07/10/00 at 9:30 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Sorry Alice...The bottom line is that I have been believing the Urantia book party line for quite a while without ever having heard the other side of the story from Cal (or Lucifer) or other beings involved in the 3rd system wide rebellion in the universe of Nebadon.
. Unfortunately so far when I ask Cal why I should believe his version of things he mostly tells me..."because I said so that's why"! This reminds me of the attitude he claims is the very same problem with which he took issue with 'the universe'. So there's some history here and I remain perplexed at present. I am determined to get to the bottom of it and know the whole truth before all is said and done. So I keep trying...
Thanks for your interest and concern.
Only Love. Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/10/00 at 9:50 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Cinde5/BF :-)
I love the hell out of Cal... and really feel honored that he is willing to bother with me at all. For reasons I am not at liberty to discuss I will tell you he has every right to 'hit me with his best shot'repeatedly.
I don't feel he is unduly 'hard on me'. I find little worthy of discussion
other than religion and (divine) politics and the fireworks these topics generate is my idea of 'cosmic' fun. (especially on UBRON or ESG) I am often accused of engaging in both 'good and evil' but those distinctions are meaningful to others but not present in my own mind. Fear not...Cal often tells me when to 'sit down and shut up' and will probably do so again soon.
All of this is A. O.K. with me. It doesn't feel like 'arguing' to me either.

Only Love. Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/11/00 at 1:35 am 

Caligastia:

>>>>***** Of course I know that you have these abilities...everyone does...at least potentially. If you remember I suggested to Janey on this forum that she should give you a break in trying to decipher her disconnected visions BECAUSE you don't have a TA to 'hyperlink' the way far 'out there' stuff for you. I just think TA's are truthful accurate Sources of information for those who find themselves in mortality. Maybe Cal doesn't need one but Bob could have effectively benefitted from this ministry longer if he had so chosen.
>>>>

A little arrogant aren't we? You first assume need where none exists then you assume abilities (TA) of which you have no proving. Show me the beef, and I'll be happy to reconsider my position. Finally, your proposition assumes a split in identity between Bob and Cal when, in reality both are the same individual with two different names.

>>>> I remain unconvinced as to the reliability of the one over the other since I do >>>>>>'believe' the TA to be an actual whole 'holy')individualized particle of
>>>>>>Father's Being.
>>>>
>>>>Believe as you will. when you can show me the 'particle' I'd be more impressed.
>>
>>>>***** You could see it for your own self anytime you want...all you have to do is ask Father.

Nope. It's your belief. The responsibility for establishing the reality is yours.

>>>>
>>>>It's Presence within the mind brings with It complete invulnerability... protection from the machinations of 'evil'(those who have forgotten what they are).I really don't know anyone who tries to pass themselves off as 'elevated'.
>>>>
>>>>Yes yes, I've heard this by rote repetition from the UB before. (from you - when I was listening)
>>
>>>>***** I told you in person about a few discoveries that I had made about my Self long before I found the UB to explain to me what had happened in words that I could understand.

Steffani, early in the awakening, I recognized the need to establish a level of proof that others could follow. To that end, I documented, photographed and recorded in sufficient detail that which would allow anyone possessed with a logical and unbiased mind to follow. A thing is what it is regardless of what it is called. Your elevated ideas on TA's
have not one iota of objective evidence to support the proposition (nor does the UB's). Your assumption that people need TA's to communicate with Father ignores the fact a person is already hardwired into Father by virture of his soul. Yet, even were you to reject this - there are many many angels who don't have TA's, you know one, who can have direct discourse with Father at will. This last example undermines your theory and belief.

>> Or attempt to communicate to others about this experience. If you were unable to hear me about this it doesn't mean it didn't happen... but only that there is nothing within your own realm of experience to relate to this occurence in a meaningful way. That's o.k.

Conversely, it could just as easily mean that the 'experience' is a delusion seeking to fulfill a need. By way of example. The first rule of the scientific method is naturalistic observation. If you find 100,000 people who report the same observation, you have the beginnings of a fact.
Single experiential instances, in the absence of tangible proofs, are not objective evidence. Again returning to the difference between a belief system and a reality system. One is chosen, the other simply is.

>>I have found others who do... so it is no longer as important as during the years before I had found anyone at all to share it with who could accept the reality of my story.
>>
>>
"My story". Personalizing this to myself, Who amongst you would even consider, for a minute, that I was truly Caligastia had I not served up a healthy dose of proof? None would, nor would I blame them. I demanded proofs and I got them. I don't feel so special or blessed that I don't think I did anything that others couldn't do.

>>>>>> I have a friend who is an astrophysicist and although I am well versed on many scientific matters for a 'layperson' there is at times a need for him to use less technical words and concepts in explaining things to me than he would in speaking with similarly educated fellow scientists for me to 'get it'. This doesn't necessarily mean that I am less intelligent
>>>>>>...just unfamiliar with jargon and ideas that I haven't had the opportunity to experience to that degree. This is simply a matter of common sense.

The issue of words has been with you and I for a long time now. I speak English and use old age concepts known to most. You choose a vehicle of more recent construction that only a relative few indulge. I accept that it is better to speak in the language of the common man and I will not alter this position as I know it to be correct. Thus, we will continue to have this problem.

>>>>
>>>>>>Right now we have had a struggle to find words that mean enough in common for both of us to try to understand each other with mortal 'peabrains'
>>>>>>...do you suppose it will be easier or harder
>>>>>>to communicate when you 'repersonalize' and are in a completely different modality of consciousness.

Why don't you survey the other participants in the adventure and seek to discover if they have the same problem you've encountered with my use of language. If so, perhaps you have a point. If not, then it will be easier to identify who owns the problem.

I reject your designation of 'mortal peabrains'. I do not view my fellows in such a poor light.

My interactions with 'celestial' personalities
>>>>>>have always been loving and positive...that is all I know based on my own experience.
>>>>>>

How is the love expressed? Do you believe that attachments to an unwitting party constitutes love? Do you believe that manipulation via that attachment to be holy or heavenly? What is it the attacher receives in return for his effort? What are his intents - what does he do with the information gleaned from the intrusions. Once these questions have been answer AND proof placed on the table - I might be able to discern whether or not there was any love in the violation of a human beings free will.

>>>>
>>>>1. I don't seem to have any trouble getting across to most people. You seem to be an exception. Mostly in that I won't learn New Age with Old One works much better.
>>
>>>>***** Your interactions with Old One are telepathic mindlinks...yes?
>>
Yes

>>>>2. As to your loving interactions with celestials - BS! 'all I know' is right. When all of this love is going on, I saw a different person. Even Old One drew it to your attention. For two days, I tended to your security and those with us and did so with the tacit agreement of all concerned.
>>>>The limit of your knowledge is the problem and your unwillingness to go beyond 'all I know'.
>>>>
>>>>3. You have the right to be used and/or manipulated if you wish. YOu can dress it up and call it elevated and celestial. Yet, in my book, its no different than being mugged in a dark alley.
>>>>
>>>>***** Amazing that you would think so...I am perfectly safe at all times.

And will remain so as long as you are a willing participant. Remove the willingness from the equation and see how it goes.

>>My peace is maintained and nothing occurs without my permission. Jackie was the one who appeared to be undergoing significant distress from the 'attachment' you seemed to believe would be aimed in my direction...
>>that did appear to me to be an unwelcome attack on her from an 'energy' she
>>couldn't handle without your help.

Incorrect reading. This came from a different quarter and had nothing to do with you. However, perhaps you might have learned how unpleasant these holy and elevated beings can get when they don't get what they want. I told Jackie in the beginning that being with me wouldn't be easy. Because of her close association with me, she is frequently targeted. In most instances, she has developed the ability to handle it herself. This was an exception.
You might also note, they don't want to play with me and instead chose to prey upon another's mortality.

Why then does that happen to her when she lives with you under your 'security'?

Generally, I don't protect Jackie. I provided Father's Ring around the totality of the lair and the keep during our excursion to prevent my guests from having to endure what you saw with Jackie. Jackie is learning to swim.
She has to wade into the ocean and deal with the currents. If it becomes more than she can handle, I jump in. Her abilities are such that she has already surpassed any mortal and would, by current definition, be properly designated as an ascended master. Were I standing in front of her all the time, she'd have no need to develope the abilities she possesses.

>My trust is in Father and that which Michael taught me about 'energy projections' long ago...along the lines of whatever you send out with harmful intent eventually comes back to the sender...ergo holding harmless and helpful intent towards all beings

This thought is a product of wicca and a variety of other 'magic' based philosophies. The idea of karma. You attempt to pin a Terran system of thought and belief upwards on a universal scale. While I'll agree that every dog does get his day (eventually) you may also which to note that the bad guys do win and people suffer enormously in the doing. So, a miscreant angel doesn't give a rat's backside to any idea of karma, particularly when they've deluded themselves that they serve some higher and holy purpose.

>>ensures safety and nothing else can or ever will. That is my understanding of Father's law. (love always works)

Really? I guess Adolph Hitler did a whole lot of loving then. Pardon the sarcasim here but Pollyana wasn't any more real than the tooth fairy.

> Neither I nor 'the other persons' mean you any harm...you will come to realize this eventually.

I have no fear or concern here Steffani and I'm not certain where you got the idea.

>>>>>>
>>>>>>+++ The only 'adverse energy' that I encountered during the entire experience was whatever tried to convince Dennis that I would try to interfere with Father's Plan for his life. In reality I had stated that
>>>>>>completing his mission and being about Father's business is all that matters. Whether that misperception came from his own mind or not I cannot say.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Dueling spirits? I rather think that incident was the result of Dennis' subconscious recognition of the attachment issue where you were concerned.
>>>>His reaction was, admittedly, an over reaction and I, personally, already knew you were transporting an uninvited guest.
>>
>>>>***** Not unless Dennis forgot for a moment who it is he works for and that what He says goes. The Creator of the universe and His designated consort and associates are rarely referred to as 'uninvited guests'. They
>>do have the right to be whereever and with whomever they wish
>>...nevertheless permission is duly asked for and always granted.
>>(even if Immanuel must put Dennis in a headlock to get it :-)

Whoa....I think you just left the planet. You assume that Michael of Nebadon was attached to you? Not a chance in Heaven or Hell. Furthermore, he is as mortal as you and incurs the limitations of mortality in the bargain. Believe as you will, but we know exactly and precisely where he is
at all times. I have two angelic guardians on him and two nordics 24 hours a day without exception. Intruding upon a person's mortality is so far beyond the boundaries of any acceptable behavior that it carries with it a death penalty. Not even with the apostles did Jesus perform such an endeavor. However, for the sake of arguement, lets say you're right in your assumptions. Prove it!

>>
>>>>>>>>+++ Excuse me Dear One...wasn't intolerance and the extermination of that which was inimicable to the established order the initial problem
>>>>>>that has made it necessary for you to feel you have to fight for survival in the first place... >>doesn't this sort of behavior perpetuate it?

Let's see. Fighting for my life, perpetuates the conflict with those who would kill me. The obvious solution is to let 'them' (whoever they might be) succeed. Do you see a flaw in this reasoning?

>>>>
>>>>I hate to tell you this Steffani but war does solve problems and resolve conflicts. However, where The Earth is concerned, those uninvited guests remaining here do so in the knowledge that tolerance is one of my practices - until I have a reason not to be tolerant. The list of those reasons is now as long as my leg. The right to exercise soverignity over this world is mine.
>>>>
>>>>***** For whom does war solve problems and resolve conflicts without causing more of the same only differing in forms?

Well, let's see. The American Revolution got the British outta here and today, half the island would give their eye teeth to immigrate here.
Hitler was quashed by virture of war. Most would agree that was a good thing. I could go on for some time but I think you get the idea.

To avoid conflict and war, in your paradigm, better that Adolf should have succeed in his genocidal plans. The example is as extreme as your exemplar.

I'll console myself with the fact the list won't be over a yard long yet for a while ...sorry!

Get a history book Steff - the list is way past a yard.

>>You need to keep in mind Dear One that until I met you in your current state last February on UBRON I thought Michael's regent was doing a jam up job as planetary prince and you were night-night beddy bye in the darkness asleep somewhere.

Could this mean that one of your belief's changed? However, your comment is factually flawed. You indicated that you believed conditions on this world sucked. Hardly what I'd call a bang up job.

>>This is an interesting development in the Divine and no longer quite so benign X-files episodes that I seem to have wandered into to make life ever more interesting.
>>>>>>

>>>>>>It remains my hope that everyone will come to the realization that the 'jihad' is internal before needless further divestation is unwisely chosen. How can waging still one more war bring peace?
>>>>
>>>>What a remarkably universal word. "Jihad", few would use it in this context and most would think it specific to Arabs.
>>
>>>>***** You would prefer the term 'holy war'? That sounds oxymoronic to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm sorry but for me the war was in my own mind and it is over...
>>>>>>I have made another choice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I know.
>>
>>>>***** You have the option of joining me in making the same decision for a One Power universe NOW...

I made that decision long ago. One Creator Son as absolute dictator and ruler. I'll settle for nothing less. I made my stand long before you were a glimmer in Father's eye.

>>Out of time in reality Father has already won.

The out of time reality spawns from the in time reality. They are not separate.

>>As a matter of fact none of this other stuff ever really happened at all.
>>That is the reason His Love is unconditional.
>>
Really? Well then, I'm due for a long overdue vacation.

Cal
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07/11/00 at 7:58 am 

Steffani Murray:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/11/00 at 12:11 pm 

Caligastia:

>>>>^^^^^Well... I could describe the process of taking a bath but the total significance of the experience will elude anyone who refuses to actually get in the water. There are subjective realities such as 'knowing God'
>>that are unprovable in the physical/material realm yet incontrovertible
>>to the experiencer of the knowing.

I get it - no proof.

>>>>^^^^^ I started out in this life as a devotee of the scientific method.
>>I have had experience that put me in the situation of the character of Jodie Foster in 'Contact' with a completely blown paradigm of former beliefs about the nature of 'reality'. Not ordinarily being prone to psychiatric disturbances before or since I have concluded after much personal research that this event was no delusion...aside from the physical evidence that was left at my request. Anyway it remains the 'realest' thing that I have ever known to this day and all that I am today is based upon it as a value system.

What you describe here is an abduction.

>>>>"My story". Personalizing this to myself, Who amongst you would even consider, for a minute, that I was truly Caligastia had I not served up a healthy dose of proof? None would, nor would I blame them. I demanded proofs and I got them. I don't feel so special or blessed that I don't think I did anything that others couldn't do.
>>>>
>>>>^^^^^ You may have observed that I have required no 'proof' about you.

If you don't require proof to the proposition, that's your call - but it is on the net regardless. What you saw last weekend was a shared experience which constitutes OBJECTIVE evidence.

>>I merely asked... All of the 'proofs' you have amassed do seem singularly
>>'blessed' by your own interpretations.

Really? I've made few interpretations. Logical form demands the establishment of a premise, facts and evidence and then inference or deduction based upon that evidence. What you arbitrarily call an interpretation is not.

I do not think anyone else would have placed the same characterizations on the sculptures in your lovely
>>'rock garden' that you have according to your own understandings of universal events.

Agreed, none would have because they wouldn't have been visible to anyone else. However, I don't recall that you've ever asked how I came to my conclusions so you have no way to know how I came to the designations of identity.

Personally I have not found Father's Presence elusive
>>for communion anytime or anyplace. If I spend more than a few hours skywatching in a suitable environment I often have one or more 'close encounters' of the visual kind...this is usually just observed without the
>>need on my part to designate who is 'good or bad' like the judgement of Santa Claus or something.

Ah ha...... there it is. That's the piece I've been waiting for. Well then, it follows that as you can't believe your own eyes - then all of your designations of experiential items are equally unbelievable.

>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Right now we have had a struggle to find words that mean enough in common for both of us to try to understand each other with mortal 'peabrains'
>>>>>>>>>>...do you suppose it will be easier or harder
>>>>>>>>>>to communicate when you 'repersonalize' and are in a completely different modality of consciousness.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Why don't you survey the other participants in the adventure and seek to discover if they have the same problem you've encountered with my use of language. If so, perhaps you have a point. If not, then it will be easier to identify who owns the problem.
>>>>
>>>>I reject your designation of 'mortal peabrains'. I do not view my fellows in such a poor light.
>>>>
>>>>^^^^^ It does not seem an inaccurate view to recognize that my own human consciousness is circumscribed and attenuated by the vestiges
>>of the animal nature (my version of 'the mark of the beast'). I hope one day to be more than what I seem to be today...the hope of something acutely aware of it's humble present status.

Sounds like you need to work on self-esteem a little:)

>>>>
>>>>My interactions with 'celestial' personalities
>>>>>>>>>>have always been loving and positive...that is all I know based on my own experience.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>How is the love expressed? Do you believe that attachments to an unwitting party constitutes love? Do you believe that manipulation via that attachment to be holy or heavenly? What is it the attacher receives in return for his effort? What are his intents - what does he do with the information gleaned from the intrusions. Once these questions have been answer AND proof placed on the table - I might be able to discern whether or not there was any love in the violation of a human beings free will.
>>>>
>>>>^^^^^There is no manipulation of an 'unwitting party' going on here. Information is freely given and received with no more intrusiveness than the ringing of a telephone with either person maintaining the right to say
>>'hey...I'm busy now I'll call you back later'.

That's my point. Is the need to feel special so great that one should walk into Hell with eyes wide open?

>>>>>>>>***** Your interactions with Old One are telepathic mindlinks...yes?
>>>>>>
>>>>Yes
>>>>^^^^^ So how is this different except in that your trust of him seems
>>to be somewhat limited?
>>>>

There are big time differences. Mine puts proof on the table. Tangible provings. Money talks and BS walks. He puts the currency of exchange where it can be touched, seen and kicked.

>>>>>>My peace is maintained and nothing occurs without my permission. Jackie was the one who appeared to be undergoing significant distress from the 'attachment' you seemed to believe would be aimed in my direction...
>>>>>>that did appear to me to be an unwelcome attack on her from an 'energy' she
>>>>>>couldn't handle without your help.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Incorrect reading. This came from a different quarter and had nothing to do with you. However, perhaps you might have learned how unpleasant these holy and elevated beings can get when they don't get what they want. I told Jackie in the beginning that being with me wouldn't be easy. Because of her close association with me, she is frequently targeted. In most instances, she has developed the ability to handle it herself. This was an exception.
>>>>You might also note, they don't want to play with me and instead chose to prey upon another's mortality.
>>>>
>>>>^^^^^This would seem to be an unfair 'set-up'...
>>>>
Nothing unfair about it. Jackie was well advised and, as she said, has found the effort 'worth it'.

>>>>^^^^^ All of this appears as subjective to me as my situation seems to be to you. I saw no 'beef' of Old One materializing every time he wants to talk to you guys. Frankly from your descriptions of him it might be disconcerting to the other folks around your home if that did occur.

He has no need to materialize to talk. However, if you saw no 'beef' there were seven other people who did when HE DID choose to materialize. If your invisible voices can do the same - go thee and do it. There comes a time to put up or shut up. IF your 'beliefs' are, in fact, 'realities', it follows you should be able to convince yours to make an appointment (with me) and do some showing off.

>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>ensures safety and nothing else can or ever will. That is my understanding of Father's law. (love always works)
>>>>
>>>>Really? I guess Adolph Hitler did a whole lot of loving then. Pardon the sarcasim here but Pollyana wasn't any more real than the tooth fairy.
>>>>

>>>>>>>>***** Not unless Dennis forgot for a moment who it is he works for and that what He says goes. The Creator of the universe and His designated consort and associates are rarely referred to as 'uninvited guests'. They
>>>>>>do have the right to be whereever and with whomever they wish
>>>>>>...nevertheless permission is duly asked for and always granted.
>>>>>>(even if Immanuel must put Dennis in a headlock to get it :-)
>>>>
>>>>Whoa....I think you just left the planet. You assume that Michael of Nebadon was attached to you? Not a chance in Heaven or Hell. Furthermore, he is as mortal as you and incurs the limitations of mortality in the bargain. Believe as you will, but we know exactly and precisely where he is
>>>>at all times. I have two angelic guardians on him and two nordics 24 hours a day without exception. Intruding upon a person's mortality is so far beyond the boundaries of any acceptable behavior that it carries with it a death penalty. Not even with the apostles did Jesus perform such an endeavor. However, for the sake of arguement, lets say you're right in your assumptions. Prove it!
>>
>>>>Yes...I did leave the planet. No he isn't a little boy living in Los Angeles...at least not exclusively...We will both have the opportunity for clarification on this...maybe sooner rather than later...but it really is
>>not entirely understandable in human terms or timeframes.
>>

Those who can't prove call it a 'mystery'. There are few things beyond the comprehension of man at his current state of development.

>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>+++ Excuse me Dear One...wasn't intolerance and the extermination of that which was inimicable to the established order the initial problem
>>>>>>>>>>that has made it necessary for you to feel you have to fight for survival in the first place... >>doesn't this sort of behavior perpetuate it?
>>>>
>>>>Let's see. Fighting for my life, perpetuates the conflict with those who would kill me. The obvious solution is to let 'them' (whoever they might be) succeed. Do you see a flaw in this reasoning?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I hate to tell you this Steffani but war does solve problems and resolve conflicts. However, where The Earth is concerned, those uninvited guests remaining here do so in the knowledge that tolerance is one of my practices - until I have a reason not to be tolerant. The list of those reasons is now as long as my leg. The right to exercise soverignity over this world is mine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>***** For whom does war solve problems and resolve conflicts without causing more of the same only differing in forms?
>>>>
>>>>Well, let's see. The American Revolution got the British outta here and today, half the island would give their eye teeth to immigrate here.
>>>>Hitler was quashed by virture of war. Most would agree that was a good thing. I could go on for some time but I think you get the idea.
>>>>
>>>>To avoid conflict and war, in your paradigm, better that Adolf should have succeed in his genocidal plans. The example is as extreme as your exemplar.
>>>>
>>>>I'll console myself with the fact the list won't be over a yard long yet for a while ...sorry!
>>>>
>>>>Get a history book Steff - the list is way past a yard.
>>>>
>>>>His story will be corrected...
>>
His story HAS been corrected although I've not connected the dots for the reader. This soul will not survive his mortality.

>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>***** You have the option of joining me in making the same decision for a One Power universe NOW...
>>>>
>>>>I made that decision long ago. One Creator Son as absolute dictator and ruler. I'll settle for nothing less. I made my stand long before you were a glimmer in Father's eye.
>>
>>>>^^^^^Halleluia! At last one thing on which we are in complete agreement.

See what happens when you quit sitting on your head:):):)

>>>>
>>>>>>Out of time in reality Father has already won.
>>>>
>>>>The out of time reality spawns from the in time reality. They are not separate.
>>>>^^^^^This is true...it doesn't always look that way.
>>

Geez, two agreements in one post - am I on a roll or what!

Cal
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07/12/00 at 8:11 am 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Mark...
Occam's razor tells me that Beings with 'brilliant and 'original' minds
did not "rebel" against the universe government without what they must have considered very good cause...there was too much to lose.
I used to assume this situation arose from a form of 'cosmic insanity' before not after...or possibly simply a serious misunderstanding...
maybe a jest taken seriously by the humorless who were in a position to be dangerous...
a few possibilities for an event that has effected a lot of people including ourselves.
Blaming and scapegoating has never seemed a viable solution to problem solving for me.
Thus far Cal has never backed down from being without question for Father and Michael's sovereignty...
this is the bottom line for me...
everything else is negotiable.
Is he 'lying'?
I think not.
I do 'believe' every action this person has ever taken has been in accordance with the highest light and wisdom he has available
...which is considerable.
He has done that which he thought is 'right'.
I do not know what more Father could ask of anyone...
I would be willing to stand before the Ancients of Days to vouch for his integrity in this regard (and may be called upon to do so).

Do I agree with his decisions? Absolutely not! I am not yet in a position to truly understand the reasons for them...my strength is based in a willingness to know the whole truth and nothing less...
and it is the gift of my Creator Father.

I'm no 'groupie'...we disagree profoundly on too many very basic issues.
It is nevertheless true that "Cal is a very sweet person" as Cinde5 says.

Only Love. Steffani.

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07/12/00 at 9:37 am 

Steffani Murray:

Only Love.
Steffani
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 10:03 am 

Steffani Murray:

Good Grief Cal (to quote Snoopy)
Haven't you ever read anything besides the Book of Revelation and the
uglier stuff in the Urantia book...there is One Mind to share and its contents won't contaminate the angelic neuronic cell of it that is yours.
How on Urth will you ever assuage the endless curious questions of your
'groupies'? See...I told you that you'd get groupies way back when .
Can I score an occasional point for 'being right'?
(you know I won't remember the number!:-)

Steff

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 10:55 am 

Caligastia:

>>>>What you describe here is an abduction.
>>>><<<<<<< Not hardly...what happened was caused by a decision ...an act of will on my part. The 'lower dimensional' construct of the spaceship was a helpful means of facilitating my own decision to return to 'this 3D world'

You twist words with the skill of a bureaucrat.

>>>>
>>>> Hey now! One moment you portray me as arrogant then you say I need to work on 'self esteem' Come on...you know me well enough by now to have found that I'm neither arrogant nor lacking in a healthy sense of self esteem ;-)
>>>>>>>>

ok - arrogant peabrain:)

>>>>That's my point. Is the need to feel special so great that one should walk into Hell with eyes wide open?
>>
>>>><<<<<<< How 'special' is it to accept a job one finds they are qualified
>>and then trained to do? A valid sense of accomplishment for having worked hard perhaps...augmented by a humble realization that God's grace co-
>>ordinated everything that has been offered.
>>Finding 'myself' in Heaven with no 'body' as a spherical blob of energy
>>with 360 degree vision did seem sort of happenstance at the point at which
>>it occurred initially.

I suppose it depends on who you're working for (in actuality). In a place where there are good guys and bad guys something more than a belief of good association would seem desireable.
>>>>

>>>><<<<<<< For obvious reasons the 'tangible' fails to impress me as much as it may convince others...it is a matter of values.

Or a matter of delusion. You fail to accept or recognize that it is all ONE REALITY.

>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>My peace is maintained and nothing occurs without my permission.

Really? How would you know?

>>
>>>><<<<<<< You have Mac's #? Call him up and make an appointment convenient for both of you...just ask what you want to know...he can tell you whatever information you think you need if there isn't a good reason not to for now. There is much I must choose not to know at this time so that

Again, asked to put up or shut up your reply is - call someone else. Father, Mac - whatever.

>>I can fulfill an assignment that I accepted. He isn't given to 'showing off'...as far as I know when he drops in to talk to truckers at a roadside inn he looks like one of them...I find the light in motion look far more comforting...it's not difficult to see the 'personality' in there.

You are not the only one who has some serious delusions about my grandfather. His time is spent tending to the needs of his own world and his own people. As you've demanded no proof from your would be Machieventa, you've received none. I tell you with as much sincerity I can muster, Mac isn't your contact.

You commented that you felt Old One attempted to intimate you. I corrected the comment and said, not you - the one on the other end of the leash. And he did. Mac would never have felt a twinge of intimidation. You describe Mac as a fellow of good humor - not my grandfather. Serious, dower and contemplative I could buy - but good humor - nope. Running a joke before a group of Melchezidek's has got to be playing the roughest house in creation. These are not 'bubbly' people and Mac is the least so.

>>>>Those who can't prove call it a 'mystery'. There are few things beyond the comprehension of man at his current state of development.
>>>><<<<<<< Really? Your 'faith' is great!
>>>>>>>>>>

I know my people.

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 11:00 am 

Caligastia:

Cal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 12:22 pm 

Steffani Murray:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 12:32 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Steff

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 12:47 pm 

Caligastia:

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 5:45 pm 

Steffani Murray:

>>Ahem, who do you think told these individuals what they knew:)
>>OK.I get your point...
>>As for the other books, I have no need of a book to see a naked woman.
>>That was a 'rib' like when our teenage sons tell us they buy Playboy to
"read the articles"
Yeah Right! People as 'things' probably isn't such a great idea anyway...
Steff.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 5:53 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Thank You David...
My mind is at peace as this is my hope for all...
Smart doesn't really matter much but I do try to use the mind
that the Infinite Spirit gave me to good purpose...
Only Love.
Steffani.

David Price (07/12/00 at 12:49 pm) wrote:

>>
>>Steff - I recived my Bible I had has a child, in it was a verse from
>>Isaiah, i was just picking Cal's brain to see what he thought of the
>>wrighting. He of course said he had not read it. I am more than curious,
>>and Cal speaks truth in a way i can understand. Some question's i ask
>>are logical and good, some not. I don't know alot of things, however
>>i am willing to listen and learn. Your a smart lady Steff, may you find
>>Peace of Mind.
>>
>> Dave.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/12/00 at 6:08 pm 

Steffani Murray:

David...It amazes me to hear you describe yourself as 'slow of thought'...
to me you seemed extraordinarily intelligent, competent, and as well prepared and equipped for the tasks at hand as any truly consummate professional. Please give yourself due credit for that which you do well.
I can easily see you standing forth uttering the words of the Prophet Isaiah...as ready as you seemed for just about anything!
Only Love.
Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/15/00 at 5:38 am 

Steffani Murray:

Only Love.
Steffani.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/15/00 at 1:03 pm 

Caligastia:

Cal

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/15/00 at 6:43 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Gee Cal...you've been so darn agreeable lately that I plumb forgot for a moment that when someone says..."time?" I am supposed to try to teach him or her how to build a clock.

I'd better think up a joke quick as a distraction...

A Paradise Avonal Son arrives on Urantia for a magisterial mission...
the 12 Melchizedek planetary receivers pack him off to 'the Comedy Zone'
for an evening of reversion.
YOU are on stage and it is your job to get them to laugh.
How will you do it?
Tell them 'Earth Truth' according to Rush Limbaugh...>:-)

Wanna know how to get God the Father to laugh?
...Tell Him your plans.

O.K. enough is enough...
You wrote:
His will has been done.
You would have to go 'out of time' to see that...

The ultimate inevitability of Father's will being done is one of the most
joyous certainties in any universe...in Him we can always trust.

Only Love...Light...Order...
Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/15/00 at 7:54 pm 

Steffani Murray:

That's synonymous Dear One...
Or perhaps Sin Ominous.
Definitely your take on the subject...

I've heard it said that "he who laughs last laughs best."
It is my sincere hope we will all laugh together...
with and not at each other.
As the Moody Blues song sez...
"when the final line is over
and it's certain that the curtains gonna fall...
we'll hide inside
Your sweet, sweet Love forevermore"

Only Love.
Steffani.

Cal (07/15/00 at 7:14 pm) wrote:

>>
>>>>A Paradise Avonal Son arrives on Urantia for a magisterial mission...
>>>>the 12 Melchizedek planetary receivers pack him off to 'the Comedy Zone'
>>>>for an evening of reversion.
>>>>YOU are on stage and it is your job to get them to laugh.
>>>>How will you do it?
>>>>Tell them 'Earth Truth' according to Rush Limbaugh...>:-)
>>>>
>>>>Wanna know how to get God the Father to laugh?
>>>>...Tell Him your plans.
>>>>
>>
>>The words Melchezidek and laughter are oxymoronic while constipated would be synomonous.
>>
>>
>>Cal

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/16/00 at 4:46 pm 

Certum est quia impossibile est...

Semper paratis.

Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/17/00 at 9:51 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/18/00 at 8:33 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Well Rob...
Planetary Prince is a higher office than the politics of 'this world' acknowledge. All would benefit from a responsible, competant and fully empowered person of uncompromising integrity at the helm of government.
The plan can include offloading B.S. to re-establish Truth.

Only Love.
Steffani

Rob Smith (07/18/00 at 7:54 am) wrote:

>>Yesterday I was listening to the Sean Hannity show on our local talk-radio station, WABC-AM. The subject was Hillary Clinton's anti-Semitic remarks and how they might affect her Senate run from the great Empire State. A caller made the following declaration with a heavy New York accent...
>>
>>"I'd ratha vote fuh THUH DEVIL befaw I'd vote fuh Hillary Clinton!"
>>
>>Hmmm...'Senator Caligastia'. How duh youse like dem apples?
>>
>>Now that I think about it, he'd be preferable to either of these two clowns we've got running right now. 

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/19/00 at 4:05 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Steffani ;-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/19/00 at 5:04 pm 

Caligastia:

Cal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/19/00 at 9:07 pm 

Steffani Murray:

You know Greg...
This guy was one of my heroes as a late adolescent I kept a poster of his
charmingly homely mug on my my wall for several years. It's still in the same frame under another poster titled 'the Lord answers Job out of the
Whirlwind'...on my dining room wall. Never would have suspected in my wildest dreams the connection between that dude and 'the Lord thy God'of the Old Testament. I find synchronistic humor in the strangest things.

I have a co-worker Rebecca (who can be a bit of a nemesis) who tells a funny story about being persecuted by the Nunzies for being a 'Lutheran' attending a Catholic school. She got her revenge on graduation day by plastering those 'theses' on the Mother Superior's office door (hehehe!)

Only Love.
Steffani.

Greg (07/19/00 at 8:08 pm) wrote:

>>Recently I have been studying some spiritual stuff and wound up
>>studying Martin Luther instead.
>>
>>
>>I thought I would share some good sites for Martin Luther history.
>>
>>http://www.LUTHER.de/e/
>>
>>If (like me) you have never heard of the 95 Theses, I recommend reading it.
>>"The 95 Theses and their Results"
>>http://www.LUTHER.de/e/anschlag.html
>>
>>---
>>
>>A great quote: (assuming he said it)- Did HE???
>>
>> "If I knew that tomorrow was the end of the world, I would plant an apple tree today!"
>>
>>---
>>
>>Music:"A MIGHTY FORTRESS IS OUR GOD"
>>
>>http://cartex.com/hymnal/amightyf.shtml
>>
>>Other hymns he wrote:
>>
>>http://hymnuts.luthersem.edu/hcompan/writers/luther.ht

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/20/00 at 11:01 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Only Love.
Steffani.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/22/00 at 5:22 am

Steffani Murray:

Only Love.
Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/23/00 at 6:07 am 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Jon...

I love C.S. Lewis books. The children's series 'the Chronicles of Narnia'
tells much about dimensional shifts and the truth about 'death' as such.
I very much enjoyed his 'space triology' including the potential 'new age' perils of eastern spiritual teachers or angelic contact for mortals.
But my all time favorite of his is the one called 'the Great Divorce'.
It tells the real truth about 'heaven and hell'.
Happy reading!

Only Love.
Steffani.

JoN (07/23/00 at 12:10 am) wrote:

>>What do you guys think of C.S. Lewis? Books of his like The Abolition of Man, Mere Christianity, and The Screwtape Letters. I think that he makes a lot of sense and makes a good case for the Bible and Christianity. On the other hand, I see truth in the Conversations with God series by Neale Donald Walsch. I also think the Seth Material of Jane Roberts is interesting.
>>
>>Thoughts? Experiences with these books/authors? I'm in my early 20's and intensely searching for truth.
>>
>>-JoN
>>
>>e-mail me if you like...

Steffani Murray
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/23/00 at 5:11 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hey Dave...
Maybe the only 'wrong thoughts' are the ones you've let someone else
think for you?

Only Love.
Steffani

David Price (07/23/00 at 4:07 pm) wrote:

>>Cal (07/23/00 at 1:07 pm) wrote:
>>
>>>>Dave:
>>>> For the record, the Urantia Foundation are not my enemies. They are deluded and misguided children. Their 'fall' comes not from my own actions
>>
>> O.K. - Dave
>>
>>but from their unwillingness to question their accepted beliefs. As with the Greeks, (Olympians v Titans), the reality will always supercede and establish itself over a mythology by virture of its reality. If the belief is not based an centered in a reality - the belief falls by the wayside.
>>>>
>>>>People believed the world was flat 'inspite of the fact', that Aristotle
>>>>proved otherwise in Alexandria. Utlimately, the belief gave way to the reality. It has always been so and will always be that the truth of a thing will establish dominance over superstitition and delusion.
>>>>
>>>>Cal
>>>>
>>>> O.K. - Dave. Truth of a thing will establish dominance
>> over superstition and delusion.
>>
>> I to have held wrong thought's - I just
>> wish the principles of the Foundation
>> would seek you out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> David Price
>>>>
>>

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/24/00 at 7:23 am 

Steffani Murray:

Well Dave...I sure think my life has been upgraded by the priviledge of having met you. As everyone on this list has probably deduced Cal and I
don't always agree on everything but I cocur he is 100% correct in his statement that (not an exact quote maybe?) "truth will be dominant over delusion and superstition". Love of the brethren is the test of service
and the Foundation has persecuted even sincere UB believers in its' hyperzealousness to maintain control over the dessemination of the material.

Only Love.
Steffani.

David Price (07/23/00 at 9:08 pm) wrote:

>>Steffani Murray (07/23/00 at 5:11 pm) wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>Hey Dave...
>>>>Maybe the only 'wrong thoughts' are the ones you've let someone else
>>>>think for you?
>>>>
>>>>Only Love.
>>>>Steffani
>>
>> Well Steff - My wrong thought's about the Urantia Foundation
>>was that i was tooo critical of them. Now i know that truth will replace
>>that which is untrue. I stepped in some doggie do on this one, however
>>i was corrected and glad for it. I have no bussiness telling others were
>>to get off. My bussiness should be to learn and apply truth in MY THINKING.
>>
>> I am my own person and alot of times, i am called on my errors.
>>As it should be. Sooner or later i come around and life is better for me.
>>
>>>> Dave.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/24/00 at 6:59 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Inversely then would the amount of time one spends getting shitfaced
relate to the amount of time one spent brown nosing plus how deeply s/he got into it?

Steffani

Cal (07/24/00 at 6:27 pm) wrote:

>>If you keep your nose stuck to someone else's backside, the probabilities of having a poor substance adorning your face goes up in direct proportion to the length of time plus the depth of the endeavor. In mathematical terms this would equate to sht=face+depth.
>>
>>Cal

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/24/00 at 7:34 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Caligastian Accelerated Ascendancy:(then)
We don't have to put up with this Shit happening anymore.

Hinduism:
This Shit has happened before.

Krishna Consciousness:
Shit happens hare hare rama rama...

Taoism:
Shit happens.

Judaism:
Why does this Shit always happen to us?

Confucianism:
Confucius says:
"Shit happens."

Buddhism:
If Shit happens it isn't really shit.

Zen:
What is the sound of one Shit happening?

Islam:
If Shit happens it is the will of Allah.

Catholicism:
Shit happens because you are bad.

Protestantism:
Let this Shit happen to Someone else.

Calvinism:
Shit happens because you don't work hard enough.

Mormon:
This Shit is going to happen again.

Seventh Day Adventist:
No Shit happens on Saturday.

Christian Science:
Shit only happens in your mind.

Rastafarianism:
This happens to be good shit...let's smoke it.

Moonies:
Only happy Shit is allowed to happen.

Stoicism:
This Shit must be good for me.

Hedonism:
There isn't anything like a good Shit happening!

Existentialism:
What is this Shit that happens, anyway?

Atheism:
There is no Shit to happen.

Caligastian Accelerated Ascendency: (now)
Why on Earth are we still putting up with this Shit happening?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

7/24/00 at 7:45 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Actually the name of Ghengis Khan was remembered and brought up by a man at an ACIM meeting I attended last night as an example of one of those guys in history equally as worthy of God's unconditional love as anyone else.
...just as I was hoping for a miracle to forget for a moment.
There are no coincidences in forgiveness classes.

only love...
Steffani

Cal (07/24/00 at 2:20 am) wrote:

>>Thru history, a number of notable characters who have had lasting signficance have 'disappeared' without a place of remembrance marking their graves. Arthur of Camelot, Genghis Khan and Moses are three good examples.
>>
>>Given their exploits, a marker of some kind would have been in order.
>>Except.... there is no corpse to so honor.
>>
>>
>>MOSES' work for Israel was almost done; yet one more act remained for the aged leader to perform, ere he should go to his
>>long rest. "Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites," was the divine command; "afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy
>>people." Numbers 31:2.
>>
>>From a web writing.... 'gathered unto thy people'.
>>
>>Clearly, not Israel or there would have been a place of remembrance.
>>Who then is Moses' people? Those people in 4d - the angels that so assisted his journey. AND, he'll be back.
>>
>>Cal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/25/00 at 7:01 am 

Steffani Murray:

Hi David...apparently there were prior issues relating to the days when Joseph's jealous brothers sold him into slavery in Egypt but that 'Divine command'relating to the Midianites might have been a tough one for Moses. When he fled from Egypt as an outcast he had an opportunity to stand up to some shepherds who were being ungentlemanly to 7 young ladies who were caring for their father's flock of sheep. In appreciation Reuel the priest of Midian took Moses in to live with him and gave him one of those duaghters as his wife. I suppose that vengeful old testament God had his share of issues... but even a human like Moses who had uncommon dedication to following Yahweh would probably have a problem with being asked to bite
(smite) a hand that had cared for him in his own time of need believing it had also been God's hand of service upon his life to spare it through that family at the time.

Only Love.
Steffani.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/25/00 at 6:13 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Well Dave...That's O.K. I tend to see things differently from most everyone
and maybe I am a bit of a stubborn little jackass myself. Moses was the adopted Prince of Egypt from infancy. I think you have him confused with Joseph who I only briefly touched on in my post. If you don't believe me you could go see the movie of that name. If it's in a cartoon full length epic it must be true! ;-)
Anyway I am happy to worship only God the Father who doesn't play chosen people games. It is your choice to believe whom and whatever you wish.
I still think the ability to think for oneself is an important quality that serves anyone well who uses it.

Only Love.
Steffani.

David Price (07/25/00 at 3:53 pm) wrote:

>>
>>Steff, I do not take council, with your interpretation of events.
>>
>> Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the council
>>of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor,
>>and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
>>
>> Balaam was hired by Balak, King of Moab to curse the Israelites.
>>
>> Balaam seems to have caused the Israelites to sin in Numbers 25
>>when they took Moabite and Midianite woman - Num 31.16 and worshiped
>>the Moabite and or Midianite God's.
>>
>> Seem's the Midianites were merchants and the liberal left of their
>>day and were by association causing great harm to the Israelites.
>>
>> When Moses issued the Divine orders to his troops (upon reciving them
>>from the Planetary Prince) Moses found out that the Midianites were
>>not wiped out (killed) to the last man, woman and child.
>>
>> Some would have trouble with this however, I belive the Prince has
>>indicated in events like this not, a soul is lost. And if i am wrong
>>i am sure the Plantery Prince will correct me.
>>
>> Also there is some text to the fact that Moses was sold to a Midianite
>>in his younger years when his brothers put him in a pit.
>>
>> David Price

Steffani Murray

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/26/00 at 10:04 am 

Steffani Murray:

Well Dave...As cosmic coincidence would have it (and it always does)
I found the following statement in the UB last night:

"they recounted the days of Gideon, when the Midianites poured into this region to overrun the land"...

so I must concede that you were quite right that there were ongoing problems later for the Isrealites due to noncompliance...

The context for the quote is the history lesson Jesus parents were giving him on their journey to Jerusalem for his first passover there as a young man in his 13th year when the family reached the place where the Jabbok ran into the Jordan River.

My IUA friend Scott had come over for our weekly book study and wanted to read the account of how Jesus dealt with the money changers and sacrificial animal sellers in the Temple as one of the events leading to the crucifixion. I wondered about the effect of this prior negative experience as a factor influencing this later life decision so we read
about this pilgrimage he took with Mary and Joseph to help us understand
if what happened so much later had been based on his experiences on this earlier trip.

I appreciate you doing the bibical research. I set the bible aside after the aversive experiences I encountered with Christian fundamentalism as a young woman. This is where I learned just how dear the ability to think for oneself should be held as a value.
I wasn't saying that you don't think for yourself Dave.
I was merely encouraging you strongly to be ever unwilling to sacrifice
this precious necessary precursor to true freedom. Be advised that although my head may be hard my heart certainly isn't. Integrating both qualities in decision making is not always easy to do.

Only Love.
Steffani.

David Price (07/26/00 at 6:26 am) wrote:

>>O.k. Steff here goes -
>>
>>Moses found sanctuary with Jethro the priest of Midian, when he fled Pharaoh. Ex.2:15-20
>>
>>Moses married Zipporath, Jethro's daughter. Ex.2:21
>>
>>Jethro heard of what God had done, in liberation of the Hebrews, and went
>>to meet Moses in the desert, as a friend. Ex.18:1-16.
>>
>>Moses greeted Jethro as a friend Ex.18:17
>>
>>And Jethro said blessed be th Lord WHO HATH DELIVERD YOU OUT OF THE HAND
>>OF THE EGYPTIANS. Ex.18:10-11
>>
>>Balak, King of Moab, saw what the Iseraelites did to the Amorites (the
>>Amorites were destroyed for refusing passage to the Isralites) and was
>>distressed, so he went to seek council with the elders of Midian, hopeing
>>for an alliance. Num.22:2-6
>>
>>And the elders of Moab and the elders of Midian departed with the rewards
>>of divination in their hand, and came unto Balaam, and spake words unto
>>him from Balak. Num.22:7
>>
>>Balaam (a prophet) recived word from God to neither curse the Israelites
>>nor go with Balak's representitives, because the Isralites were blessed.
>>Num 22:8-13
>>
>>The Lord told Moses - Num.25:1-5
>>
>>Phinehas takes a javelin in hand and thrust it threw a man of Isreal an a Midianite woman. The womans name was Cozbi the daughter of a prince of
>>Midian. Num.25:6-8
>>
>>And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, vex the Midianites, and smite them.
>>Num.25:16-17
>>
>>Also you say i don't think for myself and i say you have a hard head!
>> Would we not make contrasting book ends?
>>
>> Dave Price.
>>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/27/00 at 6:24 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Greg...Thanks for the 'saucer siting' links...these are fun reading too!
Your visiting spaced oddity...
Steffani

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/28/00 at 7:06 am 

Steffani Murray:

ONLY LOVE ( as in even your 'enemies')

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

7/28/00 at 5:44 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Hi Steven...I think it is even simpler than that!
Loving Him and each other because He made us...

Forgiving one another's imperfections until we are able to become perfect
according to His commandment...
Which must be possible because all things are with Him.

Only Love ;-)
Steffani.

steven (07/28/00 at 7:23 pm) wrote:

>> You know,it took me a while to finally figure this one out.I was stuck in the old-school,traditional,fundamentalist damnation and hell-fire way of thinking for most of my life,where WORSHIP was a key part of everday life.And then it finally came to me,Father doesn't want our worship(you know,prayer,singing,chanting,yoga,back-flips or the like),just our co-operation.That,to me,seems the best form of "worship".I'm not sure that's what this thread was all about,but it's my two cents regardless.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/28/00 at 6:41 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Gee Whiz Steven!... and Cal says no one can understand me.
(although the ESG and UBRON folks don't indicate a problem either)
Thank You.

Only Love. Steffani.

steven (07/28/00 at 7:57 pm) wrote:

>>
>>Steffani Murray (07/28/00 at 5:44 pm) wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>>Hi Steven...I think it is even simpler than that!
>>>>Loving Him and each other because He made us...
>> **...... yep
>>>>
>>>>Forgiving one another's imperfections until we are able to become perfect
>>>>according to His commandment...
>> **...... ie; cooperation
>>>>Which must be possible because all things are with Him.
>> **...... i'm right there with ya' girl........
>>>>
>>>>Only Love ;-)
>>>>Steffani.

>> **......steven.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/28/00 at 9:49 pm 

Steffani Murray:

Well Steven...while admittedly fun for awhile...if there is only one 'right' way rather than differing points of view that are very real
to those who have formed them on the basis of their own experiences...
it is inevitable to reach an impasse in any attempt for mutual understanding.
I regret this may be disappointing to a few of you who enjoyed our exchanges...but we have decided to relinquish the effort to have
meaningful dialogue because we merely drive each other crazy...
I just see things very differently than Cal... that is all.
It is each person's responsibility to fulfill his or her own assigned
role in Father's Plan according to their highest Light of understanding.
May only His Will be done...
That is one thing upon which total agreement is completely understood.

Only Love.
Steffani.

steven (07/28/00 at 9:46 pm) wrote:

>> You're welcome,although quite honestly,I found the banter between Cal and yourself to be quite entertaining,even enlightening.Watching a couple of sharp wits entangled in intellectually charged dialogue has always been a deeply rooted pleasure of mine,but then again,I still like watching re-runs of Full House too.There's just no accounting for taste.
>>
>> Ownwee Wub........Steven.
>>
>> (yeah,i'm a smart-ass)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

07/28/00 at 10:05 pm 

Steffani Murray:

David...While you are looking at the issue of your Prince having a 'bad side' has it occurred to you that 'good guys' have 'bad' sides so maybe
'bad guys' have 'good' sides too. Perhaps everyone thinks he is a 'good guy' and it is only those who disagree with him are 'bad'. Maybe there are only good or bad actions engaged in by 'just guys' who either
'get it' (yet) or don't that Father's Will is for us to live as Jesus
taught us to...which really is practical and possible although it has never actually been tried on this planet before.

Only Love (for all my brothers and sisters)
yes, even the ones who don't agree me...