a Thought of mine
has found meaning for you.

I took the duct tape one from 'funnies' Dennis sent me.

Don't you have a corollary that says not to confuse
technology with 'miracles'?
Sounds to me today from Greg's post though
that restoring a baby's breath and heartbeat
and life by means of technology is miraculous
and one many families can be thankful for...

Sorry about the elephant in the living room.

Only Love.
Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/14/00 at 10:32 pm 

Caligastia:

re: Miracles.

Raising the dead, healing lepers these would get me to believe your assertions. Oxygen doesn't do it for me. You'll have to pardon me, but I have an old age mind where a miracle really was something out of the ordinary.

Elephant? I thought you took it with you when you went home.

You've just inspired another corollary. See ya der.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/15/00 at 1:12 pm 

Caligastia:

It's time call a spade a spade. The extended dialogues between Steffani and I moved over to Ubook.org recently. Within the last week or so. Having failed in this arena, she seems to be opening another front for a different audience who isn't familiar with her act.

The attached post(s) speak for themselves.

Cal

Well Steff:
I'll agree that I stopped listening (completely) during your 3rd circuit thought the same material. I 'got it' the during the first rendition. The repetitions were unnecessary. When you get into something you haven't said before, I'll definitely pay attention.

You are also correct that I reduce your comments personally. You've already given admittance that you have willing aligned yourself with your invisible 'friends'. Having had the opportunity to see (with my own eyes) when they are 'on' and 'off', I'm of the opinion that 'they' are 'on' most of the time.
Logically, it makes little difference as your affiliation is willing. I, personally, have no appreciation for any so called 'elevated' personality too fearful to put on a skin suit and stand in my face. Their cowardice speaks poorly for what they are. Your willing collaboration against your own people does not speak well for you.

You presume yourself to be a teacher yet lack the traditional 'tags' of those so annointed. You travel around from UB function to UB function and have help from your 'friends' when you schedule needs to be 'opened'. The anointed teachers are best exampled in the Apostles who were given the ability to deliver proofs of their anointing - miracles.

In comparision, my 'reality' and my associations have been proven and shown to be 'in your face'. You profer delusion to the detriment of your fellows and I'm certain that, left unattended, your 'friends' would destroy every man, woman and child on this planet. I won't allow it.

I walk amongst man as man. I hide behind no dimensional blind. Unlike the UB and your buddies, I ask no one for faith. I deliver the evidence, hard - tanigble and in your face evidence.

You claim to be in cahoots with The Son and The Spirit of Truth. Produce them, and put them in my face. Your beliefs do not rise to the lowest levels of the reality. If your beliefs are, in truth, greater than my realities, you should be able to produce them. I have - why haven't you? It follows that you are the greater and I the lesser. Where then is the greater revelation of the truth and why is it that no one can put their hands on it?

You are, in my less than humble opinion, arrogant, presumptous, and blasphemous
in your self designations as a heavenly messenger and teacher. You and your friends would turn this world into a graveyard left to your own devices. Me and mine won't allow it.

You wondered why there will be a war in heaven. The answer is simple.
I will not suffer any traitor to commit injury upon my people. I stand against you now and forever. Wrapping your deceits in holy words serves only the delusion of the moment. I will establish the reality for all to see and know.

In my paradigm, the reality begets the belief and the knowing. In yours, the belief begets only the delusion of an opinion. Would you like to take bets on which of us will prevail?

The Urantia Foundation and the Urantia Book will fade quickly onto the trash heap of failed cults and failed delusions. For when the moment arrives that proof is demanded, you always fail. I don't.

Consider the gauntlet thrown.

Caligastia, Father's Loyal Son, Lanonandek 9344, Second Order.

>

> I'm sure Lenzap is quite capable of thinking and speaking for
> himself.
> You have amply demonstrated that you are also quite capable of
> this also.
> What you have not been willing to allow is that I am an individual
>
> who can do this also.

> You say I don't listen... but you have me so confused with what
> you hate and fear that you can't even hear what I actually say.
> Too bad you are even less willing than the average person to
> carefully consider what another says with any degree of objectivity.
>

> Teaching and learning are what life is all about in Creator Son
> universes.
> Everyone is inevitably demonstrating who they are and what they
> believe themselves to be continuously as long as time/space lasts.
>

> These are lessons to everyone else in making choices of how to
> be or not.
> In Father's Perfect Creation this will no longer be necessary.
>
> In Reality He is there Now and we are with Him.

> While engaged in the process of actualizing potentials most of
> us will make
> 'mistakes' as the growth of our experiential existences unfolds.
>
> (and maybe try a few things just to see if they can happen when
> no one else
> considers whatever it is possible...how genius creates progress
> or chaos).

> There is a saying in the 12-step programs...
> "take what you need and leave the rest".

> This principle encourages utilization of spiritual or informational
> texts...
> Or the things one's friends say effectively for one's own soul
> growth.
> This is how I can appreciate the UB material for its' value as
> scaffolding
> as well as that provided by the many other sources I see as gifts.
>

> Ultimately there is One Source of All...things and beings.
> I remain in a perpetually grateful state of because of this...
>
> You have no concept of the happiness the ideas shared by my brothers
>
> on this and other forums and venues including yours have brought
> to me.

> I do not know if ultimately all thinking is not really being
> done by God...
> But in the meantime I will treasure the idea that we are capable
> of being
> individuals and original thinkers for the purpose of eventually
> realizing
> that there is One that unifies the many within the Mind of the
> Sonship.
> All are really Love as He Is.

> If you choose to believe you have enemies you are free to do
> that for as long
> as you wish and find meaning in so doing. In Reality it isn't
> so. Often this situation reminds me of the ballroom scene at the end
> of the movie Titanic where the heroes and villains in the film greet
> one another appreciating one another's roles in making the production
> a success.
> The truth of heaven perhaps...take 3 and roll 'em?

> Only Love.
> Steffani
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/15/00 at 7:17 pm                                 

Alden:

Cal, I certainly hope the end is in sight for all the nonsense that has been centered around Steffani.I feel this woman has created a great diversion by diluting the impact and seriousness of this special website.If this was her goal as an operative,it seems to have worked to some extent.However I feel it is time to get back to the origins of the website, and that is to feed us information that is relevant to those of us out here,who are somewhat outside the inner loop. I for one,felt a negative reaction to her postings from the beginning. I was curious as to how long you were going to endure her insults and pompous self-grandising. Intellectually,her self-importance shrouded the impact as to what she was actually trying to say. To me, most of it came off as holier than thou gibberish. I definitely feel she was trying to discredit you before all of us. There are important days ahead of us,so why don't we get on with the task at hand and let the moles go on to there self-imposed darkness.

Alden.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/15/00 at 9:18 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Rob Smith (08/15/00 at 9:12 am) wrote:

>>Steffani Murray (08/14/00 at 8:01 pm) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>>>If you're referring to the Gloria Steinem comment, feminists -- and she is a prominent one -- have been saying just this kind of stuff for years, and on the public record to boot. Mr. Sowell isn't making it up, I've heard it with my own two ears.
>>>>
>>
>>>>>>*** It is very possible that 'they' have...
>>
>>
>>Didn't you say you were going to prove the "falseness" of the statements?
>>
>>+++ Only by the fact that he failed to 'prove' his point.

>>>>but from his writing I have
>>>>no clue as to what he means by a 'feminist'.
>>
>>
>>I think you do.
>>
>>+++ You thinking that I do doesn't make it so...
I still don't know. I suppose I could look the term up in a dictionary
if I had a reason to think the 'meaning' would matter to me.
Is it a euphemism ('femism'?) for a woman who 'likes' other women?

>>>>I'm sure he isn't making 'it' up...it is only without a prior context...which I lack but you have heard,
>>>>you have the advantage of knowing 'what it is' and I don't.
>>
>>
>>OK, I've seen and heard, you haven't. Now prove to me the "falseness".
>>
>>+++The 'falseness' is that he hasn't proved this is factual...
much less 'true'.

>>>>>>Not long ago, someone shot a link up here to take a "shortened" IQ test. If memory serves, there was not one question that was culturally out of reach of any human being. Unless addition and subtraction of numbers, geometry and the like is just a cultural construct that somehow only white Christian males can understand. The ancient Mayans got the hang of advanced mathematics as we know. The Romans got it, the Greeks, Egyptians, Chinese and countless other civilizations were able to do this advanced stuff with considerably more ease than I do. This knowledge is preserved and taught down to this day, and 2 plus 2 still equals 4, no matter what continent you come from.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>***It is true that these sciences are not subject to the kind of problem
>>>>that was finally discovered by the 'duh' factor.
>>
>>
>>OK. Statement #2 can then be classified as "true" or, "a fact".
>>
>>+++Facts=factual...what is 'true' is not in the same order of reality.
these are not comparable...accuracy is hardly a synonym for veracity.

>>>>I am fairly certain that the original 'how to' instruction manuals for the cultures you cite were respectively written in English, Mayan, Latin, Greek, Egyptian and Chinese,
>>>>the native languages of the teachers in most cases.
>>
>>
>>And...? Freudian psychology was originally spelled out in German, correct? I guess that places it out of the grasp of non-Germanic peoples. Catholic Mass was, until fairly recently said only in Latin. If the originating language is so all-important, how come the church rituals didn't die with the Roman Empire? The United States discovered how to build and use nuclear weapons. China has bought, stolen, or been given the plans to manufacture these weapons. I doubt highly that the plans were written in Chinese. How then did they accomplish this? How do even the dimmest people understand that if you have one of a thing and I give you another of the same thing, you now have two things. I'm assuming that most don't speak ancient Mayan.
>>
>>+++ I believe that most of the rituals of the Catholic church rituals were developed over a course of history that went on long after the demise
of the Roman Empire...unless you consider the Vatican its continuance?
Latin is a lovely and useful language but the church decision makers must have thought that hearing the Mass in their own modern languages would make the service more meaningful to the churchgoing faithful...or they would not have implemented these changes...the essence remains unchanged.

+++I would suggest these accomplishments were facilitated by the work of skillful and accurate translators.
>>
>>
>>>>>>"Prejudicial" presupposes that there was the intent to "keep someone down". In the past maybe this was so, maybe not. I can't say that I know for sure. However, is it not more harmful today to "head off" people's ability to draw educated conclusions for or against by removing any objective efforts at testing and verification? Any preferential or special treatment of anybody is likely to breed feelings of hostility among those who are not members of the "protected" groups.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>*** Not necessarily. It merely indicates an 'unwarranted bias' provided by a shared cultural context in one group... that another does not benefit by...not being a member of that particular group. There may never have been any deliberately malevolent intentions at work here. Only cloudy consciousness that prevented real objectivity by allowing for differencesin a way that is fair to everybody.
>>
>>
>>If you come up with one single solitary idea that every person, without exception, will accept as 'fair and unbiased', you win the grand prize. I'll be waiting right here.
>>
>>+++Father loves each of his sons as much as s/he is the only One...
this is a 'true' statement by the way. The point in time/space
where everyone realizes the truth of it might require a 'holy instant'.
I've already won the 'grand prize' by realizing this fact is the truth.

>>>>We all win by accurately identifying the naturally gifted and supporting their specialness to benefit society... while helping all to grow in areas of interest to them maximizing the potential for happiness that comes by finding ones' talents and developing the innate skills that provide meaning and a living while sharing the learned services with their communities.
>>
>>
>>Nope, this is the job of 1. parents; 2. Churches; 3. the individuals in question.
+++ Not all parents are capable of homeschooling their children well.
Those who are and do that I've met voice concerns about inadequate
'socialization' available to their kids in such a setting with limited
contacts for play and interactions.
Not every church has the resources to also fund school facilities for parishioners children.
The Catholic church has been able to provide well staffed schools (in terms of numbers at least) due to the amount of free 'slave' labor available to it. The horror stories of what many persons I know have experienced in paroachial schools include cruelty, sexual molestation
(as would be expected), and other forms of abuse.
I have learned from listening to friends as well as patients the reason for the expression 'recovering catholic'. If this topic offends you I could find a few medical 'statistics' on the prevalence of HIV disease
in the priesthood in this country and a few other unlovely subjects.
>>
>>In summary, your original response to the article posted was that you were going to demonstrate its "falseness". On three out of four points, you have indicated that what I say is true. You also have several times decried the lack of "proof".
>>
>>I can't help but wonder -- if Dr. Sowell posted a message here, declaring that he was wrapped in Michael's love and the spirit of truth -- would this be "proof" enough for you to believe his assertions? I think not.

>>+++ I'm sure the Spirit of Truth would bear witness if he were 'wrapped
in Michael's love' or not...no need to wonder about that being revealed.

>>My opinion is that your "proofs" have barely risen above nitpicking at best. I don't see that any of the originating statements in the column have been effectively disproven. Sorry, I call it like I see it. But, ultimately, others will decide for themselves.

+++If you choose to believe that your opinions are 'the truth' because
they are yours...so be it. However, should you decide to impose them
upon others because your worldview is 'correct' you may find that they
do not agree to go along with your suppositions.
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>Only Love.
>>>>>>>>Steffani
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>Only Father's Will
+++ Indeed!

>>Rob
>>
>>
>>
>>

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/15/00 at 9:26 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Alden...
I can accept all of this as your reactions and opinion...
but 'insults' were never intended.

Only Love.
Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/15/00 at 10:03 pm 

Caligastia:

Alden:
The value is in the journey. This trip has now only two sides. The good guys and the bad guys. How can we identify evil, much less stand up to it if it isn't allowed to exist? I will not, for example, block Steffani's access to this forum regardless of how many people she tries to turn. The extended dialogues served a purpose and, I've been told, I've been patient.
No one of my strong points. As I've said, Steffani is not unique. There's something to be learned from this.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/15/00 at 10:07 pm 

Caligastia:

Steffani:
Sure they were. It should be pretty clear by now you haven't fooled or turned anyone here. One major difference between us is that I'll tell you what I think to your face. I don't target anyone's back.

Have a nice life.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/16/00 at 10:44 am 

Steffani Murray:

*Well...apparently my efforts to communicate on this forum have utterly
failed. Sorry I can't make reality go away for you guys or me but why
continue to try...you are doing a good enough job on your own.

Rob Smith (08/16/00 at 9:45 am) wrote:

>>Cal (08/15/00 at 10:07 pm) wrote:
>>
>>>>Steffani Murray (08/15/00 at 9:26 pm) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Alden...
>>>>>>I can accept all of this as your reactions and opinion...
>>>>>>but 'insults' were never intended.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Only Love.
>>>>>>Steffani
>>
>>>>Steffani:
>>>> Sure they were. It should be pretty clear by now you haven't fooled or turned anyone here. One major difference between us is that I'll tell you what I think to your face. I don't target anyone's back.
>>>>
>>>>Have a nice life.
>>>>
>>>>Cal
>>>>
>>>>*Cal... If this had been my intent I think a 'wordsmith' could have done a much more effective job. Going to ESG was not to target your back but to take what annoys your 'true believers' out of your back yard. You
dragged it back here like a puppy who hasn't chewed a bone enough...
>>

>>I concur. This act isn't working, Steff. You not only insulted Alden, but in your last rebuttal, you took shots at me as well as the entire Catholic Church. How holy of you.

*A church is made of the people who join it. The stories I found disturbing
were told by those within it who were hurt by individuals... but at times the institutional cloak was used to cover up the darkness. If it is insulting to catholics Rob... those were the very people reporting their pain in the hope of finding relief or justice.

*This is by no means the only 'organized religion' (another media coined not entirely descriptive term) that persists in hurting people in God's name.

*I do not watch television or read newspapers or 'public opinion' focused magazines anymore...most of what I get in these areas is filtered through the people I meet and talk to or in scientific or professional journal type periodicals. So perhaps it is my own glaring chosen ignorance
because I exist in a cave by choice and not so very much 'on this planet'
that is the reason for my problem in communication online. In a sense I
am an 'alien' by having alienated myself from much others think important.

*You and the others here apparently choose to experience 'life' by forming opinions that are subject to change with tomorrow's news reports which you
would insist are 'truth and reality' for everyone 'right and wrong' or 'good and evil' perpetually in conflict or competition for 'points'
or 'being right'.

*Individual perception certainly causes differences that prevent people from seeing the world in the same or having the same point of view as a
guy down the street or on the other side of the globe. My way of thinking
simply doesn't fit in around these parts nor is tolerance given more than
lip service and briefly. You will say you've all been very patient waiting
for me to come to see things as you do, but since I don't the right thing
to do is get the hell away and leave you unthreatened by an opportunity
to change your mind about anything at all.
>>
>>You are not representative of Father's attitude. I spoke with him personally, so I know FIRST HAND what he is like. He spoke the truth to me in two sentences. NO GIBBERISH OR DOUBLE SPEAK! Can you? You haven't so far.

*Nor would you be willing to believe anything anyone said that tried to invalidate the reality of your personal experience with Him under any
circumstances... and neither can I.

*Father knows you better than you know yourself...why then would it be
difficult for Him to speak truth to you succinctly in the way you could hear it best. But I am a creature... not the Creator of the Universe.

*He has given me a whole 'peace of His mind' (in a very real sense that I am a Spirit and have a soul) as He has to you and everyone. But is it not unreasonable to expect a baby to do the work of a grown up or be able to talk as well as a mature person. Does this mean the baby should be forbidden to babble before it can learn to talk so it can be understood. Babbling is essential to the process and without doing this s/he will never learn to speak the parent's language.
As are stumbling and falling in learning to walk uprightly.
>>
>>The sad thing is that I enjoyed your company and left Colorado wishing that I had made a point to tell you so. I failed to do this, that's my fault. However, you are now about the business of trying to corrupt others. You willingly accept your orders to do so. Think about it, Steff. When the War in Heaven is over and the crimes trials are taking place will you take the stand and utter "I was just following orders"? Remember how nobody bought that load of hogwash at Nuremberg. YOU WILL FAIL IN THIS MISSION.

I thought you were pretty cool too Rob.
Your accusations are not valid.
I am responsible to speak the truth as I see it too.
This is the best I am capable of now...
It is evidently not what anyone wants to hear.
So be it!

Only Love.
Steffani
>>
>>Enjoy,
>>Rob

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/16/00 at 11:30 am 

Steffani Murray:

Alice,
I do not counsel with abused children but adults. Mostly drug addicts
and alcoholics who are continuing the cycle of abuse because their own pain is out of control.

If you have ever looked at the 12-steps you have seen that surrendering to
God and service to others are the cornerstones to recovery. The Big Book of A.A. calls addiction "self will run riot".

If their really were such things as 'attachments' these types of overwhelming compulsions might be an expected result.

But to judge people with a biochemical disorder as 'possessed' would remove the responsibility for recovery and management of their disease off their shoulders where it surely belongs.(many do come in blaming
'the devil' who really didn't do it)

On my other worksite there are incest and ritual cult survivors in the patient population.

For these folks finding a measure of peace is necessary for survival.

Do you avoid people with real problems? Or are you willing to give them
the time knowing that except for grace you could be sitting in the same
chair. Do you do everything you can everyday to make the world a safer
place for God's Children?

Maybe you should meet someone face to face and find out what their life
is really about before you ask a question of this kind?

Only Love...anyhow
Steffani

Alice (08/16/00 at 12:34 pm) wrote:

>>Is anyone concerned that this person and her attachments are counceling with abused children?

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

08/16/00 at 12:36 pm 

Caligastia:

Nina:

I let this go on for as long as I have for a good reason. I don't expect you folks to believe me. It is much better for you to see for yourselves and the repetition allowed the point to be driven home over and over and over again. There comes a time, of course, to pull the plug.

For example, I can talk about ufos, but it was much better for the advenii people to actually see for themselves. No belief, in your face fact.

Actually, I had the time to play with so I haven't been diverted from anything. Steffani's original intent, I think, was to 'turn' me. At this point, it should be obvious that's a lost cause. Secondarily, to go after the people who are coming here and to HQ. To this end, they inflitrate wrapped in holy words etc. However, the varnish of the holy words peels off when their feet are held to the fires of the truth. Then the wormcake (frosting on the outside worms on the inside) becomes obvious.

Now, most of the people here are too polite to have gone confrontational.
The universe believes such practices are poor ones. It was their hope that in confronting, I'd be perceived as a lowly person. Normally, I wouldn't have done so. Regardless, they don't understand the heart of man and their effort failed.

In all these things, good purpose was served - not for me - I already knew - but for those who need to see and establish the template. It is rare that the universe will create a new action - such innovation is generally beyond their ken. Thus the scope of the Steffani dialogues has a broader application.

Moral of the story?

If it looks like crap, tastes like crap and smells like crap - best not step in it:)

Cal

Nina (08/16/00 at 8:30 am) wrote:

>>Cal:
>>
>> I'm in agreement with Alden, in the general sense that; there will be many diversions offered before you(and probably each/all of us).
>>We all can see who is side-tracking you.
>> She's liking it.
>>I believe that you see her as attempting to compete with you.
>> All the while that you are assuring her that she is no competition for the likes of you; she's STILL liking it!
>> But- is her agenda one of competition? I don't think so. Is she believing that she is achieving her agenda? Yes, I think we'd all agree that she feels this is, and will continue to believe so, as long as no one does anything differently.
>> Perhaps it's time to strengthen your skills of 'planned ignoral'.
>> Sincerely ~Nina~
>>

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08/16/00 at 1:20 pm 

Caligastia:

These things would have been easier and preferable if we didn't have a live human being as the immediate exemplar. As the circumstances precluded this, we work with what we have.

I offer these perspectives.

1. Steffani is basically a good person. I mean this in the truest sense of the word good.
2. Her life endeavors are such that she does truly care about people and wish to be of help to them.
3. She reached out into the universe looking for 'the truth'. She found her 'friends'. They got to her first and established a relationship that she has come to trust. This relationship should endure the tests of logic and reason but Steffani has made no effort to apply skepticism and analysis to the equation. For her, belief is of greater importance than the reality, so she doesn't care to look.
4. She has a 'need' that they fulfill.(Refer to chapter on the nature of evil on the website.)
5. Earth's judgement process is skewed due to the prevailing circumstances.
Normally, there's only one judgement and that's it. Here, there are 3.
The first two are performed under my auspices and the last only by the Son.
This due to the fact that, at that moment in time, I'll no longer be the planetary prince but stand in service under the Son's authority. The first judgement was performed in April 1997.
6. Steffani was well judged. This will not change regardless of the attachments. Her judgement occurred before the arrival of the delusion.
7. Now, this is where this is going to get tricky. During the 3 days of rapture, many will ask to come back, mostly wanting the help loved ones left behind. We'll attempt to dissuade them but if they are adamant, it will be permitted although they'll not be allowed contact with their families. If their presence were to have had value, it already would have.
Steffani will insist on returning to 'help'. Her attachments will insist on it. She will comply with their wishes.
8. Those left behind are considered 'the dead'. Were this a universal world, they'd be executed. There is no protocol to determine how these things are handled. The Son will establish those rules on the fly. This situation is a first in the history of the universe.
9. Steffani's return after rapture includes also an enormous change in status. She is no longer protected by the protocols of mortality and stands as a fully fledged universal citizen. The moment her actions deviate from the Son's protocols, she runs enormous risk.
10. Her friends will see to it that such deviation occurs and she willingly will go along in the commission of sin.
11. To date, there is only one penalty for treason.

I can't tell you the enormous sadness I feel to see one of earth's children, who have endured so much, throw it all away for a delusion.
This, particularly, when the Son himself is available to say otherwise.
This is the nature of her freewill.

Steffani:
*Well...apparently my efforts to communicate on this forum have utterly
failed. Sorry I can't make reality go away for you guys or me but why
continue to try...you are doing a good enough job on your own. "

Cal:

"Sorry, I can't make the reality go away for you guys or me."

I take this as a truthful admittance of her mission parameters and she is on a mission assignment. The ranks of the Urantia Foundation and its various reading groups have been inflitrated to the teeth by such operatives. The UBF sees its mission to infect as much of the planet as it can with the delusion and the lie. Steffani, and others like her, are the agents to spread that infection.

"Sorry, I can't make the reality go away for you guys or me."

It would be so easy to point a finger at Steffani and say, "She must be nuts". It wouldn't be true - she isn't. People dismiss others who don't conform to their paradigms or expectations in such off handed fashions. I can't tell you how many emails I've had that start

"You must be out of your bleeping mind".

Instead, recognition of the reality. It is what it is. Steffani is what she is. We all have the choice. You were granted freewill in a universe that isn't allowed to practice freewill. You are a unique and special people.

For Steffani, I'd suggest you remember her in your prayers and your hopes.

Each of you found your way to the web page on your own efforts. A few to this forum and fewer still to Colorado. The truth speaks and stands for itself and on its own. Those who stand in Father's service come to give.
We measure success in what we have given, not what we've taken. Yet, I do have one personal reward here. The pride I feel in those of you who have seen clearly. At the risk of seeming slightly arrogant, this is a father's pride in watching his child take their first step or swimming to the deep end of the pool on their own. It is a minor indulgence:)

Cal

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08/16/00 at 9:53 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Allie...
Thanks for this one...technomancers and mages indeed. Incredibly complex.
This is the sort of stuff my 21 yr. old son Rei would dream up. I love the
Egyptian history angle. You are right about the image. Sacred geometry
trips my trigger bigtime. Thoth is pretty cool...I have a little workshop flyer with a picture of him tucked behind my heater thermostat in my living
room just for fun. Gotta watch out for those ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses though...you might find yourself getting affectionately
'attached' to them or something ;-)
Greg's conspiracy link might equal a modern equivalent as a game source:)

Only Love.
Steffani.

Allie (08/16/00 at 4:25 pm) wrote:

>>Over the weekend I spent a little time surfing, and I followed those spam links to that site about Arthur the Antichrist. There were other various links that I took from there and ended up at the following site:
>>
>>http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/Mage/Egypt/index.html
>>
>>This main index page had all the right symbols to catch my attention (big time!!!) The site is called "Egypt in the Land of Horus" and flipping through the chapters I got totally caught up in a plot of characters and gods. Sometimes I can be a bit slow to catch on (especially with this site), but it eventually dawned on me that there was something not quite "right" about the whole thing. I did a bit of backtracking and then discovered that I was on a STUDENT server at what looks like a university or something, and this whole web site is a plot for a PC GAME !!!!!!!!!
>>
>>Its damned good !!!! for a PC game plan.
>>
>>Right at the bottom in the credits, the author gives main credit to THE GOD THOTH. I'm not surprised that it appealed to me!
>>
>>Jokes aside, I learnt a few things...
>>- Specific symbols "trigger" things within me. This is especially so with the pyramid symbol
>>- The star on the main index page is exactly as I remember the six-spoked star (Father's Eye) as Cal took us up to 6D. I remember thinking at the time that I expected it to be much brighter...
>>- The Egyptian god THOTH seems to have inspired a lot of people, even PC game authors in modern times!!! Must have been a great guy!! (still is)
>>- Lastly, and probably most importantly, it is easy to jump to wrong conclusions when given only a little bit of info. (Just as I did with this Egypt site.) It really does help to get all the facts first and then come to a conclusion based on these facts. This is a good lesson that can be applied in all areas of life.
>>
>>Allie

Steffani Murray
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