Urantia Book People

 

The old saying that birds of a feather flock together is appropriate to this subject matter. The Urantia Book frequently attracts

those of a facist mindset. The ideals of American Liberty as espoused in our Constitution go out the window where these

people are concerned. Their 'book' defines Christianity and Judiac traditions as 'primitive religions' while, at the same time,

attempting to attach themselves to Christianity in order to gain some degree of credibility. However, once inside the ranks of the

cult mentality, Christianity and the words of the Apostles have no meaning because the Uranita Book knows better. This is

particularly evident when Biblical Verse contradicts their assertions.

The Urantia Foundation recently lost their English language copyrights to the book. They proposed, to a jury, that the papers

materialized out of thin air and can not, or will not, produce proof of authorship. This 'tooth fairy' rendition has many variants

floating around in the ranks of the cult. Yet, as these were sworn statements in a court, we must allow that some fear of a

perjury allegation will have prompted them to be a little more forthcoming than they usually are.

The Bible, unlike the Urantia Book, has a clear and identifiable trail to the Son of God. This is an imprimatur the Urantia Book

can't claim nor enjoy.

There are two primary Urantia book chat forums, Ubron.org and Ubook. org. Both employ the same facist tactics in that

American ideals of free expression, and dissent, are buried under facist practices. Furthermore, these people tend to be

as rabid dogs in heat, predatory and cannibalistic unless you are willing to bend knee before their miscreance. No better proof

is available than the words of a Urantia Book true believer and List Operator for the Ubron facit of the cult.

I quote:

Friends,

I have watched the discussions all day long, and frankly, I am tired and sad about it all. Back and forth, back and forth. No

solution.

Why is there never a solution? Because The Ubook doesn't have any and there are damned few open minds available for true

discussion or debate.

I have tried as List Op to do my best, to go the extra mile, to try to keep this list in line with the Golden Rule and love. It seems

to have been for naught today. All there has been today is bickering and more bickering. This is why people leave this list and

never come back.

This is why most internet discussion lists fail. They become dominated by one or more individuals who have a personal agenda

to push. They become places where people prefer to argue rather than stay focused on the mission of the list.

It saddens me that UBRON goes through this all the time. What am I to do? I surrender.

Today was a perfect example of what UBRON is NOT intended to be. This discussion has gotten off track, and I don't have

time, energy or the willingness to continue to do this. I find myself too stressed out by all of this. I have a life. UBRON is not

my life, it was a service project for me. I would like to participate here again as a member, and have no other rights as an

administrator. My personal balance is off, and it is partly because I am taking too much of my personal time to do this work.

Would anyone else like this job? Yet I am also challenged to continue here because I beleive I can do some good. But I do not

want this job any more. I do not want to be the one who makes the decisions about who can stay and who can go. I'm up

in the middle of the night writng this. I can't sleep because of this. That's not in my best interests. I send you all my prayers.

Pat McNelly

This letter speaks for itself and let the buyer beware.

 

This post demonstrates the 'scheme' to inflitrate main stream Christianity with the Urantia Book ultimately being

intended as a replacement for The Bible.

______________________________________________________________________

UB church members

Hi everybody! I hope I've got this web page system figured out---seems like I just took a "stupid"

pill! I am a reader of UB for about 25 years. Joined a small Presbyterian church 10 yrs ago, thinking

I would act as a missionary to the church! Lofty thinking, huh? I have been embraced by this

bunch of people as a leader,even preaching from time to time. I have talked a little about UB, but

did not get a positive response. They always LOVE the UB ideals, as long as they don't know

where they come from. Crazy, isn't it? Or is it?!? Now the "day of truth' is about to arrive---I am

teaching a class to Adult Sunday School for 2 weeks on the Urantia Book. It's time. . .otherwise

they will go on thinking that all these "radical" ideas have come from me. If there are people out

there who do work Inside the church, I would love to hear from you. Or if you simply have any

pointers for me, bring them on! I feel like I am out here floundering around all alone, but then you

and I BOTH know that I have a great Support Network in place! Blessings to all, Dianne

______________________________________________________________________

Does it constitute a conspiracy when Uranita Book types teach your kids from the Urantia Book instead of The Bible and then seek to hide their indoctrinations from the Parents? Read this Ubron post.

Hello Dianne, I wish you luck with your Sunday School lesson. I taught lessons for several years to

young teens based on the things I learned in the UB. But I never revealed the source, primarily

because I didn't think any of them were capable of taking the big blue book home to Mom and Dad

and saying "This is what we learned in class today!" Or maybe I just didn't want to get a call

saying "What are you teaching my kid?"

______________________________________________________________________

More Ubron Conspiracy?

It would appear there are some efforts to inflitrate 'Christian' groups. Fortunately, the group referenced in this post

isnt quite 'ready' to give up their Christianity to the likes of the Urantia Book. This was listed under the header

______________________________________________________________________

"Divine Plots"

For me the UB revelation is an augmentation of the vast spiritual and theological knowledge thus

far gleaned in my sojourn here. I never once brought up the UB in another discussion group I

belong to, 'The Academy' - a christian apologetic group. I have brought up concepts that the UB

may teach or support.....but some of these have also been held by other enlightened teachers

thru-out earths history. Those in the Academy group are not ready for a big blue book to fall into

their phariseeical laps! lol - this is the case for most of them,....there are however more liberal

minds who might find the FER interesting....if not peculiar. For me the UB enhances my own

spiritual and intellectual organs of perception....taking me to cosmic heights and integral depth of

the whole and infinity of Gods great and wondrous plan - the evolution of the soul and even God

Himself. Certainly it allows one liberty of thought while maintaining the constancy of spiritual

values and true meanings - these even being flexible and subject to the perfections of progressive

evolution. The UB opens one up to a vast universe and infinite potential of ones own existence.

______________________________________________________________________

UB church members

Dave, Hi! Neighbors indeed! I live in Cedar Rapids and to the best of my knowledge there are no UB

groups here. I would be a millionair if I had a dime for every person I have talked to about this

book! I have run into people who have heard of it...mostly New Age, and they tend to reject it

when they discover the writings on mysticism,superstitions, etc...not to mention it is a bit too

"Jesusy" for most. The "churched" people usually cannot buy into it mostly because of fear (my

opinion). And they think it's too New Age! Life is funny!

The Concerned Parent - The Bible is a Bad Thing

My daugther was doing the fundamental thing and I found that I could not use logic because the

Bible is not logical nor is faith. The only thing I found to work was to sow the seeds of doubt in

the Love of God as described in the Bible. I think the thing that finally took root was the concept

that the war mongering God of the old testament is not the same as the loving God of the new

and that if God can change throughout the Bible then it means that our concept of God can

evolve beyond the Bible.

______________________________________________________________________

Love and Light at Ubron

Unsubscribe

Brothers and sisters,

I too am weary, weary, weary to death of all this bickering. I have enough on my plate right now

dealing with serious personal family problems. It is no longer a joy, release or solence to come to

UBRON to visit when i read these posts. Afraid I've fallen off the Jump train too bruised and

dissillusioned being a new reader and rider and not understanding all this political stuff and the

intolerance and lack of love shown brother to brother. Please add my name to the unsubscribed

list also. Thanks but no thanks for this short ride with you.

______________________________________________________________________

Mad Dog Mentality at Ubron

Bickering

To All: I stopped posting on this bulletin board because of the constant bickering, namecalling, & all the egotistical rantings & ravings posted here. Where is the love & understanding that is

supposed to be manifested in a group such as this ? What good does it do to clamor for a personal point of view that is really just as valid as anyone else's ? Does anyone here have any claim to the real 'Truth' of any issue ? I have had my fill of this nonsense, & long for the sincere & humble seeking for genuine understanding to be the motive for posting here, not to prove a point. Philp

______________________________________________________________________

The UB Promoting Hitler Style Eugenics - Where Did Adolf Hide the Zyclon B?

QUOTE: Notwithstanding this obstacle, it seems that you ought to be able to agree upon the

biologic disfellowshiping of your more markedly unfit, defective, degenerate, and antisocial stocks.

(P.585)

QUOTE: Having failed to achieve race harmonization by the Adamic technique, you must now work

out your planetary problem of race improvement by other and largely human methods of

adaptation and control. (P.586)

770 The subnormal man should be kept under society's control; no more should be produced than

are required to administer the lower levels of industry, those tasks requiring intelligence above the

animal level but making such low-grade demands as to prove veritable slavery and bondage for the

higher types of mankind.

793 The survival of large numbers of defectives and degenerates is not because they have any

natural right thus to encumber twentieth-century civilization, but simply because the society of

the age, the mores, thus decrees.

803 … poverty and dependence can never be eliminated if the defective and degenerate stocks

are freely supported and permitted to reproduce without restraint.

880 Unrestrained multiplication of inferiors, with decreasing reproduction of superiors, is unfailingly

suicidal of cultural civilization.

920 the real jeopardy of the human species is to be found in the unrestrained multiplication of the

inferior and degenerate strains of the various civilized peoples…

1088 false sentiment… has led to the unwise perpetuation of racially degenerate stocks which

have tremendously retarded the progress of civilization.

1219 Civilization is in danger when youth neglect to interest themselves in ethics, sociology,

eugenics, philosophy, the fine arts, religion, and cosmology.

______________________________________________________________________

A Urantia Book Defective Assumes He isn't in the 'exterminator's class'

Keeping in mind the concept that "the Most Highs rule in the

kingdoms of men", I often wonder why eugenics would have taken such

a poor turn during the last century. Attempts at implementation of

birth control in the name of eugenics left a tragic legacy in the

USA, while the disastrous effects of the Holocaust will not fade

from memory for generations. Hope may be found in the development

of genetic engineering. Having said that, I am reminded of

Huxley's "Brave New World", and wonder how prescient his vision

was. Have we faced the future, survived "1984", and driven headlong

into our own Brave New World?

Chick's quotes included this one:

" The survival of large numbers of defectives and degenerates is not

because they have any natural right thus to encumber twentieth-

century civilization, but simply because the society of the age,

the mores, thus decrees."

Most of us will not argue that there are defectives and degenerates

abounding, but rather than implement a program to change that, we

must be guided by the higher truth to modify the mores of the

society we live in.

It looks like things have been slow for the Ubron Facists since the Fall of the Third Reich!

______________________________________________________________________

Qualifying as a Ubron Facist

Ubron wants you to join their forum. When you first login, they give you a big 'howdy - glad to see ya'. What they don't tell you is that membership in their little group requires that you check your principles at the door. The ASSUME and PRESUME to psychoanalyize you and a defective or emotionally disturbed when you don't agree with them OR if you react to their

presumptions of offering 'help' when it is neither needed or asked for.

______________________________________________________________________

Working With Members

I've gone over the archives of Dennis X's posts twice now, and unless someone forced a

sanitization of the archives so that "widdle- bitty new members won't be shocked and pee their

panties", as "folks" have called for in the past, I must be missing the awful messages that he

wrote so as to be crucified from the list.

Here's an example of the twisted "one way" logic that is used here by those who are self-justified

armchair psychobabble artists, ones who would claim to sum up a person upon reading a few

emails. This kind of stabbing, especially in front of a whole community, would be enough to make

almost anyone crack and start to rant (I know, some of the same ones have done it to me):

Dear Steve, Dennis, and all, I appreciate your joining in Steve, to help Dennis identify what's

bothering him.

Like you Steve, I see clear signs of tremendous unresolved pain in Dennis, very likely the natural

result of one of more of those tragic circumstances he has so many statistics on.

That he's expressing inner pain, as anger, is sadly frequent in wounded males of our world who've

not been supported to identify, and much less likely to have been trained in, the appropriate

expression of softer emotions, WHICH WE ALL HAVE.

The *more frequently denied to males* feeling of our universally bestowed capacity TO FEEL,

seems primarily defined as the expressions of vulnerability, dependency and powerlessness.

Basically, the most painful part of the human condition experienced by ALL of us as infants and

children.

Dennis, if you're reading, I hope that you'll consider these possibilities as you assess where your

anger is coming from. All those accumulated studies and statistics you've amassed could be used

by you as road signs of what to look for, if you're inclined to undertake personal healing. I hope

you will accept the fullness of your experience as an equally-sponsored member of God's family on

earth. Meaning, remember that you have equal rights of Being.

Goodnight Love,

To say these kinds of things about someone, as if you have some special license from God is

unbelievable...and equally worth getting booted, at least compared to what Dennis's succinct

attempt to convey a very honest ideal that was in his heart.....all you liberal FAUX-experts are so

incredulous in your self-riteousness. Subjectivity is your God. Go look for the really hidden anger in

your own hearts.

Cheers, Chris B

______________________________________________________________________

Spreading the not so "Divine Plot"

ADOPT A TRANSLATION

Hello Siblings,

If Urantia Book readers feel the need to serve in the dissemination of the teachings in ways other

than living it, there is an ongoing project that could use your support. The project is translating

the Urantia Book into the major languages of today.

So far, there are Spanish, French, Russian, Finnish, Korean and Dutch editions already published.

Portuguese and German translations are soon to be complete. Arabic, Farsi, Mandarin Chinese,

Japanese, Italian, Malay-Indonesian, Serbo-Croat, Polish, Swedish, Bulgarian, Greek, Danish,

Estonian, Norwegian and Lithuanian are all being worked on now.

In the plans, but not yet begun, are translations into Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Punjabi, Talugu, Tamil,

Marathi, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Wu, Javanese, Turkish, Tagalog, Thai, Min, Swahili, Ukrainian,

Kanada, Gujarati, Hausa, Malayalam, Hakka, Oriya, Burmese, Sudanese, Assamese, Pashtu,

Amharic, Sindhi, Yorba and Igbo.

The Urantia Foundation has made all the existing translations and with our help and that of an

extraordinarily talented multilingualist named Seppo Kanerva, who is leading the translation effort,

we can get the whole revelation into the hands, minds and souls of every Urantian someday. How

soon that is done depends on how much we want it to happen.

I feel the need to do everything we can to get the book into the native tongues of as many of the

major languages as possible. If you agree, there are many avenues of service open to help us

reach that goal.

______________________________________________________________________

Belief Is an Unnoticed Requirement

This extract from a post on Ubron well shows the hyprocrisy of the 'true believers'

Ubron doesn't notice prospective 'members' that they have to pass a litmus test of belief. Once in the door, this is imposed in

transit. It is no irony that this individual deems himself competent to judge others while, at the same time, the purportedly 'holy

papers' of the Urantia Book is stated, in Federal Court, to have materialized out of thin air. The tooth fairy was working

overtime.

I am against allowing people to come here and deny the teachings. They may participate for a

while to give an opportunity for dialogue but to have someone here endlessly putting down the

book is a waste of everyone's time. That goes for 'channeled material' and people who post things

that deny the teachings, like the incident Rob. 'Channeled material' cannot be debated

because the poster claims it is from a separate being, as a result they don't take responsibility for

it. That is against the spirit of the premise of this forum - Urantia Book Readers Online Forum. Not

Otherworld Beings Online Forum. If Rob's invisible friend wants contacts they can form their own

community without getting involved with UBRON.

______________________________________________________________________

One Ubronite's Thought On Who Should Be Disallowed Admittance to their Holy Sanctums

 

Working With Members

Sorry Steffani, it's the same old problem of why not let the Satanists in if we let the Christians in.

Just tell them all to stay out.

______________________________________________________________________

Introduction by Stephen Thorburn

I thought I might go ahead and give a brief introduction to the following list of excerpts from UBRON as it relates to my experiences there. I have been a long time (16 yrs+) reader of the Urantia Book. And I was at one time a strong proponent of its teachings, even hosting a study group at my home on a weekly basis. A couple of years back I first became aware of the ESG forum, and when I got there, I noticed some posts by Caligastia. I immediately thought that this was some "nut job" that thought he was Caligastia. And so I took it upon myself to expose him for what I had thought he was. This proved to be a very trying experience for me, which went on for some time. The logic and reason employed by him was remarkable and I found myself eating an ample portion of humble pie along the way. When once I had determined that he was in fact whom he said, I then took it upon myself to "slay the devil" as it were. You see I was still in the Urantia mindset and believing the "bad guy" image of him that the book taught. So I went on with every means I could muster to challenge and try him in that forum and on his forum as well. This was to no avail. He responded to me with reason and logic and a great deal of patience I might add. During this time, my behavior toward Caligastia and the Advens was not among the better moments of my journey. At one point in time, we came to an impasse. So I backed off for a short time and took that opportunity to read and then reread all the posts on his site. You see…I truly was earnestly seeking to get to the truth. This became a turning point in my journey. I kept in contact with him and the Advens and began to see things very differently with regard to Caligastia and the Urantia Book. I began to see that things were not as they seemed on the surface in the Urantia Book, that there was indeed a deception and a spin in the writing and that there were truths within it that were far less glorious than the holy words which wrapped them could cover. I went to UBRON and tried to give a prime example of this deceptive spin using the very first paragraph of the first paper as an exemplar. Now while my behavior there was not perfect, I think I did handle myself in a fairly civil manner. I certainly did not deserve the responses I was treated with by the folks over there. I expected that the points I raised would not be taken very well due to my own experiences with Caligastia, but I did not expect it would go as poorly as it did. The following are the threads that resulted from my initial posts on UBRON and what followed, including my expulsion from the list. And these posts are exemplar of the poor behaviors, which can result when "belief" and "delusion" overtake reason and logic.

Stephen Robert Thorburn

 

 

From: Carol H. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24199, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24175


My Fear/Chicken Little

Stephen writes: "If someone points out that your foundation has a crack in it, do you turn a blind eye and build your house upon it anyway?"

I would if her name was Chicken Little-----

One day Chicken Little was walking in the woods when -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell on her head "Oh my goodness!" said Chicken Little. "The sky is falling! I must go and tell the king."

On her way to the king's palace, Chicken Little met Henny Penny. Henny Penny said that she was going into the woods to hunt for worms. "Oh no, don't go!" said Chicken Little. "I was there and the sky fell on my head! Come with me to tell the king."

So Henny Penny joined Chicken Little and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Cocky Locky, who said, "I'm going to the woods to hunt for seeds."

"Oh no, don't go!" said Henny Penny. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king."

So Cocky Locky joined Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Goosey Poosey, who was planning to go to the woods to look for berries.

"Oh no, don't go!" said Cocky Locky. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king." So Goosey Poosey joined Cocky Locky, Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along as fast as they could.

Then who should appear on the path but sly old Foxy Woxy.

"Where are you going, my fine feathered friends?" asked Foxy Woxy. He spoke in a polite manner, so as not to frighten them.

"The sky is falling!" cried Chicken Little. "We must tell the king."

"I know a shortcut to the palace," said Foxy woxy sweetly. "Come and follow me."

But wicked Foxy Woxy did not lead the others to the palace. He led them right up to the entrance of his foxhole. Once they were inside, Foxy Woxy was planning to gobble them up!

Just as Chicken Little and the others were about to go into the fox's hole, they heard a strange sound and stopped. It was the king's hunting dogs, growling and howling. How Foxy Woxy ran, across the meadows and through the forests, with the hounds close behind. He ran until he was far, far away and never dared to come back again. After that day, Chicken Little always carried an umbrella with her when she walked in the woods. The umbrella was a present from the king. And if -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell, Chicken Little didn't mind a bit. In fact, she didn't notice it at all.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24205, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study


"Universal Father" = antichrist

PAPER 1 THE UNIVERSAL FATHER

"THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father- -one God in the place of many gods--enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.

The Prophet states that Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that "By the sons of God were the universes made". The Divine Counsleor states that the "Universal Father" "Created all THINGS AND BEINGS" (the universes). Does this mean that the "Universal Father" is only a "Son of God" and not God himself? Is this "Universal Father" one who is usurping the sovereignty of God? If the "prophet" is correct, then I would have to say that the "Universal Father" is an imposter to Father, and must be the antichrist.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24233, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24217


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Steffani,

Sorry...different quote in question. Try and find "By the sons of God were the universes made".

Cal has nothing to do with this.

Stephen

From: Larry G. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24180, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24162


Dogma

Yes, Rick...

The Urantia Book is designed to self-destruct like on Mission Impossible.

Once the instructions are understood, one does not spend a lifetime reading over the instructions, instead of lighting out to accomplish the mission.

In terms of time, however, 'getting' the instructions is an individual matter.

* * * * * * *

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24234, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24226

 

Steffani,

It clearly says that the "Universal Father" is the Creator of "ALL THINGS AND BEINGS"

Stephen

From: George Z. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24187, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24150


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

The Scripture quotations found in the first paragraph of page 21 are as follows:

P.21 - §1 The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said:

"You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you

preserve and control them.

This comes from the book of the prophet Nehemiah:

Nehemiah 9:6 Thou, even thou, art LORD alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth,

and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all...

"By the Sons of God were the universes made.

This is an adaptation of the following verse in the book of Psalms:

Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made...

"The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain."

This is an almost verbatim statement, again from the book of Psalms:

Psalm 104:2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:

The above Bible references are from the King James Version.

Hope this helps.

Urantially yours,

George

From: Gene N. 12/26/01
Msg. No: 23998, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 23983


Re:[UBRON: Spiritual Living] Fear

Stephen That question is stark and direct; "So, can one believe they are following the truth while actually being misled? I think so. What say you?" Regarding "tangles" here with the teaching mission and political, within the context of readers, correctness. And, the "Golden Rule", and keeping in mind that I can't fix you and you can't fix me (especially if I think not that it is I who is broken) Pride. Spiritual or Material is truly numero uno. It is the first one listed of the BIG SEVEN.

I Read part IV and if I can ever penatrate the wall of opnions, emotions and feelings I have about the Son of God, Son of Man and truly witness how He stood accused of crimes for which he would be put to Death unless he tried to change that which was around Him by reasoning or convincing his accusers otherwise.

He is the only truth. I have been misled and misled others. I try to know in my soul, my heart what is pride then do the equal virtue: HUMILITY

Thank you

From: Vic M. 12/28/01
Msg. No: 24092, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24025


national abuse

Wow!

Tough but worthy web site, Carol.

But derogatory term "Fundamentalism" should be re-termed "Islamic Fundamentalism."

http://rawasongs.fancyma rketing.net/17.htm Vic

From: DebraLee A. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24179, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 23919


by way of a friend

I am with you. I am your father/brother Michael who seeks your company without ever ceasing. Our association is continuous. Always am I in your midst.

A mission of my seventh bestowal was to experience fully the life of a mortal, to complete my universe training through gaining, not only knowledge of, but direct experience in all the creature life that has issued forth from my creative powers given me by our Father. I did not singly pursue living as a mortal for the end of the acquirement of the experience of one mortal life. This would have been sufficient in its requirements, but having been on previous bestowal missions engaged in the activities of the various creature orders, I learned that the life of any creature is more than the living of one life. Every station that I chose my bestowal experiences is a complexity of many creatures. The richness derived from an experience as each creature was multiplied through the relationships I had with all other creatures about me. So, upon the maturation of my years on Urantia, my focus was not simply for me in human form to experience a mortal life but to experience the mortal life, which entailed intimate association with my twelve apostles, my accompanying evangels, and disciples. These friends enriched the experience of humankind as I could absorb in my short time on this world.

As I gradually realized my origin, grasped the significance of my purpose for being alive on earth, I soon determined that living entailed incorporating other lives into my experience, thus greatly enriching any experience I could ever have on my own. Thus developed, as I grew and understood spiritual truths taught on this world, that the essential element of eternal value in all the teachings and in all life's undertakings was the incorporation of brotherhood, of fellowship; that to love one another and to treat another as you wish to be treated brought to the human soul a broader experience of life, full of those lasting values of love, of fellowship, of trust and faith. This inter-association of peoples does reveal to the searching soul our Father at least as it is manifest in social and fraternal relations, for the Father is social and all encompassing and all embracing of every one of His children, but this is not readily discernible, especially on this, my favorite world due to the mishaps of the administrations and epochal revelations that preceded my visit. So, it becomes vitally important, as I undertook in my earth life, to spend your time in the Father's presence alone, child to parent, creature to creator, for though the human being is naturally endowed by our Mother Spirit with the tendency to fraternize, having lost much of the great teachings of the ages past, it falls to those of you who follow the revelations that have come to this world to rise up noticeably and demonstrate the reality of relationship with the divine Father.

In understanding the family relationship of universe creatures and the Universal Creator, living and experiencing mortal life expands beyond the realms of self and becomes a life of the experience of man. This wider life experience reveals our Supreme destiny and reveals that beautiful emerging Supreme personality. Though each creature gathered in total as a whole into one body does not sum to the presence of the Supreme, our collective fellowship does indicate the reality of our Mother Supreme.

When I said years ago that he who has seen me has seen the Father, many stood in disbelief, for they could not accept that a man who appeared no different than any other man could look like the Father of the universe. Their vision of the Creator was so lofty, removed, pure and untouchable, the holy of holies, that to consider that the Father was visible through the life of the creature was unfathomable. But this truth must be taken in to all, believed wholeheartedly, and for one's life to adjust to the truth and to live verily this understanding; for the Father is seen in all His creatures by those who are willing to discern, who are able to view transparently through the philosophies, theologies, and structures of all teachings that real, true, and actual presence of God. When once it is discerned, all doubt vanishes, all doubt of the Father's presence and nurture. Indeed, the doubts of ability, the doubts of one's understanding, do remain, but your doubt of worth and of being cared for should forever be dispelled.

This world longs for an increase in the light of life. It thirsts for the water of life. It hungers for the bread of life. I came; I offered it; it was received by those who could discern with the eyes of the spirit, but of great importance, it was received by our Creator Father. Now this water, this bread, and this light are bestowed upon this world in my Spirit of Truth and forever will minister to all who chance to be born upon this world, seeking to reveal the way and the truth and the life that I have come to be known.

You are commissioned by and empowered by my spirit presence to reveal the Father as I have revealed the Father. If this were not so I would not have said,"follow me." It is not a calling that requires great education or authority. Your credentials were bestowed upon you at the choice of freewill, moral decision making. You are endowed with the Father's presence; having the fullness of God within you, you are capable of revealing the Father, for those who see you can see the Father, but they likewise would not discern Father's gift within you if it were not for the fact that they too are equally endowed. My spirit is the spirit that acts like a magnet and draws the two human souls into recognition of the presence of the God of all. My spirit enhances this comprehension.

Spend your time alone in the hills with the Father and you can completely trust my words when I said, "Be not concerned what you will say, for the spirit will speak through you." Be unswayed by the calamities and horrors, the actions of mortals mistaught and distraught, for goodness prevails. When you enter into the mansions of the Father, the worlds I have created for your benefit and growth, and look back upon this world of your nativity, you will note that with the presence of the Father's bestowal gifts and the many angelic and planetary ministers about your world, goodness outnumbers all who harbor evil in their hearts.

Our mission is not to plant light into darkness; our mission is to expand the light such that no darkness remains. Focus upon that which is true and beautiful and good. Be not concerned over ugliness. The enhancement of righteousness automatically displaces the evils of the world. I know there are personalities who are distrustful of my approach, for it is too passive. It does not confront injustice, but, my friends, confrontation is not the way of the Father, love is the way of the Father. Amplification of love will crowd out all injustice. Confrontation of injustice perpetuates the same mistakes and fosters the same hatred. Be brave. Stand for the light. Express love. You are endowed with the very reality these words represent.

I am your brother. I am your father. You are embraced; you are nurtured, and you are commissioned. We approach the celebration of my onetime visit. Annually the world celebrates my arrival. I declare that one day daily the world will demonstrate my arrival in your hearts and through your actions. Peace I bring to you. Peace I leave with you.

From: Peter H. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24172, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24162


Dogma

Hi Rick!

I think you seem to be overlooking the *authoritative* nature of revelation. The UBook has *inspired* growth of my faith/religion primarily BECAUSE it reveals truths which I have not yet come upon on my own otherwise. You need a better understanding of the *reasons* such revelations are essential!

Perhaps it only "re-affirms" your faith and knowledge. But many of us find ourselves in a position of lagging FAR behinf the knowledge of, or faith in, many or most of the truths revealed there. The fact that we accept these same truths merely on the authority of the UBook does in no way prevent further growth and increased understanding. It in fact helps it along! At least that is my personal experience with the book.

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Tiahuan 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24181, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24170


My Fear: Stephen

Hello Peter and thank you!

The source of ideation is the First Source whereas its derivative products are seen everywhere in many forms. The 'history' of which you speak is written by the victors of the material contests in which it is shaped, but the timelines of this inquiry end at its origin where the molten mists of mythology begin.

in friendship,

Rob

From: Rick C. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24184, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24175


My Fear: Stephen

Hi Stephen,

I am o2b1--Rick. I hope you are open to a few comments. You asked, when someone points out a crack in Your foundation is it wise to build upon it.

When one uses printed words for a foundation to build their home on, they have built a DOG-MA house for themselves.

The true foundation is Christ Jesus, and the house is our Father, because he is our true refuge.

Many years ago and still continuing today spiritual leaders promote words as a foundation to build on, and what they get is a religion built on words.

True faith and religion is living, continually revealitg it's self. While printed words can convey meanings and values, to see these meanings and values one must turn inward to the true revealor of truth, even the Spirit of Truth.

Words can be time bound and contain relative amounts of truth for a given time period. Words are not living progressing things, only the values have merrit.

When one locks onto words as a solid foundation for his spiritual home he has limited his growth to only the truth contained within the words only, and has built his home on lifeless dogma.

I don't mean to be hateful here Stephen, but I would encourage you to lodge Your Soul in the refuge of our Father who's foundation is Christ Jesus, a living Truth in himself, and the only true foundation.

o2b1

From: Tiahuan 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24212, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24197


Dogma -to Rick C,PeterH, ListOp,ALL

Dear Dave,

The practice of 'theology' is a second hand business run by those sitting on 'stools' exchanging for a fee another's discarded waste, but living religion is a spiritual odyssey in which every step is an exciting first walking progressively into the uncharted territory of robust faith guided by our Father's love.

Rob

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24196, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24162


Dogma

Beautiful offering, Rick!

Thank you for sharing your personal findings at this time. Your heartfelt hope of improving things for all here by reiterating how dogma functions in relation to forward movement, has been especially helpful to me, with what I'm working on now. I'm assisted by your reminder that each of our's experiences are our own personal education/preparation for world service and that none of those is intended to fill the bill for all.

Far too easily, I forget that it isn't for me to determine when another's graduation from their pet dogma is to occur. Look with the eyes of assurance that all things are working to build a greater good; THAT is what I need to do more of. So again, thank you for your poetic pleas that we not abandon our First Love.

Uplifted by your gift, RhonnaLeigh

From: Bud R. 12/24/01
Msg. No: 23912, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Family Life , Reply to: 23896


generational sins

Hi, Rick.

I didn't know if you were writing to me or George Barnard.

I would say we all face that light at all times.

We are not at odds about the light or the source. But I see light creating fear and fear where light should be.

I believe we will begin to see the same light in due time. For now, why not let it shine from all sources. Each of us are impregnable in the Father's light, darkness can't harm us.

With love,

From: Louise L. C. 12/27/01
Msg. No: 24017, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24005


UBRON Transcended II

Steffani,

I find myself in agreement with much of your letter:

STEFFANI: "Kindness and courtesy and tolerance is also for those who have a different outlook than ourselves...born of spiritual maturity as its inevitable fruition. This concept is presented as "unity without uniformity" based on the purpose of recognizing our brothers as equal sons of God by virtue of His Fatherhood of every one of us."

LOUISE: There are members on this forum who choose to express themselves in a very down to earth manner, writing down to earth posts, getting straight to the point. These people are labelled as "rude and unkind" for their ability to go 'straight for the jugular' and say it like they see it. From their own hearts they are more than likely truly believing their honesty is an act of kindness, which to me it is. As for tolerance, we on these forums have to tolerate the various ways we all have of expressing ourselves. We have to take a nice deep breath so we can get beyond feeling offended, then develop the maturity to understand the real message contained in such posts.

STEFFANI: "...your other suppositions are so prejudicial that they provide strong evidence that your personal preference be that UBRON narrow it's scope of reality to accomodate your own comfort level..."

LOUISE: From my observations, the moment someone dares to widen the scope of reality on UBRON they get chastised, UBRON's scope of reality is fairly narrow.

STEFFANI: "At least having a wise moderator with vision expanded past the tip of his own nose is a more helpful protection for UBRON than giving those who believe their purely personal agendas constitute the Will of God. But it is only their own evil imaginations that lead them to doubt the good intentions of their fellows who post and share here."

LOUISE: Yeah, even those considered to be mean and rude shouldn't have their good intentions doubted.

STEFFANI: "Frankly, I do not see your characterization of Rob, whom I have known from Urantia study groups in both our family homes since the early 80's as the least bit accurate. Or to be anything other than grossly unfair perceptual distortions and mischaracterizations of an unfathomable magnitude. And calling him a "sneaky dog" is really way past the minimal degree of respect that I'd like to see accorded every brother on UBRON."

LOUISE: I say this with all due respect...if you tend to be the same type of person as Rob then you're going to think he's an OK kinda guy. To me he does come across as a "sneaky dog" who dodges straight- talk. Just my perception for what it's worth.

STEFFANI: "You really need to get past painting others with the brush smears of your pet conspiracy theories....which far from being gone...are lurking so close to the surface that your evaluations of others motives become so tainted by your deep seated suspicions...that any semblance of of what you would claim is "discernment" has been hopelessly derailed."

LOUISE: Too true. The motive of what comes across to some of you as a cutting and rude post is more than likely rooted in pureness.

I know we have the GOLDEN RULE but surely we have to mix the Golden Rule with relative maturity and commonsense. Let's not be so easily offended and get all self-righteous the moment someone posts a heartfelt, down-to-earth and perhaps challenging post. Trust that their motive is pure.

Regards, Louise

From: Charlotte W. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24185, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24172


Dogma

Dear Rick, Peter and others,

The Urantia Book opened up my heart. Its perspective on God's love and Jesus's love for humanity and for me, personally, swept me away and lives on in my life. It has given me the fuel for an eternity of inner growth and moving myself toward God. It has helped me see myself as a citizen of the universe, not just of a particular state or country on this one planet. It has given me many ways to think about my place in history and my place amongst my fellows as I live every day.

I don't see the Urantia Book as faith set in stone. I see the UBook as cracking open the stone, making room for my true faith in God and for a manner of living that brings me close to the people around me. Since I became involved with reading the UBook, I've met people, like yourselves, who are also really seeking after truth and doing their best to live their lives by God's will. The friends I've made through the UBook will last me throughout eternity, surely, because they are based on loving God.

You're exactly right that if ever anyone's seeking leads them somewhere that is an end instead of a beginning, or a closing down of understanding and love for the humans around us, instead of an opening up of that understanding and love, then that person should reconsider. It's an important question that we should keep chewing on throughout our lives. Thanks for the heads up.

Love, Charlotte

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24160, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Our Ideals & Goals , Reply to: 24136


tolerance? tolerate? needed actions

Dear Dave,

Again, I feel the need to apologize to you. I hope that your patience with these repeats lasts as long as my slips in composure, but more importantly that your confidence of belonging in God's idea of perfection isn't compromised by my critiques of the effects of your presentation of your views. It is not right for me to post thoughts that I sense might make you feel bad and after posting that one, that's exactly what I've been thinking. Where is my example of the tolerance for other perspectives I originally posted here to promote? Definitely NOT in the last paragraph of that last reply!

Elsewhere this very day I asked something like, "Who am I to say the oppressed must be saved from their oppressors?" For is it not that which we've fought hardest for, that we cherish most dearly? That is how it's been all of my life, so why should I undertake to "save" another from a similar experience? Maybe that's what we abrade each other for, Dave; to help me us both work that out, for improved health in our families. If so, this particular topic is not the best place to continue.

On this one, I can try to inform you of more effective ways to reach people like myself, in order to assist UBRON in realizing it's goal of greater participation on the lists. Certainly though, I won't be very useful in that regard to you or anyone else if my style of communication with you projects hostility towards what you know yourself to be and value.

Besides, for such efforts to bear fruit, you'd have had to express an interest in it first. That is what I thought your many lengthy, colored, enlarged and bold-typed posts here were a demonstration of. But your statements (that outreach is of as little interest to you as being of service to others' spiritual upliftment) makes plain that I've misread your signals somehow. I can be very dense at times. My but it took me a long time to hear what you've been saying on that subject!

I do not understand your position, and your conflicting messages here are a real good explanation for why not. Thanks for clearing up why you post here, and again, sorry for any hurt feelings my remarks -- especially concerning children in your family may have caused. That was in bad taste regardless of how many times you keep bringing them up. Quite out of line with our ideal of practicing the Golden Rule, or showing tolerance for differing levels of understanding regarding the respectful treatment of children.

Off to process s From: Bo A. 12/21/01
Msg. No: 23765, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Our Global Network


tolerance & spiritual indolence

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What a sorry sight for

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Page 1918

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successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: "Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us." But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

To me this assures that divine truth is not sectarian and not verbiage. Important is actual service quality rendered--- balanced against qualities received by that individual. A nonsectarian who never connected with sectarian exposure (rejected dogma), still can have some indirect recognition of divine truth. Divine truth has managed to manifest,(patch-worked in places), in society. That person will be "reckoned" according to his/ her inheritance received, (the society that raised them).

Therefore, regardless of a label placed on someone,

regardless of creed branding and even

regardless of name recognition ie: the Anglicized name Jesus,

regardless of how garbled the spiritual broadcast they receive,

regardless of never really hearing revelations,

regardless of how little divinity they started life with.........

If they manage to grow even a little and nurture some measure of truth in others, that will be much better than someone who nurtures no truth at all. Even if the other preaches 60 years, if they fail to nurture spiritual growth in themself and in others, that's failure.

ome more,

From: Ms September R. 12/28/01
Msg. No: 24104, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living


BOM: What We Believe: Jesus at Rama

BROTHERHOOD OF MAN

What we Believe

Paper 146: Jesus at Ramah

Jesus listened with patience and sympathy to the teachings of an aged Greek philosopher – allowing the truth of many things he said. Later when his disciples remonstrated with Jesus for doing so, he answered them saying:

True and genuine certainty does not in the least fear outward analysis, nor does truth resent honest criticism. You should never forget that intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of what we believe. No man is at any time disturbed by his neighbor’s attitude when he has perfect confidence in the truth of that which he wholeheartedly believes. Courage is the confidence of thoroughgoing honesty about those things which one professes to believe. Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals.

From: Mr. Jason F. 12/20/01
Msg. No: 23747, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Business/commercial


Sign out icon for UBRON since Steph

Dear Patrick,

We need a what's new on Ubron.org. I am in favor for a "passports Sign Out" icon to prevent cookies and invasion of privacy act and terms of conduct. This is a legal situation here. If it does get nasty you need insurance and a licence to be a non-profitable organization with either a lawyer or sovereign to defend our community. I propose all in favor for a trustee and a donation of Five dollars a year.

From: Steffani M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24214, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24114


UBRON Transcended II

Well Peter...

I really don't see that "supercharged words" have ever been the problem. When they are used as weapons against others...then it's a problem!

The very idea of people with a certain type of mindset who like to find ways to control the opportunities of others to think whatever they will ...being given "authority", frankly, scares the hell out of me.

The fates of Giordano Bruno and Baruch Spinoza and so many other brothers come quickly to mind. And the spirit of the inquisition is still alive even in the hearts of some who post on UBRON.

I wonder who it is you think of as the "we" who see "TeaM as a threat"? The majority of UB readers on UBRON do not consider the many here who participate as any kind of disturbing trend...even if they aren't directly involved...they don't shun their friends who are. It is only yourself and a very few...admittedly vociferous in their negativity... who feel endangered.

Another thing I like about UBRON (and ESG;-) is the simplicity of the forum format...read oldest to newest posts...respond to whatever seems to elicit one and skip who or whatever you'd prefer not to engage.

For reasons stated previously in this post...I rarely join human organizations...especially those with an aroma of "specialness" or elitism...inner and outer 'circles' or a tendency to shut anyone out. Only as spirit directs by a lure of generating a genuine interest do I willingly assent to be a part of a particular group or other.

Recently I did feel strong inclination to be involved with a new group whose values are resonant and compatible. However, my first post to its 'message board' is probably also my last as it is exceedingly awkward and cumbersome to use...and something that difficult to navigate isn't worth the excessive amount of time it takes to figure out who said what to whom when.

I just don't have that degree of patience with anything that has been needlessly complexified. So I hope that doesn't happen here on UBRON anytime soon.

Anyway, try not to confuse your own ideas of "right and wrong" or "good and evil" with anything that needs to be imposed on...or restricted from access to others.

Only Love,

Steffani

Hi Steffani!

I missed your original post and only found it yesterday. I think your overall point of view is quite valid, but I disagree with what you see my motives as being.

I simply maintained that the Golden Rule being the only rule here is merely a pretense (or a self-deception), and that what we really have are unstated behavior rules. Looking at the people who get suspended, the prohibitions mostly concern super-charged words.

I pointed out that Jesus, himself, used similar super- charged words, so that we cannot pretend that their mere use on UBRON is other than the Golden Rule based.

I am quite sure that many people considered Jesus to be "mean and disrespectful" including his own mother! Certainly the Pharisee did, who eventually terminated more than his posting privileges. Or tried to!

You obviously know Rob as a whole human being, whereas we only know what that part of him revealed in his posts here. That is a truth with which all of us here must contend. I am sure that Chris would come across as being a better person than some of his stronger words might possibly indicate, as would you, and as would I, if our larger personalities could be known.

Still, what we DO SEE here is pretty much the inner person stripped from its outer cover. Here we become what we say (Jesus: "As a man thinks, so he is") and when we say what we think, we are more real than we ever can be face-to-face with each other, where we can be misled by the attractiveness of the flesh and fooled by superficial manners, and/or other material attributes which will NOT survive death.

"Unity with uniformity" is a valid point, but I am sure that you realize that some of us see TeaM as representing much, much more than just a different point of view. The reality is that TeaM got much of its start recruiting on UBook forums and lists. Fred Harris makes this quite clear in his book. Right or wrong, we see TeaM as a threat to newbie appreciation of the URANTIA Book. Like it or not, we see it as representing the actual false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing which Jesus warned were sure to come.

I was not suggesting that Rob's posting privileges be suspended or terminated, but pointing out the prejudicial inconsistency in the fact that Chris was suspended although Rob was not. I personally think that bad teachings are far more harmful than bad words!

Abandoning my conspiracy theory simply means that I have taken it off of my website, http://www.urantiagate.com (which was more-or-less exclusively devoted to the subject). And I have stopped thinking about it and researching it. NOTHING has taken place to change my mind about its roots. If you cannot discern that my postings are VERY different now than what they were like before, I suggest you ask around. Don't you remember how Nancy and I used to clash over the issue? We hardly ever do anymore.

Abandoning my conspiracy theory also means that I have given up any ideas about directly countering TeaM, rather I DO try now to overcome its (IMO) evil by doing good. I am committed to the New Revelation of Jesus, which The URANTIA Book tells us is to be the REAL "Correcting Time", and it has NOTHING to do with flocks of channelled purported celestial "teachers"! Rather, it is to be accomplished by those who "dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings". I am coming to understand the truth that groups which the Father has not planted will be uprooted. My operating truth vis a vis TeaM -- since abandoning the conspiricy theory -- has been, when there is so much good news to publish, why focus on evil even though it seems to be a fact. But all of this is a matter of growth, so character improvements take time.

But when TeaM pops up in my face (I was in a normal-type discussion with Rob when he suddenly started posting his TeaM stuff) I treat it like I would any postings, on its merits or lack of them, as I see it! You might notice that I have NOT made any comments about the recent 1111 postings which I feel are equally obnoxious. I am TRYING to show restraint! And I will have to admit that Rob's attitude really rubs me the wrong way! But I have never asked that he be silenced. I only pointed out my belief that his sarcastic and obfuscated put-downs are no better than Chris' angry words, and I have tried to correct some of his errors. I would be more than happy if Rob "woke up".

And I will have to deny your charge that personally I am advocating "interfering with free will choices" in any way in any of my recently posted ideas concerning UBRON. Nor am I trying to "narrow its scope of reality"! Perhaps you will explain to me how having UBRON governed by the *whole body* of its membership ŕ la Jesus rather than being ruled by a single individual or small coterie would necessarily work the effect you claim? I see it as being quite the opposite, Jesus- style group discipline would allow for more free will choices and a broadening UBRON's scope of reality.

You say, "at least we have a wise moderator with vision," etc. And I agree. And if UBRON is considered strictly as a web forum, it excels in my opinion. But as a "kingdom group" it falls flat on its face! Jesus-style group government does NOT put discipline into even the hands of a "wise moderator".

I do think the whole group would NOT take kindly to any REAL "interfering with free will choices" or attempting to control the forum by "bullying and bulldozing new participants", which you charge, but I also deny that I ever have done that. I would HOPE that the group would not allow UBRON to become a *platform* for advocating TeaM and ACIM! But I would imagine that the group WOULD allow a reasonable amount of open discussion of materials from those sources, wherein it would be expected that they would be compared with actual URANTIA Book teachings.

As to discussions of extraordinary personal religious experiences and other-than-TeaM purported contacts with spirit agencies, I don't see how anyone could ever expect to present them on a forum dedicated to URANTIA Book readers and NOT expect to see the book's appropriate teachings being appealed to in response. But that would be what my proposed inner circles would be for -- a place where you and others could go and lock people like me out! If your circle's posting appeared on the public UBRON page, however, the whole-group authority would still function as to their appropriateness on a URANTIA Book readers' forum. But they could escape group overview by keeping their posts private. The inner circles should have this option (IMO).

Possibly the existing and virtually unused KeyNets could be employed in this manner, as topic/goal-dedicated private, semi- private, or public "inner circles". Pat tells me that there are other unused and possibly unexplored UBRON software functions. But all this is simply personal ideas as to how I think UBRON can be improved, how it can be made to work better for everybody.

Would it make me personally more "comfortable" to be a member of a Jesus-style Kingdom internet group, instead of a member of a secular-style "religious" web forum that does not follow the teachings of the revelation which is its basis, and which misuses the Golden Rule? The answer is: YES!

YES, YES, YES!

Sincerely,

Peter

Steffani Wrote: Peter,

Surely you know that the jist of golden rule is to treat others the way one would themselves appreciate being treated...and furthermore...how WE believe in our hearts God would prefer that we treat them.

This is the difference between being mean and judgemental of others... which you say avoiding is one of your goals, this despite your exceedingly transparent agenda to impose your beliefs on others here on this forum.

Kindness and courtesy and tolerance is also for those who have a different outlook than ourselves...born of spiritual maturity as its inevitable fruition. This concept is presented as "unity without uniformity" based on the purpose of recognizing our brothers as equal sons of God by virtue of His Fatherhood of every one of us.

Aside from your contention that persons of selected nationalities should be granted a far greater leeway in being rude and disrespectful to their fellows...your other suppositions are so prejudicial that they provide strong evidence that your personal preference be that UBRON narrow it's scope of reality to accomodate your own comfort level...as well as that of several other self styled dogmatically rigid mortal 'teachers' who regularly vie to have control of this list format.

(cut and paste of UB verses with no indication of their own thoughts and understanding of the same...or even that they HAVE given them any serious consideration past hairsplitting definitions ;-)

Interfering with the free will choices and decisions and lacking confidence that latitude in discussion of personal religious experiences might have an adverse effect on "newbies" is not only manipulative...but shows a lack of trust in the skill of their Thought Adjusters and the Spirit of Truth to lead them along in the way right that is right for them as individuals who are capable of making up their own minds with God's help and unfailing guidance.

At this time their favorite tactic of those who would control this list is bullying and bulldozing new participants who bring in fresh perspectives on old issues; which could be of great value to the others here who still realize they may have something to learn from other viewpoints being presented here...because they do not believe they have the exclusive franchise of the one and only right understanding of truth...theirs...and so already know everything.

At least having a wise moderator with vision expanded past the tip of his own nose is a more helpful protection for UBRON than giving those who believe their purely personal agendas constitute the Will of God. But it is only their own evil imaginations that lead them to doubt the good intentions of their fellows who post and share here.

Frankly, I do not see your characterization of Rob, whom I have known from Urantia study groups in both our family homes since the early 80's as the least bit accurate. Or to be anything other than grossly unfair perceptual distortions and mischaracterizations of an unfathomable magnitude. And calling him a "sneaky dog" is really way past the minimal degree of respect that I'd like to see accorded every brother on UBRON.

You really need to get past painting others with the brush smears of your pet conspiracy theories....which far from being gone...are lurking so close to the surface that your evaluations of others motives become so tainted by your deep seated suspicions...that any semblance of of what you would claim is "discernment" has been hopelessly derailed.

Offered in real hope that the truth of Love be made manifest to you...

Steffani

From: Steve R. 12/13/01
Msg. No: 23281, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 23254


A Message for all UBRON Members

Patrick, Thank you very much for your message, I really enjoyed reading your views. I don't believe we could have a better person at the helm. You have my admiration and respect. Merry Christmas!

From: Steffani M. 12/28/01
Msg. No: 24142, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Prayer & Worship , Reply to: 24073


Siege Mentality

Congradulations Mike,

You have come to the understanding realization that was the reason I got on your case about awhile back...Bob 'Caligastia' Burgess and his crew are far more in need of prayers than cruelty or ridicule...for exactly the reason that is the title of this post.

Only Love,

Steffani

Dear Rick and List-

Thank you, Rick. This has caused my higher self to come awake and regard Mr.Price with pity and patience instead of anger and mistrust. What David has said so far speaks volumes about what is going on in his mind. I pray that his Thought Adjuster will win out and help him with his personal issues.

I have seen this pattern before and I ignored it. I applaud those who deal with love those who wish to "stir up" fear and anger in a list that is based upon a special kind of fellowship that I cannot gain anywhere in 'real' life.

And I pray for others who held ugly thoughts of this lost soul; myself included.

May we all come to experience and live the Truth that has been so freely given to us.

As the Master said, "My peace I leave with you." Peace and Love, Michael "Sixosix" B.

From: Steve R. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24154, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24148


My Fear

I am enjoying the irony that this message subject or thread began as a 'fear' of having unsuspecting new readers 'confused' by the thought that readers of the Urantia Book are somehow tainted by association with the practice of 'channelling' particularly as results in Teaching Mission transcripts, but as the thread continues it would seem to me that any such 'newcomers' would more likely be alarmed that there appeared such a long line of fear in a forum presumably occupied with a devotion to the posture of 'faith'. Rob *****************************************************

This brings to mind a favorite "key" for me, I don't even recall where I got the term, "Faith Grasp", that knowledge that can only be had first through faith, which then transforms it into knowledge.

From: Vic M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24201, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24199


My Fear/Chicken Little

Great Fairy Tale, Carol (H).

I'm going to read it to my grandson (age 4 3/4) when he gets back here next month.

Then for all you UBRONers, I'm going to report his reaction. Maybe we can measure his spiritual perception against yours.

Vic M.

Stephen writes: "If someone points out that your foundation has a crack in it, do you turn a blind eye and build your house upon it anyway?"

I would if her name was Chicken Little-----

One day Chicken Little was walking in the woods when -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell on her head "Oh my goodness!" said Chicken Little. "The sky is falling! I must go and tell the king."

On her way to the king's palace, Chicken Little met Henny Penny. Henny Penny said that she was going into the woods to hunt for worms. "Oh no, don't go!" said Chicken Little. "I was there and the sky fell on my head! Come with me to tell the king."

So Henny Penny joined Chicken Little and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Cocky Locky, who said, "I'm going to the woods to hunt for seeds."

"Oh no, don't go!" said Henny Penny. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king."

So Cocky Locky joined Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Goosey Poosey, who was planning to go to the woods to look for berries.

"Oh no, don't go!" said Cocky Locky. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king." So Goosey Poosey joined Cocky Locky, Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along as fast as they could.

Then who should appear on the path but sly old Foxy Woxy.

"Where are you going, my fine feathered friends?" asked Foxy Woxy. He spoke in a polite manner, so as not to frighten them.

"The sky is falling!" cried Chicken Little. "We must tell the king."

"I know a shortcut to the palace," said Foxy woxy sweetly. "Come and follow me."

But wicked Foxy Woxy did not lead the others to the palace. He led them right up to the entrance of his foxhole. Once they were inside, Foxy Woxy was planning to gobble them up!

Just as Chicken Little and the others were about to go into the fox's hole, they heard a strange sound and stopped. It was the king's hunting dogs, growling and howling. How Foxy Woxy ran, across the meadows and through the forests, with the hounds close behind. He ran until he was far, far away and never dared to come back again. After that day, Chicken Little always carried an umbrella with her when she walked in the woods. The umbrella was a present from the king. And if -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell, Chicken Little didn't mind a bit. In fact, she didn't notice it at all. Carol F.

From: tawQuin r. 11/26/01
Msg. No: 22488, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Our Ideals & Goals


personal expression of UB

.. all that choose may reveal their personal expression of the UB .. any WAY, they may choose.

.. and as agressively as possible.

page 1931

178:1.14 You are not to be passive mystics or colorless ascetics; you should not become dreamers and drifters, supinely trusting in a fictitious Providence to provide even the necessities of life. You are indeed to be gentle in your dealings with erring mortals, patient in your intercourse with ignorant men, and forbearing under provocation; but you are also to be valiant in defense of righteousness, mighty in the promulgation of truth, and AGGRESSIVE in the preaching of this gospel of the kingdom, even to the ends of the earth.

The existence of the ego/animal self does not go on to the mansion worlds after earth/urantia.The physical poisons of material mind, fear,anger,envy,jealousy,suspicion and intolerance, these, do not continue on..Only all that is good and truth and beauty goes on, for THAT is all that is real. If one is forever dominated by ego mind then one is not taking 'much' with them to the mansion worlds, in fact, there are those who will not survive...they will cease to exist , like a shadow disappearing into the night.If one dies, then the Supreme has to make up for that one's loss. Everyone of us is responsible for the growth of the Supreme. It is not just one's personal existence that is important... one has a cosmic responsibility to the growth and completion of the Supreme. Everything one does or doesn't do effects the growth of the Supreme.

My Teacher always says "if you step on a daisy you disturb a star" meaning everything you do or don't do is CAUSAL ..right from this temporal existence , rippling out into the cosmos for all eternity. AND it is happening NOW all at the same time.

From: Tod L. 12/15/01
Msg. No: 23459, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 23448


Several Good Reasons

Hi,

Ultimately, as with all spiritual insight, evolved or revealed, the truth level found within a written text must, and can only be, understood and realized via the daily working of our lives.

I speak only for myself when I say, all of the paths I have studied and practiced during my life-long-God-search have each in succession added new insight and potential for God-like soul growth. Each, in turn, has illuminated our Father's personal loving will for the inhabitants of this world; and for me as an individual seeker.

All along the way there have been pitfalls, obstacles, lies to deal with. Too, all along the way there have been increases in understanding, increases in inner awareness, increases in intellectual and spiritual achievement...but never, until my eyes first fell upon the wondrous pages of the Urantia Book, did so many pieces of the puzzle snap into a clear cosmic picture.

Subjectivity, as well as objectivity, has its rightful place in our respective individual and unique search for God's will, and the subsequent doing thereof. Likewise, the realization that the Urantia Book's message is pure truth, beauty, and goodness, must be individually realized and embraced...may we all find this to be the case in such a dark and hurtful world as this Caligastia has perpetrated.

Whether this newly corresponding individual is actually the age-old Caligastia himself, taking advantage of recently developed typing skills :-), or just another subservient mouthpiece, no matter, Jesus has already dealt with the issue of his rebellion, and found him lacking. We needn't be concerned with such hopeless and frustrated complaining on his part. All the universe knows better.

Peace an From: joseph h. 11/14/01
Msg. No: 22019, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Humor


unified diversity

Greetings Urantians,

1129§8 103:1.1 The unity of religious experience among a social or racial group derives from the identical nature of the God fragment indwelling the individual. It is this divine in man that gives origin to his unselfish interest in the welfare of other men. But since personality is unique—no two mortals being alike—it inevitably follows that no two human beings can similarly interpret the leadings and urges of the spirit of divinity which lives within their minds. A group of mortals can experience spiritual unity, but they can never attain philosophic uniformity. And this diversity of the interpretation of religious thought and experience is shown by the fact that twentieth- century theologians and philosophers have formulated upward of five hundred different definitions of religion. In reality, every human being defines religion in the terms of his own experiential interpretation of the divine impulses emanating from the God spirit that indwells him, and therefore must such an interpretation be unique and wholly different from the religious philosophy of all other human beings.

(my comments) since we all share "the identical nature of the God fragment" everyone ov us has the to get our religious experiences in what ever manner truly works for us. That’s great but how do we reconcile with one another knowing that instead ov showing unselfish interest in the welfare of other men. Some ov these folks here on ubron are wasting our time with all of these "fights" what ever happened to agreeing to disagree or any ov those civil methods ov communication, I see many ov these posts that are no more than Spam when I see the words that start them out, and a lot ov them are long and drawn out (like anyone would read something like that for that long).

For me being on ubron was kind ov an honor at first I thought that the petty word play was humorous for a very short time and then I would just about delete any replies to any original posts, back then some ov the posts were good, there were a couple of good story tellers that I don’t see any more, but these things happen, ov course there are still gems in the rubble, you just gotta have a sense ov humor and unconditional love.

Ubron was one ov the best things about buying a computer it can connect us all to one another and allow us to share in the joys ov our faith. That does not mean that we are alike!! There would be no need for any ubron if that were the case.

Unified diversity deficient bipolar syndrome

Youkneefiiddeevercity.

This message has been spell checked and proofread twice. They’re only words please do not be alarmed. The opinions expressed are those ov my own I think and therefore You can’t ever think them yourselves so there!!!

Peace And Love be with you all (Peasandluvbewitya’ll) Joseph H.

d brotherho From: Saskia P. 12/22/01
Msg. No: 23836, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 23827


UBRON Transcended

Don't the Theosophists also have grades of intitiates, who pass tests devised by fellow mortals, to advance from level to level? This was not started with Madame Blavatsky, the founder, but by her followers and later offshoots. I'm sure theirs started with an innocent suggestion, and now look what it's grown into! We are all the same.

What we need are not only goals, but tasks. When a group of people are working together to achieve a common end, such as building a bridge, there is little bickering. All you need is a leader to coordinate the various talents and skills, and people will learn to love and communicate with each other in the process. The Internet does not lend itself to this type of thing. How many times are we admonished to DO God's will, not just talk about it? In God's universe it is ACTION that counts, and where there is no action there is frustration.

Saskia

**********************************

Peter,

The early Christian church did just such a thing, and even today, its descending ranks of bishops, priests, and deacons condescending to feed the 'mass' of the 'people' continue to perpetuate this rationale of religion as a human authority.

Rob

od,

From: Steven H. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24156, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Our Faith Community , Reply to: 23981


United UB Readers Initiative

Hi Peter!

PETER: What you say sounds good. Real good! <<>>

STEVE: Thank you!

PETER: MY COMMENT: The difference, as I see it, might be best illustrated by pointing to the difference between the 12 (or 24) Apostles, the 70 evangelists, and those people who believed Jesus and took his teachings to heart, but did not actually become overt teaching missionaries of any sort. These represent 3 (or 4) different levels of dedication and service. The New Revelation of Jesus will be seen in the life actions of those who are "exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men". The accent is on "exclusively devoted". There will no doubt be others who split their devotion among several worthy goals, etc.

STEVE: I finally get what you're saying...like a latter-day Urantian Jesuit thing (avoiding the institutional hook-up). But I still don't know why such individuals would need to form a separate and distinct circle of dedication apart from the religious hoi-poloi (common folk). I think such segregation might inevitably lead to sectarianism, elitism, and resentment on the part of others. I'd rather see such shining examples of dedication easily and informally integrated with other dedicated religionists so as to provide a proximate and steady source of inspiration.

PETER: Also the statement at 195:9.4 says: "Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings." So this throws into question your group's expressed intent to rely on The URANTIA Book and its teachings.

STEVE: An epistemological point here: Won't these religous leaders depend on The URANTIA Book's narrative of Jesus' incomparable teachings? To the extent they do, we are all readers and interpreters of the same book, perhaps utilizing different emphases. To the extent they choose to access the Spirit of Truth, all UB readers and followers of Jesus are on the same page so to speak.

PETER: I have NOT come to a conclusion about this question. Are we who take this "dare" to forego the entirity of the 5th Epochal Revelation and just chose those parts which may be directly attributed to Jesus? (Naturally adding the inner "teachings" -- or the outward expression of the inner Spirit of Truth).

STEVE: I appreciate your desire to explore this difficult and interesting issue. I, for one, find it antithetical to the spirit of Jesus' religion to have dedication to this teachings be a basis for a *separation* among believers. I would rather believe that those most dedicated to his spirit and truth would find ever more creative ways to demonstrate *unity* in spirit rather than *distinction* in spirit. The writings of St. Paul can be instructive on this count, since the early Christians faced this problem acutely.

PETER: It seems to me that the New Revelation of Jesus is the primary thing. And the so-called "worldwide mission of the Urantia Book" is strictly secondary. But I do at present rely to a great extent on the teachings of The UBook, but I would take that "dare" (indeed I have already) if I knew exactly what it meant, practically speaking. I am sure that if it is for me to learn it, I shall. My mind is simply questioning at this point.

STEVE: Your honesty is refreshing! While I agree that the life and teachings of Jesus will always be the primary source of spiritual inspiration for every UBeliever, I do question the practical implications of publically recognizing and instituting inner and outer circles of believers, ostensibly based on degrees of exclusive devotion to Jesus. The problem with the self-identification of such groups is that it will--sooner or later--result in some form of creedal doctrine to aid with self-identification and selection. Also, inner and outer religious circles reminds me too much of esotericism.

The historical instance of the apostles is specifically related to the unique person and mission of Jesus of Nazareth, imo. Jesus is not with us in the flesh, so we have no need for an equivalent group of latter-day apostles: "a class of men separate and distinct from all other men on earth." (140:3.1)

Let the term "faith" stand for the individual's relation to God rather than for the creedal formulation of what some group of mortals have been able to agree upon as a common religious attitude. "Have you faith? Then have it to yourself." (99:5.7)

This same challenge of course confronts all the Founding Partners of the Initiative, or any group of believers for that matter. But I hope and pray that genuine dedication to the principles of spiritual unity (as discussed on pages 1591-2) will serve to discourage the formation of creeds, sects, inner circles, and institutionalized religion among all UBelievers. We shall see.

take care, steve

From: Mike K. 12/22/01
Msg. No: 23831, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 23829


UBRON Falls Short

Sorry I didn't hear that Chris Barnaby had been suspended, but I have gotten into the bad habit of deleting most of what is on the list because of him and the bashing of individuals that has taken place. I sympathize with the listops, but there is no way to keep up with everything that is on here. If I don't agree with someone on a post, I try not to issue a challenge, and have no time to get into a dispute. I made the mistake of posting this same individual off-list, to encourage him to lighten up, and got an incredibly vitriolic response. The same thing happened with a French Canadian, perhaps one Peter referenced, and I automatically route email from both of them to my trash. I don't think the list is the place to ARGUE about issues, and my position on an issue should not make me a target for ill-intentioned personal attacks.

By taking disagreements off-list I felt I could spare others the dismay of seeing "cyberspeak" fail to communicate, but it seems that I have twice succeeded in terminating any relationship I may have had with these people.

The fault is not with the list, it is rooted in the inability of the medium to fully express meanings.

I recently wrote to a young college student, mentioning that a telephone conversation was incapable of reflecting emotion, and he laughed. He feels that the phone is much better than email. Perhaps that is so, and perhaps the next evolution of communication will seem less expressive than email.

UBRON is too essential for our community, lets not waste it.

From: Michael M. 12/17/01
Msg. No: 23553, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 23549


Tonight's Ham lesson

Observe how predictably Bud goes directly into personal attack...

What I fear is the misdirection being broadcast by those who don't know S___ from shinola and the effect is has on the public image of the Fifth Epochal Revelation.

Faithfully,

Michael M.

From: Rayvingbull 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24236, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24234

 

Steve:

I don't think this is the line you're looking for, but just in case

I'll post it for you?

P21:1, 1:0.1The Universal Father is the God of all creation, the

First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of

God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite

upholder. ( End of UB text )

Ray

From: Sam C. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24237, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
General


Is 'Inconsistency' our best choice?

Hello all,

I have noticed a lot of attention being directed towards this criteria of "Consistancy". I feel the need to take a step back from this and question whether we are being well served in applying it to The Urantia Book as though the Book were a homogenous offering by a single entity whose validity we are judging by an examination for applied perfection.

The Book IS a collection of papers written by a number of persons and groups widely separated in time and space, if not dimension, purpose, and achievement.

Since perfection is the undertaking of so many and clearly not claimed by most contributors to the Book perhaps we would be better served by a more generous criteria.

Fraternally Yours,

Sam

From: Carol F. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24240, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24205


the universal father

"THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father--one God in the place of many gods--enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller."

The Foreword of the Urantia Papers tries to prepare us for terminology used in the series of Papers. On page two we are given a definition of creative:

P.2 4. Creative--self-distributive and divinely revealed Deity.

To Create is to make possible, the 'sons of God' carry out the actual act of 'creation'. Thus:

"You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made."

From: Carol F. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24242, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study


sons of God

There is a lot of interesting study on the internet about the term 'sons of God'. Most seem to agree that it generally refers to angels, though there is no order to these unseen beings like we have in the Urantia Papers. Here is just one short study I found on the internet discussing 'sons of God':

-------------------------------------

Let's look at all of the Old Testament references to "sons of God" (Heb. bene elim or bene elohim):

GENESIS 6:1 When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the divine beings [bene elohim] saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and took wives from among those that pleased them. 3 The Lord said, "My breath shall not abide in man forever, since he too is flesh; let the days allowed him be one hundred and twenty years." 4 It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth when the divine beings [bene elohim] cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown. (Tanakh, the new Jewish Publication Society translation according to the traditional Hebrew text)

DEUTERONOMY 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God [bene elim]. (RSV)

JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God [bene elohim] came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came among them. (NKJV)

JOB 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God [bene elohim] came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. (NKJV)

JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God [bene elohim] shouted for joy? (NKJV)

PSALM 29:1 O give the Lord you sons of God [bene elim], give the Lord glory and power; 2 give the Lord the glory of his name. Adore the Lord in his holy court. (The Psalms: A New Translation)

PSALM 89:5 The heavens proclaim your wonders, O Lord; the assembly of your holy ones proclaims your truth. 6 For who in the skies can compare with the Lord or who is like the Lord among the sons of God [bene elim]? (The Psalms: A New Translation)

As you can see, each reference above is to angels. There are no instances in the Old Testament where the phrase "sons of God" refers to men. Let's see what E.W. Bullinger has to say about these "sons of God" in Appendix 23 of The Companion Bible: "The Sons of God" in Gen. 6.2, 4.

It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God." For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh." God is spirit and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3.6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3.38. Those "in Christ" having the "new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2 Cor. 5.17; Eph. 2.l0) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1.13; Rom. 8.14, 15; 1 John 3.1).

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1.6; 2.1; 38.7; Ps. 29.1; 89.6; Dan. 3.25 (no art.). We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6.4 in any other sense. Moreover in Gen. 6.2 the Sept. renders it angels."

From: Steffani M. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24249, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24233


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Yes Agon...

ST: Sorry...different quote in question. Try and find "By the sons of God were the universes made".

SM: I believe George has already provided you with that one...as well as the other piece that I found in Psalms.

As Sharon and others have observed... the UB corrects and fills in the information that was not given in the Bible due to the state of evolutionary progress the humans to whom it was given...as well as the multitude of items they themselves for one reason or another purposefully ommitted from translations...or has simply been lost through the ages due to oral tradition variations and hand transcription pre-invention of the printing press. SM:Of course YOU are also a faith-son of God...He IS your Father too!!!

ST:Cal has nothing to do with this.

SM: Sure...Right! Please forgive me if this assertion strains my credulity past its limits.

Only Love AnyWay,

Steffani

From: Steffani M. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24251, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24234

 

Yes, Stephen...

He is.

Please explain why this is problematic for you?

Did you ever give any gifts to your children? Delegate to them tasks in the home as they became able to do the work you requested...and been pleased as punch when they did their best and a good job? Do you have any grandchildren yet? If you do...isn't it the most soul satisfying thing to be loved and respected by your children and grandchildren? Or if not yet...can you relate in terms of love for your own grandfather as the family patriarch? Of course this is a crude analogy compared to an eternal, immortal, and perfect family in all its relationships...

Only Love,

Steffani

Steffani,

It clearly say that the "Universal Father" is the Creator of "ALL THINGS AND BEINGS"

Stephen

From: Steffani M. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24252, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24234

 

Yes, Stephen...

He is.

Please explain why this is problematic for you?

Did you ever give any gifts to your children? Delegate to them tasks in the home as they became able to do the work you requested...and been pleased as punch when they did their best and a good job? Do you have any grandchildren yet? If you do...isn't it the most soul satisfying thing to be loved and respected by your children and grandchildren? Or if not yet...can you relate in terms of love for your own grandfather as the family patriarch? Of course this is a crude analogy compared to an eternal, immortal, and perfect family in all its relationships...

Only Love,

Steffani

Steffani,

It clearly say that the "Universal Father" is the Creator of "ALL THINGS AND BEINGS"

Stephen

From: Brother Dave A J. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24258, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24242


Sons of God

Dear Sister Carol H-F and all !

Thank you, Carol, for this service of continuing good inspiration and research to retain and add more Truth, and to thus help eliminate the many pervasive errors here.

I just want to add that, although both the Bible and our superior Urantia Book Revelation confirm (with specific qualifications) that our Creator Father Jesus Christ Michael is the "only-begotten Son"; still we find this of great significance: (a "mistake" by some Bible censors and rewriters in not catching this ?)

Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a Child is born, unto us A Son is given; and the Government shall be upon His Shoulder; and His Name shall be called: Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty GOD, The Everlasting (Eternal) FATHER, The Prince of Peace."

The above, obviously refers to our Master Jesus Christ Michael, and to none other ! And it is also correct that He Is A Son of GOD; one of 700,000 in Grand Universe Service; yet, this same Jesus is forever our ONLY Creator FATHER-SON Who MADE and still is MAKING us as we should Be ! Only He will, much later, give us the Credentials to make the Ascension-Realization of the Three Gods of the Original Paradise Trinity.

Divine Father-Son Love, True Spirit Light and Eternal Life,

Your Brother Dave

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24259, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24236

 

Ray,

Thanks...yes , thats the line.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24261, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24187


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

George,

<<<"By the Sons of God were the universes made.

This is an adaptation of the following verse in the book of Psalms: Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made...>>>

The Prophet states that the Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that the "universe" was by the "sons".

"Adaptation" dosen't begin to apply...the word "misquote" better applies. The concept is entirely different. I think that if you are going to quote someone...justice demands that you quote verbatim...and, by the way, give proper credit to the author. But then, the Divine Counselor is not about to make an appearance and stand the charges of plagerism, slander or blasphemy any time soon.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24263, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24251

 

Steffani,

<<>>

I already did...in my post entitled "Univrsal Father" = antichrist.

Stephen

From: Larry G. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24266, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study


A knowledgable faith

Rick Clair asks about the relationship between faith and knowing and whether the former leads to the latter.

I would say yes. Although faith is in the realm of personal spiritual experience and knowledge the realm of reason, faith is the precursor of knowing.

The master was the first to perfectly coordinate faith and knowledge, generating an upward/inward spiral that led to God-consciousness.

From the Urantia Papers: The zeal of faith is according to knowledge, and its strivings are the preludes to sublime peace.

Which says to me that when combined, faith takes on a more strident intensity while at the same time leading to a calmness that passes knowledge.

* * * * * * *

From: Mrs. Holly C. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24267, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24261


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Greetings Stephen,

I hope it is ok for me to assert the following in your e-conversation with George...if not, just delete this.

You wrote to George:

George,

<<<"By the Sons of God were the universes made.

This is an adaptation of the following verse in the book of Psalms: Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made...>>>

Holly here: What is in the UB is not an adaptation, but the original resurrected to correct the adaptations of old. Yes, the Sons of God made the Universes. These are local Universes made by the Creator Sons... the order of Michaels. These Universes are part of the Master Universes which make up the SuperUniverse. Have you read about this magnificence?

The use of the word LORD was manifested in the mind of the prophets and olden writers according to their perceptions and understanding of the day in which they lived (lords and ladies), and as it was difficult to discern the different deity personalities who are One with God, they applied this word to any of a number of high universe personalities, all the way to the Father Himself.

As you can see, after reading the "Talk With Nathaniel" it becomes apparent that over time it is used and understood loosely in many ways in the Bible, along with the name designation "God" and can be referring to many different personalities, including Jesus, or Caesar, but the original and true meaning of the real and original "word of the LORD", is the personality Eternal Son of the Original Holy Trinity. (God the Father = thought, God the Son = word, God the Holy Spirit = deed).

I thought You might like making a mental not while reading along in the Bible, that lots of "lord" references say things like the Lord of my Lord... etc. Whether this is pertinent to your perplexity, I don't know, but maybe helpful, maybe not.

You know the truth, though, for it is within you to know it...in due time. When you really seek and really want to know, you will. "Seek truth and you shall find it." This is different from fact seeking on a human level - that is much more laborious, but you will have something to physically support, as opposed to spirit value which eludes sometimes.

Stephen: The Prophet states that the Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that the "universe" was by the "sons".

Holly: This is the same as the UB teaches and is saying exactly the same thing. It in no way is contradictory, in error, false or otherwise misrepresented.

It is a theoretical moment in the theoretical beginning of eternity - how God gave of himself, everything. To understand this fully, I think it would be helpful to read the following - if you want to, but also to read the entire book...beginning with the Foreword as you pray for the fullness of discernment...but only if you want to. :-)

Many here are trying to help you. But acceptance is yours to decide.

F:III.14 As a time-space creature would view the origin and differentiation of Reality, the eternal and infinite I AM achieved Deity liberation from the fetters of unqualified infinity through the exercise of inherent and eternal free will, and this divorcement from unqualified infinity produced the first absolute divinity-tension. This tension of infinity differential is resolved by the Universal Absolute, which functions to unify and co-ordinate the dynamic infinity of Total Deity and the static infinity of the Unqualified Absolute.

F:III.15 In this original transaction the theoretical I AM achieved the realization of personality by becoming the Eternal Father of the Original Son simultaneously with becoming the Eternal Source of the Isle of Paradise. Coexistent with the differentiation of the Son from the Father, and in the presence of Paradise, there appeared the person of the Infinite Spirit and the central universe of Havona. With the appearance of coexistent personal Deity, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, the Father escaped, as a personality, from otherwise inevitable diffusion throughout the potential of Total Deity. Thenceforth it is only in Trinity association with his two Deity equals that the Father fills all Deity potential, while increasingly experiential Deity is being actualized on the divinity levels of Supremacy, Ultimacy, and Absoluteness.

Holly: In a nutshell and in simple human language, the Father, created all by beginning with the Original Trinity manifestation, but in reality, there is no beginning or ending in eternity, and so it is for the sake of time conditioned creatures to think of there having been a beginning. And as others have told you, the Father has given tasks to his many children, including you and me. We as lowly children of the Father have been intrusted with much...including creative minds which we are to learn to use to full capacity for good decision making, and not to allow them to be wasted in stagnation or degeneration, and definitely not in devolution.

F:III.16 The concept of the I AM is a philosophic concession which we make to the time-bound, space-fettered, finite mind of man, to the impossibility of creature comprehension of eternity existences -- nonbeginning, nonending realities and relationships. To the time-space creature, all things must have a beginning save only the ONE UNCAUSED -- the primeval cause of causes. Therefore do we conceptualize this philosophic value-level as the I AM, at the same time instructing all creatures that the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit are coeternal with the I AM; in other words, that there never was a time when the I AM was not the Father of the Son and, with him, of the Spirit.

Holly: OK... the Original Father, the Paradise Father, otherwise known as the One true God, Heavenly Father, Lord of Lords, Creator of the Heaven of Heavens, First Source and Center, the I AM among other names given by earthly creatures is being discovered through this theoretical moment. The prophet perceived it and spoke it in his own words...as you see them in the UB (not the Bible). But it is up to you to find out which came first and who is being blasphemous...I hope you discover it before you go onward toward something worse.

F:III.17 The Infinite is used to denote the fullness -- the finality -- implied by the primacy of the First Source and Center. The theoretical I AM is a creature-philosophic extension of the "infinity of will," but the Infinite is an actual value-level representing the eternity- intension of the true infinity of the absolute and unfettered free will of the Universal Father. This concept is sometimes designated the Father- Infinite.

F:III.18 Much of the confusion of all orders of beings, high and low, in their efforts to discover the Father-Infinite, is inherent in their limitations of comprehension. The absolute primacy of the Universal Father is not apparent on subinfinite levels; therefore is it probable that only the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit truly know the Father as an infinity; to all other personalities such a concept represents the exercise of faith.

Holly: That is as a beginning, and if you understand it, it is then easier to move ahead to the idea that the Paradise Father is the One true God, who did create everything, particularly in the mind of man as man can perceive him from the time-space limitations of viewpoint. The Father is One and is everywhere, living in all his created beings...who also create things, but God did it. It is not contradictory, but both...not either or.

And as one reads further along in this vast scheme, the Paradise Father, the First Source, the One True God, did along with his co-operative Trinity personalities, create Havona, and the Universe of Universes. This means there is a superUniverse full of other Universes... the other smaller, local Universes were and are created by his Creator Sons, by the order of Michaels. Jesus, Christ Michael created our local universe Nebadon.

Have you read about this astounding creation?

If so, then how is it that this makes you think about misquotes or Anti- Christs? Where do you get this logic? Why? What is your motive for asking? How can you be helped? Are you just making a statement for the sake or argument? Have you made up your mind? Are you just searching? If not, then you are in for a wonderful revelation!! You'll see so much more of the Father and love Him even more.

I told you. No misquote - original translation in front of you. If you can not yet accept this, then OK,. The choosing is up to you. I have no desire to debate, but there are lots of fun loving folks here who love to debate... so if that is what you want to do, then take it to the "Politics and Debates" topic and have at it! (Remember the Golden Rule) :-)

I only wish you well, Stephen, and hope that you find what you are looking for.

Bless you,

Holly

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24291, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24267


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

<<>>

By all means join in.

<<>> <<<"By the Sons of God were the universes made. This is an adaptation of the following verse in the book of Psalms: Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made...>>> <>

What I read is…the prophet said: "…" a quote with no credit given to the source. Plagiarism is the first charge against the Divine Counselor. I have looked up all the references Dwayne Faw and others have suggested, and find nowhere the words "sons of God". My conclusion is that the words have been deliberated altered but nevertheless presented as a quote. Seems the Divine Counselor has taken the liberty of putting his/her words into another’s mouth (unless someone can point out where this quote was taken from and to whom deserves credit). Would you not regard it as slander if I were to post an entry such as…and Holly said: "The Universal Father is the antichrist". I think that we can count the second charge against the Divine Counselor as slander. Now if my original proposition is valid that the Universal Father is an imposter and the Divine Counselor is trying to skirt the issue with vague language…then we can count the third charge as blasphemy against the Father…a most grievous sin. <>

The UB further undermines its mission to clear up the "great confusion respecting the meaning of such terms as God, divinity and Deity" by first defining the term God as "a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity" Then to further define personality as "a level of Deified reality"…such definitions open the door to the usurping of Father’s sovereignty, which in this case may be operative and supported by the Divine Counselor. If everybody is God, then who’s in charge?

<<>

God the system Father…God the constellation Father…God the major sector Father…God the Universal Father, or the Father of the universe government, in this case the chief of the Ancient of Days posing as Father perhaps. With such clarity of terms one can read just about anything into it they want.

<>

I’m trying to stick with what is ACTUALLY written as best I can.

<>

This is a "study" and as such, we are to look at what is actually written. Words have meaning and when constructed into sentences also have meaning. I am merely pointing out what I have read, and delving into the meaning of it, as I read it, exactly as it is written.

<>

The way I read it, the Father creates the "heavens and the heaven of heavens" and the sons create the universes (things and beings) but that is clearly contradicted by the first line of the first paragraph of the first paper. By the way I have read the UB several times, studied it for about 15 yrs, and have hosted study group in my home. I think discernment comes with a sincere examination of the facts without regard to unsubstantiated beliefs, even those of my own.

<>

Blind acceptance does not rise to the level of "discernment".

<>

Make note that in both of the previous excerpts the term "Universal Father" does not appear even once…are these excerpts referring to a different Father?

<>

Discernment involves "good decision making". But in order to make a good decision, one must be willing to examine the facts. <>

Again missing is the term "Universal Father".

<>

That is the purpose of this study. But because there is no Biblical verse to point to, it falls upon the author (Divine Counselor) (or anyone else) to come forward, and defend their quoting…but I don’t expect that to come anytime soon. Dwayne Faw has done an excellent job…I don’t think he overlooked this.

<>

I get the impression from this that the Infinite is the goal of the Universal Father’s unfettered free will. Such an interpretation leads me back to my original argument. <>

Consider the careful wording here and the inserting of a sentence, which would lead one to assume, on the surface, that it has to do with the preceding and following sentences. Careful wording may require careful reading…discernment.

<>

Yes I have read the UB.

<>

I am simply reading as it is written, and discussing it for "study" on this forum. Sometimes a sincere search for the truth can reveal things we didn’t expect or which we do not like. But truth is truth. One cannot make an error into a truth nor a truth into an error. But one can exercise discernment when seeking out the truth… that is all I purpose in this exercise. If I am found to be wrong, I will be willing to step up and eat humble pie (something I have tasted before, and am developing a taste for due to its wonderful power to transform and enlighten). I have put it out there, and we can discuss it…let’s see where the chips land and have the courage to accept whatever result comes from it.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24293, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24267


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Greetings Stephen, I hope it is ok for me to assert the following in your e- conversation with George...if not, just delete this. --- Stephen here:By all means join in. --- You wrote to George: George, "By the Sons of God were the universes made. This is an adaptation of the following verse in the book of Psalms: Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made... Holly here: What is in the UB is not an adaptation, but the original resurrected to correct the adaptations of old. Yes, the Sons of God made the Universes. These are local Universes made by the Creator Sons... the order of Michaels. These Universes are part of the Master Universes, which make up the SuperUniverse. Have you read about this magnificence? --- Stephen here: What I read is…the prophet said: "…" a quote with no credit given to the source. Plagiarism is the first charge against the Divine Counselor. I have looked up all the references Dwayne Faw and others have suggested, and find nowhere the words "sons of God". My conclusion is that the words have been deliberated altered but nevertheless presented as a quote. Seems the Divine Counselor has taken the liberty of putting his/her words into another’s mouth (unless someone can point out where this quote was taken from and to whom deserves credit). Would you not regard it as slander if I were to post an entry such as…and Holly said: "The Universal Father is the antichrist". I think that we can count the second charge against the Divine Counselor as slander. Now if my original proposition is valid that the Universal Father is an imposter and the Divine Counselor is trying to skirt the issue with vague language…then we can count the third charge as blasphemy against the Father…a most grievous sin. --- The use of the word LORD was manifested in the mind of the prophets and olden writers according to their perceptions and understanding of the day in which they lived (lords and ladies), and as it was difficult to discern the different deity personalities who are One with God, they applied this word to any of a number of high universe personalities, all the way to the Father Himself. --- Stephen here: The UB further undermines its mission to clear up the "great confusion respecting the meaning of such terms as God, divinity and Deity" by first defining the term God as "a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity" Then to further define personality as "a level of Deified reality"…such definitions open the door to the usurping of Father’s sovereignty, which in this case may be operative and supported by the Divine Counselor. If everybody is God, then who’s in charge? --- As you can see, after reading the "Talk With Nathaniel" it becomes apparent that over time it is used and understood loosely in many ways in the Bible, along with the name designation "God" and can be referring to many different personalities, including Jesus, or Caesar, but the original and true meaning of the real and original "word of the LORD", is the personality Eternal Son of the Original Holy Trinity. (God the Father = thought, God the Son = word, God the Holy Spirit = deed). --- Stephen here: God the system Father…God the constellation Father… God the major sector Father…God the Universal Father, or the Father of the universe government, in this case the chief of the Ancient of Days posing as Father perhaps. With such clarity of terms one can read just about anything into it they want. --- I thought You might like making a mental note while reading along in the Bible, that lots of "lord" references say things like the Lord of my Lord... etc. Whether this is pertinent to your perplexity, I don't know, but maybe helpful, maybe not. --- Stephen here: I’m trying to stick with what is ACTUALLY written as best I can. --- You know the truth, though, for it is within you to know it...in due time. When you really seek and really want to know, you will. "Seek truth and you shall find it." This is different from fact seeking on a human level - that is much more laborious, but you will have something to physically support, as opposed to spirit value which eludes sometimes. --- Stephen here: This is a "study" and as such, we are to look at what is actually written. Words have meaning and when constructed into sentences also have meaning. I am merely pointing out what I have read, and delving into the meaning of it, as I read it, exactly as it is written. --- Stephen: The Prophet states that the Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that the "universe" was by the "sons". --- Holly: This is the same as the UB teaches and is saying exactly the same thing. It in no way is contradictory, in error, false or otherwise misrepresented. It is a theoretical moment in the theoretical beginning of eternity - how God gave of himself, everything. To understand this fully, I think it would be helpful to read the following - if you want to, but also to read the entire book...beginning with the Foreword as you pray for the fullness of discernment...but only if you want to. :-) --- Stephen here: The way I read it, the Father creates the "heavens and the heaven of heavens" and the sons create the universes (things and beings) but that is clearly contradicted by the first line of the first paragraph of the first paper. By the way I have read the UB several times, studied it for about 15 yrs, and have hosted study group in my home. I think discernment comes with a sincere examination of the facts without regard to unsubstantiated beliefs, even those of my own. --- Many here are trying to help you. But acceptance is yours to decide. --- Stephen here: Blind acceptance does not rise to the level of "discernment". --- F:III.14 As a time-space creature would view the origin and differentiation of Reality, the eternal and infinite I AM achieved Deity liberation from the fetters of unqualified infinity through the exercise of inherent and eternal free will, and this divorcement from unqualified infinity produced the first absolute divinity-tension. This tension of infinity differential is resolved by the Universal Absolute, which functions to unify and co-ordinate the dynamic infinity of Total Deity and the static infinity of the Unqualified Absolute. F:III.15 In this original transaction the theoretical I AM achieved the realization of personality by becoming the Eternal Father of the Original Son simultaneously with becoming the Eternal Source of the Isle of Paradise. Coexistent with the differentiation of the Son from the Father, and in the presence of Paradise, there appeared the person of the Infinite Spirit and the central universe of Havona. With the appearance of coexistent personal Deity, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, the Father escaped, as a personality, from otherwise inevitable diffusion throughout the potential of Total Deity. Thenceforth it is only in Trinity association with his two Deity equals that the Father fills all Deity potential, while increasingly experiential Deity is being actualized on the divinity levels of Supremacy, Ultimacy, and Absoluteness. --- Stephen here: Make note that in both of the previous excerpts the term "Universal Father" does not appear even once…are these excerpts referring to a different Father? --- Holly: In a nutshell and in simple human language, the Father, created all by beginning with the Original Trinity manifestation, but in reality, there is no beginning or ending in eternity, and so it is for the sake of time conditioned creatures to think of there having been a beginning. And as others have told you, the Father has given tasks to his many children, including you and me. We as lowly children of the Father have been intrusted with much...including creative minds which we are to learn to use to full capacity for good decision making, and not to allow them to be wasted in stagnation or degeneration, and definitely not in devolution. --- Stephen here: Discernment involves "good decision making". But in order to make a good decision, one must be willing to examine the facts. --- F:III.16 The concept of the I AM is a philosophic concession which we make to the time-bound, space-fettered, finite mind of man, to the impossibility of creature comprehension of eternity existences - - nonbeginning, nonending realities and relationships. To the time- space creature, all things must have a beginning save only the ONE UNCAUSED -- the primeval cause of causes. Therefore do we conceptualize this philosophic value-level as the I AM, at the same time instructing all creatures that the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit are coeternal with the I AM; in other words, that there never was a time when the I AM was not the Father of the Son and, with him, of the Spirit. --- Stephen here: Again missing is the term "Universal Father". --- Holly: OK... the Original Father, the Paradise Father, otherwise known as the One true God, Heavenly Father, Lord of Lords, Creator of the Heaven of Heavens, First Source and Center, the I AM among other names given by earthly creatures is being discovered through this theoretical moment. The prophet perceived it and spoke it in his own words...as you see them in the UB (not the Bible). But it is up to you to find out which came first and who is being blasphemous...I hope you discover it before you go onward toward something worse. --- Stephen here: That is the purpose of this study. But because there is no Biblical verse to point to, it falls upon the author (Divine Counselor) (or anyone else) to come forward, and defend their quoting…but I don’t expect that to come anytime soon. Dwayne Faw has done an excellent job…I don’t think he overlooked this. --- F:III.17 The Infinite is used to denote the fullness -- the finality -- implied by the primacy of the First Source and Center. The theoretical I AM is a creature-philosophic extension of the "infinity of will," but the Infinite is an actual value-level representing the eternity- intension of the true infinity of the absolute and unfettered free will of the Universal Father. This concept is sometimes designated the Father- Infinite. --- Stephen here: I get the impression from this that the Infinite is the goal of the Universal Father’s unfettered free will. Such an interpretation leads me back to my original argument. --- F:III.18 Much of the confusion of all orders of beings, high and low, in their efforts to discover the Father-Infinite, is inherent in their limitations of comprehension. The absolute primacy of the Universal Father is not apparent on subinfinite levels; therefore is it probable that only the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit truly know the Father as an infinity; to all other personalities such a concept represents the exercise of faith. --- Stephen here: Consider the careful wording here and the inserting of a sentence, which would lead one to assume, on the surface, that it has to do with the preceding and following sentences. Careful wording may require careful reading…discernment. --- Holly: That is as a beginning, and if you understand it, it is then easier to move ahead to the idea that the Paradise Father is the One true God, who did create everything, particularly in the mind of man as man can perceive him from the time-space limitations of viewpoint. The Father is One and is everywhere, living in all his created beings...who also create things, but God did it. It is not contradictory, but both...not either or. And as one reads further along in this vast scheme, the Paradise Father, the First Source, the One True God, did along with his co- operative Trinity personalities, create Havona, and the Universe of Universes. This means there is a superUniverse full of other Universes... the other smaller, local Universes were and are created by his Creator Sons, by the order of Michaels. Jesus, Christ Michael created our local universe Nebadon. Have you read about this astounding creation? --- Stephen here: Yes I have read the UB. --- If so, then how is it that this makes you think about misquotes or Anti- Christs? Where do you get this logic? Why? What is your motive for asking? How can you be helped? Are you just making a statement for the sake or argument? Have you made up your mind? Are you just searching? If not, then you are in for a wonderful revelation!! You'll see so much more of the Father and love Him even more. I told you. No misquote - original translation in front of you. If you can not yet accept this, then OK,. The choosing is up to you. I have no desire to debate, but there are lots of fun loving folks here who love to debate... so if that is what you want to do, then take it to the "Politics and Debates" topic and have at it! (Remember the Golden Rule) :-) I only wish you well, Stephen, and hope that you find what you are looking for. --- Stephen here: I am simply reading as it is written, and discussing it for "study" on this forum. Sometimes a sincere search for the truth can reveal things we didn’t expect or which we do not like. But truth is truth. One cannot make an error into a truth nor a truth into an error. But one can exercise discernment when seeking out the truth…that is all I purpose in this exercise. If I am found to be wrong, I will be willing to step up and eat humble pie (something I have tasted before, and am developing a taste for due to its wonderful power to transform and enlighten). I have put it out there, and we can discuss it…let’s see where the chips land and have the courage to accept whatever result comes from it.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24294, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24293


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Tried to use a word processor off line. Will do better next time.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24295, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24294


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hope this is better.

--- Greetings Stephen, I hope it is ok for me to assert the following in your e- conversation with George...if not, just delete this. ---

By all means join in.

--- You wrote to George: George, "By the Sons of God were the universes made. This is an adaptation of the following verse in the book of Psalms: Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made... Holly here: What is in the UB is not an adaptation, but the original resurrected to correct the adaptations of old. Yes, the Sons of God made the Universes. These are local Universes made by the Creator Sons... the order of Michaels. These Universes are part of the Master Universes, which make up the SuperUniverse. Have you read about this magnificence? ---

Stephen here: What I read is…the prophet said: "…" a quote with no credit given to the source. Plagiarism is the first charge against the Divine Counselor. I have looked up all the references Dwayne Faw and others have suggested, and find nowhere the words "sons of God". My conclusion is that the words have been deliberated altered but nevertheless presented as a quote. Seems the Divine Counselor has taken the liberty of putting his/her words into another’s mouth (unless someone can point out where this quote was taken from and to whom deserves credit). Would you not regard it as slander if I were to post an entry such as…and Holly said: "The Universal Father is the antichrist". I think that we can count the second charge against the Divine Counselor as slander. Now if my original proposition is valid that the Universal Father is an imposter and the Divine Counselor is trying to skirt the issue with vague language…then we can count the third charge as blasphemy against the Father…a most grievous sin.

--- The use of the word LORD was manifested in the mind of the prophets and olden writers according to their perceptions and understanding of the day in which they lived (lords and ladies), and as it was difficult to discern the different deity personalities who are One with God, they applied this word to any of a number of high universe personalities, all the way to the Father Himself. ---

Stephen here: The UB further undermines its mission to clear up the "great confusion respecting the meaning of such terms as God, divinity and Deity" by first defining the term God as "a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity" Then to further define personality as "a level of Deified reality"…such definitions open the door to the usurping of Father’s sovereignty, which in this case may be operative and supported by the Divine Counselor. If everybody is God, then who’s in charge?

--- As you can see, after reading the "Talk With Nathaniel" it becomes apparent that over time it is used and understood loosely in many ways in the Bible, along with the name designation "God" and can be referring to many different personalities, including Jesus, or Caesar, but the original and true meaning of the real and original "word of the LORD", is the personality Eternal Son of the Original Holy Trinity. (God the Father = thought, God the Son = word, God the Holy Spirit = deed). ---

Stephen here: God the system Father…God the constellation Father… God the major sector Father…God the Universal Father, or the Father of the universe government, in this case the chief of the Ancient of Days posing as Father perhaps. With such clarity of terms one can read just about anything into it they want.

--- I thought You might like making a mental note while reading along in the Bible, that lots of "lord" references say things like the Lord of my Lord... etc. Whether this is pertinent to your perplexity, I don't know, but maybe helpful, maybe not. ---

Stephen here: I’m trying to stick with what is ACTUALLY written as best I can.

--- You know the truth, though, for it is within you to know it...in due time. When you really seek and really want to know, you will. "Seek truth and you shall find it." This is different from fact seeking on a human level - that is much more laborious, but you will have something to physically support, as opposed to spirit value which eludes sometimes. ---

Stephen here: This is a "study" and as such, we are to look at what is actually written. Words have meaning and when constructed into sentences also have meaning. I am merely pointing out what I have read, and delving into the meaning of it, as I read it, exactly as it is written.

--- Stephen: The Prophet states that the Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that the "universe" was by the "sons". Holly: This is the same as the UB teaches and is saying exactly the same thing. It in no way is contradictory, in error, false or otherwise misrepresented. It is a theoretical moment in the theoretical beginning of eternity - how God gave of himself, everything. To understand this fully, I think it would be helpful to read the following - if you want to, but also to read the entire book...beginning with the Foreword as you pray for the fullness of discernment...but only if you want to. :-) ---

Stephen here: The way I read it, the Father creates the "heavens and the heaven of heavens" and the sons create the universes (things and beings) but that is clearly contradicted by the first line of the first paragraph of the first paper. By the way I have read the UB several times, studied it for about 15 yrs, and have hosted study group in my home. I think discernment comes with a sincere examination of the facts without regard to unsubstantiated beliefs, even those of my own.

--- Many here are trying to help you. But acceptance is yours to decide. ---

Stephen here: Blind acceptance does not rise to the level of "discernment".

--- F:III.14 As a time-space creature would view the origin and differentiation of Reality, the eternal and infinite I AM achieved Deity liberation from the fetters of unqualified infinity through the exercise of inherent and eternal free will, and this divorcement from unqualified infinity produced the first absolute divinity-tension. This tension of infinity differential is resolved by the Universal Absolute, which functions to unify and co-ordinate the dynamic infinity of Total Deity and the static infinity of the Unqualified Absolute. F:III.15 In this original transaction the theoretical I AM achieved the realization of personality by becoming the Eternal Father of the Original Son simultaneously with becoming the Eternal Source of the Isle of Paradise. Coexistent with the differentiation of the Son from the Father, and in the presence of Paradise, there appeared the person of the Infinite Spirit and the central universe of Havona. With the appearance of coexistent personal Deity, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, the Father escaped, as a personality, from otherwise inevitable diffusion throughout the potential of Total Deity. Thenceforth it is only in Trinity association with his two Deity equals that the Father fills all Deity potential, while increasingly experiential Deity is being actualized on the divinity levels of Supremacy, Ultimacy, and Absoluteness. ---

Stephen here: Make note that in both of the previous excerpts the term "Universal Father" does not appear even once…are these excerpts referring to a different Father?

--- Holly: In a nutshell and in simple human language, the Father, created all by beginning with the Original Trinity manifestation, but in reality, there is no beginning or ending in eternity, and so it is for the sake of time conditioned creatures to think of there having been a beginning. And as others have told you, the Father has given tasks to his many children, including you and me. We as lowly children of the Father have been intrusted with much...including creative minds which we are to learn to use to full capacity for good decision making, and not to allow them to be wasted in stagnation or degeneration, and definitely not in devolution. ---

Stephen here: Discernment involves "good decision making". But in order to make a good decision, one must be willing to examine the facts.

--- F:III.16 The concept of the I AM is a philosophic concession which we make to the time-bound, space-fettered, finite mind of man, to the impossibility of creature comprehension of eternity existences - - nonbeginning, nonending realities and relationships. To the time- space creature, all things must have a beginning save only the ONE UNCAUSED -- the primeval cause of causes. Therefore do we conceptualize this philosophic value-level as the I AM, at the same time instructing all creatures that the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit are coeternal with the I AM; in other words, that there never was a time when the I AM was not the Father of the Son and, with him, of the Spirit. ---

Stephen here: Again missing is the term "Universal Father".

--- Holly: OK... the Original Father, the Paradise Father, otherwise known as the One true God, Heavenly Father, Lord of Lords, Creator of the Heaven of Heavens, First Source and Center, the I AM among other names given by earthly creatures is being discovered through this theoretical moment. The prophet perceived it and spoke it in his own words...as you see them in the UB (not the Bible). But it is up to you to find out which came first and who is being blasphemous...I hope you discover it before you go onward toward something worse. ---

Stephen here: That is the purpose of this study. But because there is no Biblical verse to point to, it falls upon the author (Divine Counselor) (or anyone else) to come forward, and defend their quoting…but I don’t expect that to come anytime soon. Dwayne Faw has done an excellent job…I don’t think he overlooked this.

--- F:III.17 The Infinite is used to denote the fullness -- the finality -- implied by the primacy of the First Source and Center. The theoretical I AM is a creature-philosophic extension of the "infinity of will," but the Infinite is an actual value-level representing the eternity- intension of the true infinity of the absolute and unfettered free will of the Universal Father. This concept is sometimes designated the Father- Infinite. ---

Stephen here: I get the impression from this that the Infinite is the goal of the Universal Father’s unfettered free will. Such an interpretation leads me back to my original argument.

--- F:III.18 Much of the confusion of all orders of beings, high and low, in their efforts to discover the Father-Infinite, is inherent in their limitations of comprehension. The absolute primacy of the Universal Father is not apparent on subinfinite levels; therefore is it probable that only the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit truly know the Father as an infinity; to all other personalities such a concept represents the exercise of faith. ---

Stephen here: Consider the careful wording here and the inserting of a sentence, which would lead one to assume, on the surface, that it has to do with the preceding and following sentences. Careful wording may require careful reading…discernment.

--- Holly: That is as a beginning, and if you understand it, it is then easier to move ahead to the idea that the Paradise Father is the One true God, who did create everything, particularly in the mind of man as man can perceive him from the time-space limitations of viewpoint. The Father is One and is everywhere, living in all his created beings...who also create things, but God did it. It is not contradictory, but both...not either or. And as one reads further along in this vast scheme, the Paradise Father, the First Source, the One True God, did along with his co- operative Trinity personalities, create Havona, and the Universe of Universes. This means there is a superUniverse full of other Universes... the other smaller, local Universes were and are created by his Creator Sons, by the order of Michaels. Jesus, Christ Michael created our local universe Nebadon. Have you read about this astounding creation? ---

Stephen here: Yes I have read the UB.

--- If so, then how is it that this makes you think about misquotes or Anti- Christs? Where do you get this logic? Why? What is your motive for asking? How can you be helped? Are you just making a statement for the sake or argument? Have you made up your mind? Are you just searching? If not, then you are in for a wonderful revelation!! You'll see so much more of the Father and love Him even more. I told you. No misquote - original translation in front of you. If you can not yet accept this, then OK,. The choosing is up to you. I have no desire to debate, but there are lots of fun loving folks here who love to debate... so if that is what you want to do, then take it to the "Politics and Debates" topic and have at it! (Remember the Golden Rule) :-) I only wish you well, Stephen, and hope that you find what you are looking for. ---

Stephen here: I am simply reading as it is written, and discussing it for "study" on this forum. Sometimes a sincere search for the truth can reveal things we didn’t expect or which we do not like. But truth is truth. One cannot make an error into a truth nor a truth into an error. But one can exercise discernment when seeking out the truth…that is all I purpose in this exercise. If I am found to be wrong, I will be willing to step up and eat humble pie (something I have tasted before, and am developing a taste for due to its wonderful power to transform and enlighten). I have put it out there, and we can discuss it…let’s see where the chips land and have the courage to accept whatever result comes from it.

Stephen

From: Carol F. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24299, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24295


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Stephen, I once met a man who insisted that the King James version of the Bible was the original version of the Bible and it was blasphemous to read any other versions. When I pointed out to him that the people who originally wrote the Bible wrote in Hebrew and Greek and the Bible was translated into the English language many years later he called me blasphemous too. He then refused to talk to me anymore.

This reminds me of your actions. You are arguing about a book that none of us wrote. Then you argue about Duane Faw’s Paramony quotes, which you should be discussing with him. Only he can explain why he chose to include passages in the book he wrote. You don’t have to read the Urantia Book at all. You are ultimately asking for an explanation for God, which none of us can give.

If you are on a faith journey to find God you don’t need any books. The UB is an educational text for those who want to learn more but it isn’t necessary for salvation, only faith is.

Carol

From: Mrs. Holly C. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24305, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24295


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi Stephen, and all reading along:

I have looked at the message postings on Stephen's resume page, and this is as far back as they go (unless some have been already committed to the older archives)

I am re-posting them here (at least the ones which seem to contain the main purpose) to help refresh the memory, and to represent the ideas and questions anew...maybe putting this all together will assist, maybe not...but here it is in case it is helpful to all to have these in one place.

If something is missing, please feel free to point it out, or recall it from the archives and add it to this (or delete that which isn't pertinent).

If I understand Stephen correctly, He thinks there is the possibility that the "Universal Father" is Anti-Christ and that a Divine Counselor should be charged with not only blasphemy, but also plagiarism. And all those conclusions based upon one paragraph, plus some information in the Bible and Dwane Faw's Paramony?

Please correct me if I am not understanding your 'study' correctly, Stephen.

Later, as my family settles down and I have some more quiet time to think, I will check back to see what your response and others might be.

Thank you for your patience, and I wish each of you a happy, joyful day on this the last day of the year.

Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stephen presented the following in msg. #24014:

Our Jesus Christ Michael in Paper 1

Mr. Jesusonean,

Does this mean that the "Universal Father" is only a "Son of God" and not God himself? Is this "Universal Father" one who is usurping the sovereignty of God? If the "prophet" is correct, then I would have to say that the "Universal Father" must be the antichrist.

Stephen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stephen, then you presented the following for study in msg. #24150:

Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi,

While I was thinking about my previous postings about the quote of the prophet in paper 1 paragraph 1, I had an idea...let me see how the quote reads in the Bible. So I grabbed my handy Paramony and looked it up. Second Kings 19:15 was the closest match. I first looked it up in the JPS translation. Well...to my surprise it read completely different. So, I looked it up in my King James version...also different. So I looked in the New Internatonal version...same result. Unless someone can produce a translation which quotes it verbatim as the UB does, I'd say it seems the "unchallengable authority" (pg32) of the Divine Counselor needs to be reevaluated. It apears to me that it is a deliberate misquote as it is so completely different from all of the translations of the Bible, and so it begs the question...why?

Stephen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And then 24155:

Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Matt,

<<>>

It does mention a "Prophet"...the mention of such points to an Old Testament Prophet as a most likely source...I think if it were extraterrestrial, it would be noted as such. To further support that premise...the UB says it has made use of human wisdom in its presentations, many of which have been well documented. The reference from 2Kings 19:15 comes from he work of Dwayne Faw in his book "The Paramony". The verses from 2Kings is similar to the one quoted in the UB, but with significant revision. Look them up and compare for yourself. I looked in three translations and found the same result...a misquote. If you can find any other written work which contains the quote verbatim, I would love to review it.

I too have only started posting recently. If it needs to be ripped...it needs to be ripped. In the search for truth don't be afraid to "burn all bridges behind"(pg2093B) you.

Stephen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And finally, Stephen presented the following for study in msg. #24205:

"Universal Father" = antichrist

PAPER 1 THE UNIVERSAL FATHER

"THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father- - one God in the place of many gods--enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.

The Prophet states that Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that "By the sons of God were the universes made". The Divine Counsleor states that the "Universal Father" "Created all THINGS AND BEINGS" (the universes). Does this mean that the "Universal Father" is only a "Son of God" and not God himself? Is this "Universal Father" one who is usurping the sovereignty of God? If the "prophet" is correct, then I would have to say that the "Universal Father" is an imposter to Father, and must be the antichrist.

Stephen

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Susan M. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24308, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24305


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Morning Holly, Stephen, All,

I woke up thinking about this thread, also, and would like to offer my thoughts. The words "had begun to dawn upon mankind" from the quote in question by Stephen cause this not to be a problem for me, personally. Those words say to me that the quote is not completely correct but that the prophets were merely beginning to catch on. This technique of revealing is used in other places in The Urantia Book, as well. With that in mind, I move forward. Does any one else read it this way and understand what I am offering ? ? ?

my two Sense, or perhaps solamente, pesos . . .

Susan

"THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father- - one God in the place of many gods--enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.

From: Steffani M. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24311, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24291


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

No Stephen...

Reading it as it is...is far from what you are doing!

You are twisting the meaning of words so far beyond recognition it is no wonder that you couldn't understand the UB...even if you did read it a time or two. Many people find it a challenging read...but seeing what is not there and not seeing what is...is more like Don Quixote tilting at windmills than trying to have a reasonable discussion.

A Divine Counselor, a perfect being who is of direct origin in the Paradise Trinity...has every right to use the words offered by God to any creature for the edification of fellow creatures. And so do you. One Source...it's all His. And so is the Divine Counselor...and you. As long as it is used to right purpose according to His Will.

In reality...the use of our language constraints as well as the mode of transmission made the communication tedious enough...and you want footnotes and references for human source 'credits' when the Bible...if not the UB...claims to be the inspired "word of God"? The fact that so many human concepts were "lifted" out of so many texts of those times that were selected for inclusion in the UB would have been impossible for any man living then to do without a computer... and no credits are given for those either(reference the work of Matthew Block:-) This validates the origin of the UB for me more than becomes a reason for consternation or a stumbling block to an open mind.

Even the identity of the bibical books human 'authors', Psalmists and prophets alike...is in many cases not accurately known or correctly attributed...scholars admit to uncertainty in many cases. You would benefit from additional research and serious bible study as well as a reading of the UB with a sincere effort to really understand it. The folks here on UBRON could help with that...

"God is not the author of confusion".(look that one up, guess who IS;-)

In the first place...when a prophet speaks it is the Spirit of God speaking through him...at least while uttering the prophecy... of course God can even speak through a jackass when it suited His Holy Purpose. (Balaam's ass;-)

(verification of this fact is available in both the Bible and the UB P.1584 p.2)

And by Father's own choice...He sends His Spirit to indwell the mortal minds of men. So each has a "God-cell" within...none can be God all by himself or even exist if separated from the whole Organism in which we all "live, move, and have our being." (That one is in the Bible and the UB also...you can look it up... maybe it will keep you busy and out of more trouble for a few moments;-)

The Universal Father...God...the First Source and Center of the existential Paradise Trinity...is ever and always ultimately in charge. If He is the CEO and primary shareholder and owner of the company, and he designates you as authorized to be a district manager, you answer to Him and are expected to have the best interests of the company...for the benefit of the customers who make you sucessful...and have given you a reason for being in business in the first place...as uppermost in your intentions.

The universes are a family owned and operated business...everyone is a shareholder...and also employed at a level according to his skills, abilities, experience, expertise and interests. If you decide to skim company funds for your own projects...and you get caught...well, it is your own brothers you were scamming and holding out on...and even though your Dad owns the company...He's their Dad too. You are then history if they say so if Father gives them permission to dispense with you as they wish...and at least...if their mercy is forthcoming and you accept their forgiveness you are fired from that particular office of responsibility. If your sadness at the eventual realization of the difficulty and turmoil doesn't bring you to the point of insanity or suicide...well, you can be transferred to a branch office to rebuild trust and eventually work yourself back up to greater responsibilities more in synch with your talents and abilities again.

Maybe you can "GET IT", now...ever played the game called "Chutes and Ladders"? Now think cosmically!

As you have quoted..."God is the Creator of all things and beings". So all belongs to Him and He may do as He pleases with His own Creation.

However, it pleased Him to grant you sovereign free will within the dimensional realm in which you presently live, use it wisely!!!

Only Love...Ever and Always,

Steffani

<<>>

By all means join in.

<<>> <<<"By the Sons of God were the universes made. This is an adaptation of the following verse in the book of Psalms: Psalm 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made...>>> <>

What I read is…the prophet said: "…" a quote with no credit given to the source. Plagiarism is the first charge against the Divine Counselor. I have looked up all the references Dwayne Faw and others have suggested, and find nowhere the words "sons of God". My conclusion is that the words have been deliberated altered but nevertheless presented as a quote. Seems the Divine Counselor has taken the liberty of putting his/her words into another’s mouth (unless someone can point out where this quote was taken from and to whom deserves credit). Would you not regard it as slander if I were to post an entry such as…and Holly said: "The Universal Father is the antichrist". I think that we can count the second charge against the Divine Counselor as slander. Now if my original proposition is valid that the Universal Father is an imposter and the Divine Counselor is trying to skirt the issue with vague language…then we can count the third charge as blasphemy against the Father…a most grievous sin. <>

The UB further undermines its mission to clear up the "great confusion respecting the meaning of such terms as God, divinity and Deity" by first defining the term God as "a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity" Then to further define personality as "a level of Deified reality"…such definitions open the door to the usurping of Father’s sovereignty, which in this case may be operative and supported by the Divine Counselor. If everybody is God, then who’s in charge?

<<>

God the system Father…God the constellation Father…God the major sector Father…God the Universal Father, or the Father of the universe government, in this case the chief of the Ancient of Days posing as Father perhaps. With such clarity of terms one can read just about anything into it they want.

<>

I’m trying to stick with what is ACTUALLY written as best I can.

<>

This is a "study" and as such, we are to look at what is actually written. Words have meaning and when constructed into sentences also have meaning. I am merely pointing out what I have read, and delving into the meaning of it, as I read it, exactly as it is written.

<>

The way I read it, the Father creates the "heavens and the heaven of heavens" and the sons create the universes (things and beings) but that is clearly contradicted by the first line of the first paragraph of the first paper. By the way I have read the UB several times, studied it for about 15 yrs, and have hosted study group in my home. I think discernment comes with a sincere examination of the facts without regard to unsubstantiated beliefs, even those of my own.

<>

Blind acceptance does not rise to the level of "discernment".

<>

Make note that in both of the previous excerpts the term "Universal Father" does not appear even once…are these excerpts referring to a different Father?

<>

Discernment involves "good decision making". But in order to make a good decision, one must be willing to examine the facts. <>

Again missing is the term "Universal Father".

<>

That is the purpose of this study. But because there is no Biblical verse to point to, it falls upon the author (Divine Counselor) (or anyone else) to come forward, and defend their quoting…but I don’t expect that to come anytime soon. Dwayne Faw has done an excellent job…I don’t think he overlooked this.

<>

I get the impression from this that the Infinite is the goal of the Universal Father’s unfettered free will. Such an interpretation leads me back to my original argument. <>

Consider the careful wording here and the inserting of a sentence, which would lead one to assume, on the surface, that it has to do with the preceding and following sentences. Careful wording may require careful reading…discernment.

<>

Yes I have read the UB.

<>

I am simply reading as it is written, and discussing it for "study" on this forum. Sometimes a sincere search for the truth can reveal things we didn’t expect or which we do not like. But truth is truth. One cannot make an error into a truth nor a truth into an error. But one can exercise discernment when seeking out the truth… that is all I purpose in this exercise. If I am found to be wrong, I will be willing to step up and eat humble pie (something I have tasted before, and am developing a taste for due to its wonderful power to transform and enlighten). I have put it out there, and we can discuss it…let’s see where the chips land and have the courage to accept whatever result comes from it.

Stephen

From: Peter H. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24314, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24181


My Fear: Stephen

Hi Rob!

YOU SAY:The source of ideation is the First Source whereas its derivative products are seen everywhere in many forms.

MY COMMENT: We are entirely capable of having our own ideas! But what your comment has to do with anything we have been talking about here is beyond me.

YOU SAY: The 'history' of which you speak is written by the victors of the material contests in which it is shaped, but the timelines of this inquiry end at its origin where the molten mists of mythology begin.

MY COMMENT: This is nothing more than denial and a refusal to look at known facts. By the way, you STILL haven't furnished me with the name of your (mythological?) contact commissioner who seems to have a different story than Dr. Sadler's.

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24317, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24299


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Carol,

Stephen, I once met a man who insisted that the King James version of the Bible was the original version of the Bible and it was blasphemous to read any other versions. When I pointed out to him that the people who originally wrote the Bible wrote in Hebrew and Greek and the Bible was translated into the English language many years later he called me blasphemous too. He then refused to talk to me anymore. ---

Stephen here: I have not relied upon only one translation of the Bible in my personal search of the references given by Dwayne Faw in his Paramony. All the translations are in agreement as to my points raised. If you can find a better suited biblical refernce than Mr. Faw has come up with, would be most interested to see what you have found.---

This reminds me of your actions. You are arguing about a book that none of us wrote. Then you argue about Duane Faw’s Paramony quotes, which you should be discussing with him. Only he can explain why he chose to include passages in the book he wrote. You don’t have to read the Urantia Book at all. You are ultimately asking for an explanation for God, which none of us can give. ---

Stephen here: this forum is a "study" of the Urantia Book and what it actually says. My posts are pursuant to that.---

If you are on a faith journey to find God you don’t need any books. The UB is an educational text for those who want to learn more but it isn’t necessary for salvation, only faith is.---

Stephen here: I found God long before I found the UB. The UB has problems, which I am merely bringing up for discussion. Let's stay on topic shall we.

Stephen

From: Mrs. Holly C. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24319, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24308


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi Susan,

Yes, I do. I wrote that in a previous post, with it highlighted.

:-)

But, I am still going to watch this thread and see what other tidbits pop up.

Time is short and so is this note... :-)

Love ya, Holly

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24320, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24308


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Susan,

I woke up thinking about this thread, also, and would like to offer my thoughts. The words "had begun to dawn upon mankind" from the quote in question by Stephen cause this not to be a problem for me, personally. Those words say to me that the quote is not completely correct but that the prophets were merely beginning to catch on. This technique of revealing is used in other places in The Urantia Book, as well. With that in mind, I move forward. Does any one else read it this way and understand what I am offering ? ? ?

my two Sense, or perhaps solamente, pesos . . .

Stephen here: The purpose of the UB as stated in the Forward is to clear up confusion...that being said...if the quote is not accurate, then how does this serve the purpose of the UB so stated in it's own Forward? And if, as others have suggested, the quote is accurate in contrast to the many translations of the Bible, we have the original subject of my thread to consider. If the prophet is quoted correctly, then we have to charge the "Universal Father" and the Divine Counselor with plagiurism of the prophet, and blasphemy against Father. If the quote is incorrect, we have to charge the Divine Counselor with plagiurism and slander of the prophet, and blasphemy against the Father. Either way it dosen't look good for paragraph 1 paper 1 and the "unchallengable authority" of the Divine Counselor.

Stephen

From: Mark U. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24322, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24320


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

My dear confused brother Stephen,

Stephen: If the prophet is quoted correctly, then we have to charge the "Universal Father" and the Divine Counselor with plagiurism of the prophet, and blasphemy against Father.

Mark: Rather, you would have to be charged with possessing very bad reasoning and exegetical skills. :)

Stephen: The UB has problems, which I am merely bringing up for discussion...

Mark: More honestly, you think the authors of the papers have problems, and you are then misreading the text accordingly.

When was the last time you and your friend 'Cal' talked? Tell him we're praying for him, and you also of course. Seriously.

Mark

From: Larry G. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24323, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


A few comments...

Gentlepeople...

Between Stephen T's confused nitpicking, Halbert's trying to shortcut the evolutionary process (no matter such a fine motive), Michael Ever's beautiful sophistry on reincarnation and Rob talking to Sunshine...the day is pregnant for discussion and to save a few electrons I would like to comment in one post:

To Stephen T: Your argument makes no sense to me, and I don't think it is me lacking in this case. Perhaps if you reworded it. Or perhaps if you answered those that have presented where you are likely being confused.

To Halbert: I like your idea. The timing, that is to say within our evolutionary process, is probably off. There is always room for noble ideals such as this. The misjudgment as to timing comes from a misreading of what it takes to face off the inertia within the status of our common consciousness. Go for it, but keep in mind that it will take twice as long and take twice as much energy as you envision. Have patience as you gather the forces of those kindred spirits that can see beyond boundries as cosmic citizens.

To Michael Ever: Your post really does contain a certain beauty, and also is threaded with enough truths to be compelling. The recognitions, the realizations and the understandings of going from finiteness to infinity through the experiential plan of ascension, I think, does not include a reincarnational design that can shortcut the process. Rob Crickett's explanation of why this false reincarnation idea has a long shelf life, to me is the best, and it may be in the archieves.

To Rob: I am sure you knew beforehand not only what kind of feedback you would get from such a message about Susan, but even the content of who would say what in reply. So I have a few questions:

What was your intent outside of the obvious contained within the message of Susan itself?

Were you instructed to forward this? If so, by whom? Did Susan's message popped out of the blue? Did you ask to be in contact with her? Was it direct or did you utlize your other celestial contacts to receive this message? Tell us about your considerations as to whether you should present this message to UBRON, knowing I'm sure the diquienting effect it would have.

Can you outline some process (such as Mark U brought forward) in which the dichotomy between what the Urantia Papers maintain about contact between the living and those that have passed to a different realm, and the fact of your message... which can be satisfied by the possibility of logic?

And welcome back Cris.

* * * * * * *

From: Mrs. Holly C. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24324, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24320


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi Stephen, Stephani, Susan and All:

Stephen wrote to Susan:

Stephen here: The purpose of the UB as stated in the Forward is to clear up confusion...

Holly: Clearing up confusion is not the whole purpose and you are misquoting this purpose as written in the Foreword (not Forward) - not only that but you miss the meaning of entirely. The purpose of the Foreword is to *assist* in PREVENTING confusion regarding the confusion in the "minds of the mortals of Urantia"..."of such terms as God, divinity, and deity".

In part: F:0.3 In the hope of facilitating comprehension and of preventing confusion on the part of every mortal who may peruse these papers, we deem it wise to present in this initial statement an outline of the meanings to be attached to numerous English words which are to be employed in designation of Deity and certain associated concepts of the things, meanings, and values of universal reality.

AND that is ONLY in part. The whole Foreword is important to read, and to understand in its proper context.

Stephen continues: that being said...if the quote is not accurate, then how does this serve the purpose of the UB so stated in it's own Forward?

Holly: Please define which kind of accuracy you refer to. If the quote is not accurate... you mean verbatim? Do you mean in concept? Do you mean in meaning? Can there be accuracy in translations? What kind? Can prophets say things that weren't recorded on paper but be known by higher deity? By recognizing the One true God, mankind was on the way to better (but still incomplete) understanding and on the way to lessening the confusion regarding "...such terms as God, divinity, and deity".

Stephen: And if, as others have suggested, the quote is accurate in contrast to the many translations of the Bible, we have the original subject of my thread to consider. If the prophet is quoted correctly, then we have to charge the "Universal Father" and the Divine Counselor with plagiurism of the prophet, and blasphemy against Father.

Holly: Why? Please explain the steps of logic you have employed, A+B+C=D style for me...along with providing your view of what accuracy really means.

Stephen: If the quote is incorrect, we have to charge the Divine Counselor with plagiurism and slander of the prophet, and blasphemy against the Father.

Holly: Why? Can such charges be had outside of men's laws? Is God or any other High Universe Personality subject to men's laws? Why do "we" HAVE to charge anyone with anything? What law says "we" do? Do "we" know the prophet who said this objects to the Divine Counselor's use of that information? Whose job is it to make a human legal charge against a Divine Counselor? How would one do such a thing? Can't we just ask God? Why? Why not?

Stephen: Either way it dosen't look good for paragraph 1 paper 1

Holly: Why not? Why? Looks great to me. Please explain.

Stephen: and the "unchallengable authority" of the Divine Counselor.

Holly: Again, why or why not?

Does the following apply in the logic and reasoning of the questions posed?

102:3.2 Religious speculation is inevitable but always detrimental; speculation invariably falsifies its object. Speculation tends to translate religion into something material or humanistic, and thus, while directly interfering with the clarity of logical thought, it indirectly causes religion to appear as a function of the temporal world, the very world with which it should everlastingly stand in contrast. Therefore will religion always be characterized by paradoxes, the paradoxes resulting from the absence of the experiential connection between the material and the spiritual levels of the universe -- morontia mota, the superphilosophic sensitivity for truth discernment and unity perception.

Happy Hunting and thinking to all,

Holly

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24326, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24323


A few comments...

Larry,

To Stephen T: Your argument makes no sense to me, and I don't think it is me lacking in this case. Perhaps if you reworded it. Or perhaps if you answered those that have presented where you are likely being confused. ---

Holly has put my agruments in one post as a convenience. I thank her for doing so. I believe I have answered most comments, but If I have overlooked anything important, I am willing to go back and review it.

Just a note here...Websters defines plagiarize as: use (words or ideas) of another as if your own.

The UB is clearly guilty of this...admitedly so. And this, from a Divine Counselor that claims "unchallengable authority".

When it is so easy to footnote quotes, we must ask, why has this not been done? Or if a quote has been modified, why not indicate it. After all, the mission as defined in the Forward is to clear up confusion.

Stephen

Stephen

From: Peter H. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24327, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Attack on The URANTIA Book

Hi All!

Has anyone besides me noticed that there is currently on UBRON an attack on the UBook being waged by at least three or four parties, most of whom apparently advocate some form of channelling?

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Steffani M. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24328, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24299


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Stephen,

Carol is giving an excellent example here of the type of mind that can be shut down to facts by a unwillingness to reconsider its' belief system and comfort zone that it has been taught is "the truth" is erroneous.

UB: P.1005 p.3

The study of human religion is the examination of the fossil-bearing social strata of past ages. The mores of the anthropomorphic gods are a truthful reflection of the morals of the men who first conceived such dieties. Ancient religions and mythology faithfully portray the beliefs and traditions of peoples long since lost in obscurity. These olden cult practices persist alongside newer economic customs and social evolutions and, of course, appear grossly inconsistent. The remnants of the cult present a true picture of the racial religions of the past. Always remember, the cults are formed, not to discover truth, but rather to promulgate their creeds.

An open mind is going to be able to integrate new and valid information into the framework of faith adjusting beliefs on the basis of new information in a reasonable manner. Even so, as Paul the Apostle pointed out...it is impossible to comprehend spiritual realities with the intellectual mortal mind. Without the aid of the Spirit of Truth/Holy Spirit and the Thought Adjuster understanding the things of God or coming to know Him directly would remain impossible. Clue: Romans Ch.8 (the entire chapter is recommended ;-) You may wish to consider Jesus words in the UB: P.1641 p.4 & P.1711 p.3

There are often times when the meaning of words and nuances of written language are discerned by context and usage as well. (If you've tried to read Chaucer and Beowulf or even bibical King's English this premise becomes evident;-)

As the Divine Counselor you have so unfairly maligned points out to us finite pea-brained lowliest of sentient will creatures...I'm one too! (don't it get your ole' ego hackles riled up when I say this, huh?;-)

UB: P.33 p.3

In all our efforts to enlarge and spiritualize the human concept of God, we are tremendously handicapped by the limited capacity of the mortal mind. We are also seriously handicapped in the execution of our assignment by the limitations of language and by the poverty of material that can be utilized for purposes of illustration or comparison in our efforts to portray divine values and to present spiritual meanings to the finite, mortal mind of man. All our efforts to enlarge the human concept of God would be well-nigh futile except for the fact that the mortal mind is indwelt by the bestowed Adjuster of the Universal Father and is pervaded by the Truth Spirit of the Creator Son. Depending, therefore, on the presence of these divine spirits within the heart of man for assistance in the enlargement of the concept of God, I CHEERFULLY undertake the execution of my mandate to attempt the further portrayal of the nature of God to the mind of man.

Duane Faw could probably point you in the direction of the "complaint department"...but I doubt that you are really ready to want to "go there" yet!

Only Love,

Steffani

Stephen, I once met a man who insisted that the King James version of the Bible was the original version of the Bible and it was blasphemous to read any other versions. When I pointed out to him that the people who originally wrote the Bible wrote in Hebrew and Greek and the Bible was translated into the English language many years later he called me blasphemous too. He then refused to talk to me anymore.

This reminds me of your actions. You are arguing about a book that none of us wrote. Then you argue about Duane Faw’s Paramony quotes, which you should be discussing with him. Only he can explain why he chose to include passages in the book he wrote. You don’t have to read the Urantia Book at all. You are ultimately asking for an explanation for God, which none of us can give.

If you are on a faith journey to find God you don’t need any books. The UB is an educational text for those who want to learn more but it isn’t necessary for salvation, only faith is.

Carol

From: Phil G. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24329, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24327


Attack on The URANTIA Book

Peter:

Don't know that I would characterize it as an attack. (Really haven't followed the action too closely.)

However, elaborating inconsistencies in the UB text could make inconsistencies in various channeled messages seem less objectionable. Call it 'revelatory equivalency.'

Phil G.

From: Carol F. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24331, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24317


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Stephen, are you not getting what everyone is telling you?

The rules of man don't apply here because this isn't man made. You are quoting Webster's Dictionary like it matters. So what. Webster didn't write the Urantia Book.

Trying to figure out where undocumented quotes come from doesn't have anything to do with a study of the Urantia papers. You just went on and on about how the quotes you are complaining about don't come from the Bible and then you accuse the authors of plagiarism.

Think about this for a minute. If you are accusing someone of plagiarism (and the Bible is past copyright protection anyway) you have to give proof where the plagiarism comes from. you just argued yourself into a black hole. Get on with your life and do some real study. As I mentioned to Ray, if you want to work your brain let's talk about this (it is directly applicable to what you are doing, by the way):

P.555 - §1 Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring--these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair's turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle--these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the

From: Larry G. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24335, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study


Stephen T's logic

Dear Stephen...

I present your original questioning...which does not include the fog-bound issues you bring forth about not being able to find verbatim language of the prophet and plagiarism potentials.

PAPER 1 THE UNIVERSAL FATHER "THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father- - one God in the place of many gods--enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.

Stephen T then states: The Prophet states that Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that "By the sons of God were the universes made". The Divine Counsleor states that the "Universal Father" "Created all THINGS AND BEINGS" (the universes). Does this mean that the "Universal Father" is only a "Son of God" and not God himself? Is this "Universal Father" one who is usurping the sovereignty of God? If the "prophet" is correct, then I would have to say that the "Universal Father" is an imposter to Father, and must be the antichrist.

I begin by noting that the 'heaven of heavens' is not the same as the universes (what I would term the realms of time/space. I believe that equating the two is the beginning of your quandry.

Steffani gave you an anology by which you could understand the difference between these two. If I might expand on that anology, lets say that your great-great-grandfather created the heaven of heavens, and among all those 'hosts' was the Sons of God, your great-grandfather who with others created the universes, including your grandfather who created your father out of which you appear.

In a very real sense 'all things and beings' come from our great-great-grandfather, the Universal Father.

Stephen then asks: Does this mean that the "Universal Father" is only a "Son of God" and not God himself?

As others have pointed out to you...no, that not what it means. Because you equate heaven of heavens with the universes you have equated the Universal Father as only a Son of God.

Stephen continues: Is this "Universal Father" one who is usurping the sovereignty of God?

No. The Universal Father is God.

With an enormous false leap of logic Stephen then says: If the "prophet" is correct, then I would have to say that the "Universal Father" is an imposter to Father, and must be the antichrist.

The prophet was correct and so the revelators used his words to denote that the truth of the concept of the Universal Father was beginning to dawn on mankind. We are still waiting for it to dawn on

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24336, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24291


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi Stephen!

You ask who's in charge? My take on the answer: All are! You're in charge of your domain, I'm in charge of mine. Each part of the Whole is in charge of themself, for that is anyone's and everyone's ONLY domain -- their self.

When we've all achieved maximization of our best potentials, which is what Jesus did with his, we align with our Source. And in those moments we can know God has returned to earth, for we are the proof of it. Single minded purpose, the dedication to BEING Love, that's the ticket.

The differences between level of God, come from how far back to Source one's Self-knowledge reaches. This is the way I'm able to understand and apply universal truths. Does it help things make more sense for you?

Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR! RhonnaLeigh ...................................

Stephen here: The UB further undermines its mission to clear up the "great confusion respecting the meaning of such terms as God, divinity and Deity" by first defining the term God as "a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity" Then to further define personality as "a level of Deified reality"…such definitions open the door to the usurping of Father’s sovereignty, which in this case may be operative and supported by the Divine Counselor. If everybody is God, then who’s in charge?

From: Steffani M. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24342, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24327


Attack on The URANTIA Book

No Peter...I haven't.

The 2 launchers of efforts to discredit the Urantia Book...Mr. Price and Mr. Thor-burn...are associates of 'Mr. Caligastia'...whose attitudes towards "channeling" are virtually identical to yours in my observation of statements by both of you on that subject over the past 2 years. In fact, I wondered whether you guys get together to compare notes.

I have noticed that there are other folks who post here who are able to think for themselves...and trust their personal relationship with God sufficiently to accept their own personal religious experiences enough to not require the Urantia Book...while evidently appreciative of it, to be held to ridiculous standards of factual, bibical inerrancy doctrines.

Only Love Anyway,

Steffani

Hi All!

Has anyone besides me noticed that there is currently on UBRON an attack on the UBook being waged by at least three or four parties, most of whom apparently advocate some form of channelling?

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24344, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24324


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Holly,

---Stephen here: The purpose of the UB as stated in the Foreward is to clear up confusion...

Holly: Clearing up confusion is not the whole purpose and you are misquoting this purpose as written in the Foreword (not Forward) - not only that but you miss the meaning of entirely. The purpose of the Foreword is to *assist* in PREVENTING confusion regarding the confusion in the "minds of the mortals of Urantia"..."of such terms as God, divinity, and deity".

In part: F:0.3 In the hope of facilitating comprehension and of preventing confusion on the part of every mortal who may peruse these papers, we deem it wise to present in this initial statement an outline of the meanings to be attached to numerous English words which are to be employed in designation of Deity and certain associated concepts of the things, meanings, and values of universal reality.---

Stephen here: Thank you for correcting my spelling, I shall bear it in mind in the future when spelling "foreword". The use of different terms for God in the papers to create a "different definition on each personal level of Diety function" alerts us to the need to pay special attention to when and where a particular term is used...that these terms are not subject to random interchangability. I section 2 of the Foreward it ays that ne of the levels of "diviity expression" is "personal - as in the evolutionary experience of CREATED and procreated beings", then later on in the section it speaks of the "person of the Universal Father". This supports my argument that the "Universal Father" is not one and the same as Father, but is an imposter by positing himself in the role of Father. According to the Foreward, the term od is unreliable in he designation of a particular Deity level of function because i can include any such level. This make the term God of particular interest when it is used and also reguires particular attention because of its vagueness. The gnostics have a term for Father which is "the Incorruptibility" or "the Entirety"---

---AND that is ONLY in part. The whole Foreword is important to read, and to understand in its proper context.

Stephen continues: that being said...if the quote is not accurate, then how does this serve the purpose of the UB so stated in it's own Foreward? ---

Stephen here: Paper 1 paragrah 1 says that the "Universal Father is the God of ALL creation". the Prophet say that "by the sons of God were the universes made" This simply does not clear up confusion, now does it?---

---Holly: Please define which kind of accuracy you refer to. If the quote is not accurate... you mean verbatim? Do you mean in concept? Do you mean in meaning? Can there be accuracy in translations? What kind? Can prophets say things that weren't recorded on paper but be known by higher deity? By recognizing the One true God, mankind was on the way to better (but still incomplete) understanding and on the way to lessening the confusion regarding "...such terms as God, divinity, and deity". ---

Stephen here: Accuracy refers to whether or not the quote was the actual words of the prophet. As to the concept or the meaning... it is different than the Biblical references given by Dwayne Faw. The translations all seem to agree regarding accuracy or concept and meaning. If higher Deity has a different quote or disputes the biblical one, to which there is a clear connection, then it should be so declared and credit given...which it does not. The terms such as God, Deity, and Divnity are far more confusing as defined by the UB than they are in the Bible...the term God can mean just about anything or anyone as defined in the Foreword.---

---Stephen: And if, as others have suggested, the quote is accurate in contrast to the many translations of the Bible, we have the original subject of my thread to consider. If the prophet is quoted correctly, then we have to charge the "Universal Father" and the Divine Counselor with plagiurism of the prophet, and blasphemy against Father.

Holly: Why? Please explain the steps of logic you have employed, A+B+C=D style for me...along with providing your view of what accuracy really means.---

Stephen here: A, the UB clearly admits plagiarism ("Thou shall not bear false witness") a grievous sin. B, The Prophet says "by the sons of God were the universes made" (not supported by scripture) C, The Divine Counselor calls the "Universal Father" the "First Source and Center of all things and beings" (the universes) going on to say the "truth of the Universal Father began to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said" meanin that the words of the Prphet refer to the "niversal Father". D, Things and beings are the stuff of the universes that the prophet (according to the Divine Counselor) declares are the work of the sons of God. E, Therefore the Universal Father is a son of God, and not the Father which the prophet states clearly is the creator of the "heavens and the heaven of heavens" F, If the Divine Counselor has misquoted the Prophet, then the unchallengable authority" of the Divine Counselor is in serious question. G, If the Divine Counselor deliberately misquoted the Prophet then the issue of slander is applicable. H, As the above mentioned problems distort and or confuse regarding the true nature of Father, then the charge of blasphemy applies.---

---Stephen: If the quote is incorrect, we have to charge the Divine Counselor with plagiurism and slander of the prophet, and blasphemy against the Father.

Holly: Why? Can such charges be had outside of men's laws? Is God or any other High Universe Personality subject to men's laws? Why do "we" HAVE to charge anyone with anything? What law says "we" do? Do "we" know the prophet who said this objects to the Divine Counselor's use of that information? Whose job is it to make a human legal charge against a Divine Counselor? How would one do such a thing? Can't we just ask God? Why? Why not? ---

Stephen here: Then I refer you to God's law: "Thou shalt not bear false witness". Since the Divine Counselor is not about to come forward anytime soon, I guess it is up to us to examine the evidence in absentia. Ask God, but don't ignore the facts before you either.---

---Stephen: Either way it dosen't look good for paragraph 1 paper 1

Holly: Why not? Why? Looks great to me. Please explain.

Stephen: and the "unchallengable authority" of the Divine Counselor.

Holly: Again, why or why not?

Does the following apply in the logic and reasoning of the questions posed?

102:3.2 Religious speculation is inevitable but always detrimental; speculation invariably falsifies its object. Speculation tends to translate religion into something material or humanistic, and thus, while directly interfering with the clarity of logical thought, it indirectly causes religion to appear as a function of the temporal world, the very world with which it should everlastingly stand in contrast. Therefore will religion always be characterized by paradoxes, the paradoxes resulting from the absence of the experiential connection between the material and the spiritual levels of the universe -- morontia mota, the superphilosophic sensitivity for truth discernment and unity perception. ---

Stephen here: My translation...Don't think, just believe, because if you think, you will only confuse yourself so don't bother. and if you choose to think, you will make a material religion which will interfere with your logical thinking. (???) It goes on to say that just the experience of the spiritual is valid...that is, as long as the mind is not working and the eyes are closed or else you will encounter paradoxes.---

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24346, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24335


Stephen T's logic

Larry,

---I begin by noting that the 'heaven of heavens' is not the same as the universes (what I would term the realms of time/space. I believe that equating the two is the beginning of your quandry. ---

The point I was trying to make is that the "heavens and the heaven of heavens" is NOT the same as the "universes" (things and beings). Not the other way around.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24347, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24336


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

RhonnaLeigh,

By your logic, anarchy should prevail, and all should assume themselves as an imposter for God until they have attained the highest level of the antichrist, and then, and only then, will the truth be revealed. But by then judgement of your chosen path will be upon you, won't it.

Stephen

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24348, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24347


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi again Stephen,

No, by my logic and experience, Love prevails. It is supreme justice, not anarchy. Love is the one law determining what has continued Life. And each, as they ARE Love, discover this proportionately. Greater experience of it always produces higher levels of self-government.

Good luck in your quest, and Happy New Year :)

Love, RhonnaLeigh

From: Mrs. Holly C. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24349, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24344


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi Stephen and Everyone Reading along:

I do wish you would look at the wider view Stephen. I have had all my quest-ions answered by the others and simply by looking over the quote. I'm sorry you have not found the same satisfaction.

I have read the UB three times through start to finish, and studied it for close to four years. Why is it that I can understand the Universal Father = God the Paradise Father and you can't?

Why can I understand that a Divine Counselor as well as a human being can say "the prophet said thus and such" in the context of using it as an example to assist in making a point, and not get accused of plagiarism? Nobody is bound in such an instance to reference anything. Stephen, you are the only one demanding a more exact reference.

You may be confused by the definitions in the Foreword, but I am not. If you were really that confused, you would sincerely desire to understand the different nomers for God and Deity, and god and deity...if you DO understand them, then why don't you list them out for the group?

Besides, if you look at your own dictionary definition of plagiarism, it says that the Divine Counselor would have had to use the statement as his own. He does not. He uses it as an example of the growing concepts of God in the mind of man. He credits the prophet for what the prophet said.

You are just going around and around with your questions, which, I am beginning to think aren't designed to be thinking at all, but simply just to cause a ruckus...maybe for the fun of it, maybe for other reasons...hmmmmmm

For instance, what if I said:

"You said that you had a UB study group and have had a UB for 15 years." From this statement and your answers to the questions given by the listees (including mine) I could evilly point the finger at you and say, no, you haven't read it, and you don't understand it. Further what if I said, that because of your 'position' I now know you are a devil worshiper holding classes trying to prove that the UB is of the devil in those classes. By ignoring reality, and confusing the issue of the truth, you are in league with that kind of thinking."

What if I said you further exposed yourself because "The UB doesn't give a list of sins, but rather a list that was given to the peoples of another age who were unable to think things through at the advanced level of the UB - as a part of the evolutionary growth toward greater self control and spiritual understanding? And what if I went on to say that because you insist you've read this book and had study groups and say that the UB says "Thou Shall Not Bear False Witness" as if the UB says so, that I am further able to conclude that you are misquoting the UB again, and committing slander. And, what if I further stated that the Fourth Epochal Revelation, replaced all those grievous sins outlined in Old Testament Commandments, with Jesus's two commandments, further proving you have neither read the UB nor the Bible, and therefore are unable to conduct a study of either." What if?

Is this right, sound and good logic and reasoning about you and your writings or your motives? Is it fair for me to make such an assessment about you and what you've posed here?

If sothen I suppose I could by your kind of thinking and reasoning say that you are a rebel and should be on a prison world with Lucifer. Perhaps I could even conclude that it is you who is the Anti-Christ because you failed to adhere to Christ's commandments...along with the Olden Commands not to bear false witness...which is what you have done with the UB...under the guise of 'study' What if I did that? Wouldn't I be full of **&*^(*^*^(*&%^(%^)?????

Do you see the false logic (ill-logic) which has led your questions through this study topic?

In taking all those things out of context, (waaayy out of context) plus not really thinking through the things presented to you to study and read through, you show me that you are not really sincere in this study.

Is this a correct conclusion?

Furthermore, to just jump in accuse me of not thinking is not studying, but rather getting off the track by ignoring the challenge TO think about the contributions of the others.

The truth never suffers honest examination. Can we all do that? I am trying to ... are you, Stephen?

And what if I also said I noticed you did NOT say YOU yourself were sincere in your study? You only referenced sincerity, but did not profess your own. What do we say then?

Like Susan, I am satisfied with the wonderful work of the listees to answer your questions, and there are many here who would continue to labor with you if you were honestly trying...

If you are sincere, you really, really need to start at the start and STUDY the Foreword carefully, then move ahead through the book with your spiritual eyes... and if not, then get off this study forum and go over to "Debates", please.

There is such a thing as false logic, the word for it is illogic. For what its worth, your humble pie is already baked and ready to be sliced up, but hey, I've eaten my share before too...don't we all sometimes?

Bless you, Stephen and may you find what you seek.

Holly

From: Brother Dave A J. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24362, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24327


Attack on The URANTIA Book

Dear Brother Peter Holley and all sincere Urantia Book believers here,

I have seen attacks of various types on this Urantia Book for the whole period of about 25 years that I have fully believed it to be just as it so states. From the many early histories given by the Persons involved with this UBk, there have been a few dissenters back in the 1940's if not earlier.

Of all the attacks here presently, the ones by the "TeaM", "T/R", or "channelers" are probably the most coordinated. They do have their own internet discussion groups; but they want to come in here and proselytize or convert us to thinking this stuff is real ! Many of them also are trying to bring in a "reincarnation" belief which is also totally false.

Sister Carol HF has just stated she may leave for another group; I hope she sees the value of doing both ... which includes staying here SOME to try to augment the Light of Truth level here.

Benighted brother Steven R.T., one of the detractors now posting here, is actually trying to run away from the Sovereignty of Jesus as our True Universe God and who is always totally One with the Primal and Final Universal Father- Infinite on Paradise. Maybe he needs more time to chase his tail, so to speak, until he realizes that he cannot discern this Father-Infinite by himself and without Jesus. He is trying the humanly impossible task of being a "Godian" without being a Jesusonian, as a few others here are also trying. You in darkness are welcome to turn to Jesus and Know His full Paradise peace at any time !

Sisters RhonnaLeigh and DebraLee should both RELAX; I do not rush to attack Persons who are just still prone to some errors in mind. A few more full perusals of our UBk could do wonders to assist in this enlightenment, if they are such seekers in Spirit and in Truth, knowingly or unknowingly.

Here is a progress report, from my experiences: about 10 years ago (12?) there were only two UBk believers who took on this new "channeling" cult; I was one of them to some degree, another brilliant Brother, who still refuses to come in here anymore, did a supernal and superb job in straightening them out and keeping hundreds or more from thinking about following the few "T/R" "ring-leaders".

Now, there are many more, even still here, who will stand firm in the Light of Truth and denounce all these errors ! Thank you my Brothers and Sisters !

Brothers Peter H., Rick Clair, and all here interested; let us continue discussing soon about our years 2002 and on, GOALS in and with this New religion and New Revelation of JESUS. (Not "Namaste Nebadonia" or whatever!) Forming different sowing circles at this point does seem to have more merits than demerits ... I am also looking at these possibilities in doing our Father's will in the Mission of Truth to each and to all who will listen and join in the Real Work.

As I have often stated for many years, when you prematurely advertise the UBk to the general populace, badly translate it, and put it in public libraries, you will get many types too soon not yet ready for this Strong Light that is potentially revolutionary among the inept impatients, and those who think that "Urantia Movement" is a religion and not an mere astronomical fact.

What does this still dark and still evil world need most now ?

It is not millions more Urantia Books dumped out indiscriminately !

Preach and teach Divine-Human Jesusonian Rights ! You can Capitalize the words: Personality, Human, Man, Woman and Child ...at least ! And you can do even better than that in Spirit and in Truth ! Share the Gospel that each and every Person is now a Beloved Son of God with a God- given Absolutely Unique PerSonality ! (PerDaughterality, will not make it, sad to say, LOL) Sister RhonnaLeigh is getting pretty right on that issue of Sacred Personality of each and all ! She needs more patience to realize it will take many thousands more years to be known worldwide !

If any want to work for a one-world Govt, I think there are already some larger groups doing that. How will they fit in under the Trinity Government of All Reality IF we are afraid to teach basic Theology of God and Jesus and Spirit and Trinity, etc ? Sad .... Too many weaklings?

Great posts lately by Sister Holly and Brother Rick Clair also ! And they stand up in Truth with conviction and courage, and are given in spiritually nice ways ! Holly now knows when she is being deceived and says so. I usually can read one's intent from their first post here; sadly, I am seldom wrong, but I do remain spiritually optimistic also with much hard-earned street-smarts and easy mountain views.

OK, that now covers all I have to share on the last 50 or more posts, LOL

Let's get going on study and more united clarity here in our Personal and GroupS GOALS as we peruse as a group of about 12 or so, all of the matchless and transforming Life and Teachings of Our Son of Man and God Jesus Christ Michael ! (yes, read that two or more ways and you then know the One Way too, as well as being somewhat better in elucidating the Trinity mystery.)

Merry New Year and Happy Eternity of Eternities,

Love, Light and Life,

Your Brother Dave

 

Peter H. wrote:

Hi All!

Has anyone besides me noticed that there is currently on UBRON an attack on the UBook being waged by at least three or four parties, most of whom apparently advocate some form of channelling?

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Carol F. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24365, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24361


communications; disfellowshiping

Steffani, this is what Rob wrote, which doesn’t seem to follow your description: "It was only recently that during my regular visits with Father that the ‘founder’ of this forum whom we know as 'Sunshine' was ‘given authorization’ to make a simple statement. It was in effect, a greeting, with love, "recognizing the delight she held for us all in observing our collective movement toward the objective she had sought" .."

This is what the Urantia Book teaches:

P.1646 Jesus further explained to his apostles that the spirits of departed human beings do not come back to the world of their origin to communicate with their living fellows. Only after the passing of a dispensational age would it be possible for the advancing spirit of mortal man to return to earth and then only in exceptional cases and as a part of the spiritual administration of the planet.

What Rob is presenting is a communication of a departed human to her living fellows. Your explanation of how it may happen reinforces my point, that the means don’t qualify the communication.

What Rob has participated in is directly denying the teachings of Jesus- that this type of communication is not to be done. I am in complete agreement with Dave that he should be disfellowshiped from a forum designed to support the teachings of the Urantia Papers, not deny them.

Carol

From: Larry G. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24366, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study


Stephen T's new logic

Dear Stephen...

You are a piece of work.

So we both agree that heaven of heavens and universes are two different things, the former created by the Universal Father and the latter by the Sons of God, or which could be equally defined as the Sons of the Universal Father. I will assume you agree with this equal definition but I'm sure you'll let me know if you don't.

The Universal Father by the creation of His Sons can be said to have created 'all things and beings,' even though it is the Sons themselves which created the universes (all things and beings) because the Sons created time/space with the Universal Father's power, patterns and mandates.

More accurately, the Universal Father created all things and beings THROUGH the Sons of the Universal Father. No Sons. No universes.

How could the Universal Father (God) usurp Himself as you asked?

How could the Universal Father be only a 'Son of God' as you question when he created these Sons.

Of course, if you'd have just glanced at the anology you might have understood what the prophet was really saying instead of cruelly twisting upon a hair's turning how the Father could not have created all things and beings while at the same time these were created by the Sons of the Father.

I stand in awe on how we might finely masticate this further upon your reply.

* * * * * * *

From: Doug H. 12/31/01
Msg. No: 24371, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials


Disfellowship Who?

Hello Dave S. and friends:

When I read your post about Disfellowshipping Rob Davis I actually thought that I was riding through Amish country in a black buggy.

Are you kidding or what? What a joke and a not very nice one at that, Dave.

Who do you think you are? Shunning and Disfellowship action is usually done by the voting of the Elders of the Church. UBRON is not a church.

I suppose you consider yourself a self appointed Elder of UBRON? Get real, Dave!

There is a lot of disagreement here on this Forum but disfellowship action is totally absurd. Even your talk of it degrades yourself to a new low point.

Oh look,there goes Dave, the horses have run away with his black Amish buggy. They took off at full speed into the past.

From: Steffani M. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24376, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24365


communications; disfellowshiping

Well, Carol...

What Jesus is saying...as quoted in a book...is that he is giving an explanation about usual universe SOP...to a group of people who were wodering about it. Not "thou shalt not"...just that it ain't so. Of course he and Father make the rules for his universe.

Rob makes it clear that he is a human being who follows the Master in spending time in communion with Father. And then He has an experience which is somewhat unusual...but of a kind which many people report having experienced.

The people of Jesus day said many unkind and untrue things about him. And many who knew him were baffled or even frightened by things he said and did...strange experiences he had. The religious zealots of his day who went "by the rule book" rather than being led by the Father's Spirit in their hearts are the ones he spoke out against...he said "if you know the Father you'd know me too"! They became so angry about that they dis- fellowshipped him by condemning him to a horribly cruel death by crucifixion.

The book itself tells us that we are only being given information that the revelators deem will be conducive to our spiritual and evolutionary progress...

Steffani, this is what Rob wrote, which doesn’t seem to follow your description: "It was only recently that during my regular visits with Father that the ‘founder’ of this forum whom we know as 'Sunshine' was ‘given authorization’ to make a simple statement. It was in effect, a greeting, with love, "recognizing the delight she held for us all in observing our collective movement toward the objective she had sought" .."

This is what the Urantia Book teaches:

P.1646 Jesus further explained to his apostles that the spirits of departed human beings do not come back to the world of their origin to communicate with their living fellows. Only after the passing of a dispensational age would it be possible for the advancing spirit of mortal man to return to earth and then only in exceptional cases and as a part of the spiritual administration of the planet.

What Rob is presenting is a communication of a departed human to her living fellows. Your explanation of how it may happen reinforces my point, that the means don’t qualify the communication.

By all means...conveying a friendly greeting from a friend is a terrible sin...

What Rob has participated in is directly denying the teachings of Jesus- that this type of communication is not to be done. I am in complete agreement with Dave that he should be disfellowshiped from a forum designed to support the teachings of the Urantia Papers, not deny them.

If it can't happen then nothing occurred...which means only that Rob's overactive imagination thought he heard a greeting from Sunshine and was willing to share it with the many UBRON friends here...or worse... he is delusional and ill...and surely being imaginative or psychotic are not punishable offenses in your judgement are they? In my estimation either condition would warrant solicitude any caring...not 'shunning'.

Or if it did happen like he reported...well perhaps the teachings and words will have to be thought about and reassessed for complete understanding...or just the realizations that exceptional circumstances occasionally warrant the granting of exceptions...as there are precedents noted within the UB...Lanaforge getting and giving permission for information about one quarantined planet being given to another...and we were given the message that sweet Andon and Fonta wished to greet us anyway...although it was "wisely denied".

Who can say how important UBRON may be to the spiritual economy of the realm...celestials value things so differently than Urthlings you know?

Anyway...UBRON can certainly do without self-styled judges and inquisitors...if members cannot be given even a modicum of freedom and safety in which to express their thoughts...soon no one will want to post here anyway and Sunshine's dream will be down the tubes along with her list...New Year's greeting being genuine or not...

This is the Urantia Book reader's online network...a forum where the golden rule is the measure of behavioral tolerance for discussion conducive to the spiritual progress of students...not a place where a few zealots with narrow or skewed interpretations of what the UB says can impose their rigid religious beliefs upon other list participants.

At least I sincerely hope that this is what UBRON is...and will continue to be...in the spirit that Susan 'Sunshine' Sarfaty intended. That would be an honorable tribute to her memory for this next year.

Only Love,

Steffani

From: Carol F. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24389, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24371


Disfellowship Who?

Hi Doug, Dave is not off base and it's time some of us grow up and understand that this is a public forum, not a private one. We have responsibilities to the public. Jesus most certainly authorized group judgments, why wouldn't he?

P.1763 While you cannot pretend to sit in judgment on the souls of your fellows, and while you may not forgive sins or otherwise presume to usurp the prerogatives of the supervisors of the heavenly hosts, at the same time, it has been committed to your hands that you should maintain temporal order in the kingdom on earth. While you may not meddle with the divine decrees concerning eternal life, you shall determine the issues of conduct as they concern the temporal welfare of the brotherhood on earth. And so, in all these matters connected with the discipline of the brotherhood, whatsoever you shall decree on earth shall be recognized in heaven.

From: Carol F. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24390, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24376


shamans; disfellowshiping

Hi Steffani, you wrote: "Rob makes it clear that he is a human being who follows the Master in spending time in communion with Father. And then He has an experience which is somewhat unusual...but of a kind which many people report having experienced."

Actually he has had an experience the follows the description of shamanism.

P.988 Primitive astrology was a world-wide belief and practice; dream interpreting also became widespread. All this was soon followed by the appearance of those temperamental shamanesses who professed to be able to communicate with the spirits of the dead.

P.1646 Jesus further explained to his apostles that the spirits of departed human beings do not come back to the world of their origin to communicate with their living fellows.

P.1680 ...The spirits of the dead do not come back to communicate with their families or their onetime friends among the living.

From: Steffani M. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24397, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24336


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

What is the reason that you are so afraid of RhonnaLeigh's answer Stephen 'Thor'- burn...(Old Norse God? Mischief Making Midwayer? Hummm... ;-)

Even though your free will volitional acceptance of Father's Will is the true path to freedom and Reality?

Can it be fear of accepting responsibility for that which you co-create?

Fear that you have somehow attempted to usurp the Power of God yourself?

Not to worry...that can never be possible...as in UNDOABLE!

You know Jesus told the Pharisees of his day the same message she is giving you. The story is perhaps best told in the UB...but as you purport to be a bibliophile...you can read all about it in John Ch.10. The message from the admitted Son of God to these men who hid from God behind religion...that "Ye are gods"...angered them so much that they said Jesus not only was not only devil possessed...but should be stoned to death right then!

Only Love, (getting tougher:-)

Steffani

Hi Stephen!

You ask who's in charge? My take on the answer: All are! You're in charge of your domain, I'm in charge of mine. Each part of the Whole is in charge of themself, for that is anyone's and everyone's ONLY domain -- their self.

When we've all achieved maximization of our best potentials, which is what Jesus did with his, we align with our Source. And in those moments we can know God has returned to earth, for we are the proof of it. Single minded purpose, the dedication to BEING Love, that's the ticket.

The differences between level of God, come from how far back to Source one's Self-knowledge reaches. This is the way I'm able to understand and apply universal truths. Does it help things make more sense for you?

Have a HAPPY NEW YEAR! RhonnaLeigh ...................................

Stephen here: The UB further undermines its mission to clear up the "great confusion respecting the meaning of such terms as God, divinity and Deity" by first defining the term God as "a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity" Then to further define personality as "a level of Deified reality"…such definitions open the door to the usurping of Father’s sovereignty, which in this case may be operative and supported by the Divine Counselor. If everybody is God, then who’s in charge?

From: Steffani M. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24416, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24389


Disfellowship Who?

Hi Doug, Dave is not off base and it's time some of us grow up and understand that this is a public forum, not a private one. We have responsibilities to the public. Jesus most certainly authorized group judgments, why wouldn't he?

* Actually Carol...Dave is so far off base he may be declared AWOL.

P.1763 While you cannot pretend to sit in judgment on the souls of your fellows, and while you may not forgive sins or otherwise presume to usurp the prerogatives of the supervisors of the heavenly hosts, at the same time, it has been committed to your hands that you should maintain temporal order in the kingdom on earth. While you may not meddle with the divine decrees concerning eternal life, you shall determine the issues of conduct as they concern the temporal welfare of the brotherhood on earth. And so, in all these matters connected with the discipline of the brotherhood, whatsoever you shall decree on earth shall be recognized in heaven.

* Well Carol...You and Dave not only "pretend" to sit in judgement on the souls of your fellows...you are presumptuous enough to attempt it... Be careful...lest the "discipline" you seek to inflict upon others be recognized in heaven for 'what it is' lest your judgemental projections produce the 'instant karma' of magnifying your own fears and 'separation anxieties'.

Give it a rest before you dig a hole so deep you find that you can't climb back out until you yourselves are completely covered with the muck you threw out of it at others...

Love Getting As Tough as Required...

Steffani

From: Tiahuan 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24417, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24323


A few comments...

Larry, my gentle friend,

My 'intent' is simply to be loyal in sharing the truth I am given regardless of the repercussions that only our Father can measure. If in seeking first our Father, we then find that in him all are present, would we refuse the affection of our siblings regardless of its form and expression?

with appreciation,

Rob

---------------------------------------------------------------------

1.What was your intent outside of the obvious contained within the message of Susan itself?

1a. None.

2.Were you instructed to forward this?

2a.No, but it was a request that I chose to honor in spite of my own reservations.

3.If so, by whom?

3a. Susan.

4.Did Susan's message popped out of the blue?

4a. I have never thought of Father as blue, but it is nonetheless a color I enjoy.

5.Did you ask to be in contact with her?

5a. No

6.Was it direct or did you utlize your other celestial contacts to receive this message?

6a.All 'messages' are by nature 'mediated' through the 'medium' of mind, but it is my understanding that our midwayer cousins are essential to these type of communications.

7.Tell us about your considerations as to whether you should present this message to UBRON, knowing I'm sure the diquienting effect it would have.

7a.I expressed this in the post itself, nevertheless, quietude and its contrast are essential to our continued growth even as worship and service.

8.Can you outline some process (such as Mark U brought forward) in which the dichotomy between what the Urantia Papers maintain about contact between the living and those that have passed to a different realm, and the fact of your message... which can be satisfied by the possibility of logic?

8a. Only a transcendental logic can reason with the realities of spirit, but I am instructed that my own reservations are shared by Michael who, notwithstanding these, initiates and authorizes any departures from the standards operating in his universe. Our world is, as you know, the personal ward of the Creator Son, and if he should in his wisdom elect to experiment, who are we to question him?

From: Steffani M. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24419, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24390


shamans; disfellowshiping

Horsefeathers Carol!!!

Next you'll be insisting "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"... and "sorcerers and them that have familiar spirits should be put to death" and similar edicts out of deuteronomy you'll be wanting to have enforced by Dave's local NRA chapter...

And the "shamanesses" are going to have to "summon up" the spirit of santeria's St. Chiken Lidle to "come back" to roost on your stoop and inundate it with poop... all the while chanting and presuming to trying to "usurp" the vengeance that rightfully belongs to the 'volcano god'...

Even you have to know way down deep that "old time religion" is NOT what is going on here...

Of course, why not find a few more obscure passages from the UB that do not apply and try to pretend that these are appropriate... they're getting more ludicrous by the moment.

Love to You anyway (and tons of fertilizer to bless your garden!)

Steffani

Hi Steffani, you wrote: "Rob makes it clear that he is a human being who follows the Master in spending time in communion with Father. And then He has an experience which is somewhat unusual...but of a kind which many people report having experienced."

Actually he has had an experience the follows the description of shamanism.

P.988 Primitive astrology was a world-wide belief and practice; dream interpreting also became widespread. All this was soon followed by the appearance of those temperamental shamanesses who professed to be able to communicate with the spirits of the dead.

P.1646 Jesus further explained to his apostles that the spirits of departed human beings do not come back to the world of their origin to communicate with their living fellows.

P.1680 ...The spirits of the dead do not come back to communicate with their families or their onetime friends among the living.

From: Tiahuan 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24422, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24327


Attack on The URANTIA Book

Dear Peter,

There is a foundation which grows stronger with every 'attack' it sustains. 'The URANTIA Book' is reinforced with 'rebar' untouched by any and all 'attacks' on it.

with confidence,

Rob

From: Larry G. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24429, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24417


A few comments...

Yes Rob...

I would not turn down affection in any form,

But this does not put to rest my intellectual probing as the form you chose seems to alter a dictum within the Urantia Papers.

Even altering a book concept is fine with me, if I can grasp the why and the how of this exception of communication from one realm to another between ascending mortals. This is what prompted my questions, which except for your intent, still lay unanswered.

Am I asking the wrong questions?

Help me out here.

* * * * * * *

From: Tiahuan 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24430, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24314


My Fear: Stephen

Dear Peter,

Knowing as you do that the human mind first lives and then only subsequently thinks about it, what ideas are 'your own' original to 'your' mind and in reflection upon what? Is it possible for the mirror of mind to be its own source of light?

As to a 'different account' than reported by merely one about yet another concerning the 'origin' of The Urantia Papers, consider the 'pronunciation guide' offered for any asking how to 'speak' words not previously found in the English language. Where might you 'think' the 'origin' of this guidance resides?

with appreciation,

Rob

From: Tiahuan 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24432, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24429


A few comments...

Dear Larry,

I appreciate your probity of mind and share your questions, but in truth, as to the 'why and how of this exception', I must refer you to another, even he who resides along with the spirit of our Father within you and all. Regardless, I am confident his answer will reference an imperative coming from the heart of God demanding the use of all means necessary to rebind to his family those who have suffered this loss from the forfeiture of trust given to his once loyal Sons.

with love,

Rob

From: Doug H. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24435, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Purported Celestials - A Plea

Dear Friends of the forum:

If you are disturbed by messages from Purported Celestials, please do not subscribe to this topic!

If contact with the spirit realm gives you the heebie-jeebies do not get involved with the people who enjoy it and are involved in it.

I have been enjoying contact with all sorts of spirits and celestial beings. I am not spooked by it at all. It is all very natural to me and others.

I fully realise that many readers of the UB are just not all that up on matters of the spirit realm. That's fine. All things come at the right time in someone's life.

Again, please do not check *Yes* for the Purported Celestials topic if you only want to get all upset and angry with those of us who believe that even a book of revelation can come from the Celestials.

Remember a lot of unrevealed action is taking place in the "borderland" area of this planet.

Everyone have a Happy New Year

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24448, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24362


Attack on The URANTIA Book

Hi everyone!

Regarding Dave's latest display of sexism, which he believes is sanctioned by God, as in:

"Share the Gospel that each and every Person is now a Beloved Son of God with a God- given Absolutely Unique PerSonality ! (PerDaughterality, will not make it, sad to say, LOL)",

I provide this reminder from Webster's, that person is defined as:

1. a human being. (2. I don't list because of it's more glaring service to specie-ism) 3. the actual self or individual personality of a human being,

with personality defined as:

1. the visible aspect of one's character as it impresses others. 2. a person as an embodiment of a collection of qualities. 3.a. the sum total of the physical, mental, emotional, and social characteristics of an individual. b. the organized pattern of behavioral characteristics of the individual. 4. the quality of being a person; personal existence or identity.

and all definitions for "personal" continue in this vein. Basically, that Beingness is not a function of maleness, as Dave would have us all believe.

Persons are not "more" or "less" personal/real by virtue of the gender of that body which houses their being.

Using language in a way that supports such a fallacious concept -- as the antiquated terminology in the Urantia Book does (as do many posters here, to varying degrees of loud insistence that it's the ONLY and RIGHT way to depict universal TRUTH) -- serves only to delay the dawning of awareness in each child of God's heart that they ARE a full child of God, with all the rights and powers concomitant with that fact. That each is born to fulfill the prophecy of Christ's return to the material worlds.

If we would see this world settled in Love, Light and Life, does it not make sense to empower all it's inhabitants toward the fullest expression of their Being?

Sounds reasonable to me! RhonnaLeigh

From: Brother Dave A J. 1/1/02
Msg. No: 24451, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24448


Feminist Attack on The URANTIA Book

Hi Sister-Son of God RhonnaLeigh and all faith Sons of God here,

The few definitions on personality in the HuMan dictionaries are greatly deficient to the 2635 Urantia book paragraphs on person* (personal, personality, etc.)

See page 1225 to start. It would be presumptous for even the Revelators to attempt to define Personality. Of the 4 Gravity Presence Circuits of Reality, Personality is #1 of them.

No, we will never actually change the language in the Urantia Book Revelation of Truth because real woMen are able to grasp what it really states ! Both Men and woMen ARE Beloved Sons of God ! The Daughters of God are our Angel cousins, in two types, active and recessive.

Here are just two Urantia Book paragraphs on personality and men and women to also believe:

Page-938 "The differences of nature, reaction, viewpoint, and thinking between men and women, far from occasioning concern, should be regarded as highly beneficial to mankind, both individually and collectively. Many orders of universe creatures are created in dual phases of personality manifestation. Among mortals, Material Sons, and midsoniters, this difference is described as male and female; among seraphim, cherubim, and Morontia Companions, it has been denominated positive or aggressive and negative or retiring. Such dual associations greatly multiply versatility and overcome inherent limitations, even as do certain triune associations in the Paradise-Havona system."

Page-939 "Men and women need each other in their morontial and spiritual as well as in their mortal careers. The differences in viewpoint between male and female persist even beyond the first life and throughout the local and superuniverse ascensions. And even in Havona, the pilgrims who were once men and women will still be aiding each other in the Paradise ascent. Never, even in the Corps of the Finality, will the creature metamorphose so far as to obliterate the personality trends that humans call male and female; always will these two basic variations of humankind continue to intrigue, stimulate, encourage, and assist each other; always will they be mutually dependent on co-operation in the solution of perplexing universe problems and in the overcoming of manifold cosmic difficulties."

RhonnaLeigh, you should be proud to forever be "sexist" and know the importance of Men being Men only and Women being Women only; as each is made by our loving Father God to Be in Personality attributes that go very far beyond the small body type differences down here to start as a mortal personality. As we go higher, these differences should increase. Never will there be a dull "unisex" homegeneous type ! Doesn't that make you happy? It should, and it will.

More later on this, without end :))

Love, peace and progress,

Your Brother Dave

 

RhonnaLeigh M. wrote:

Hi everyone!

Regarding Dave's latest display of sexism, which he believes is sanctioned by God, as in:

"Share the Gospel that each and every Person is now a Beloved Son of God with a God- given Absolutely Unique PerSonality ! (PerDaughterality, will not make it, sad to say, LOL)",

I provide this reminder from Webster's, that person is defined as:

1. a human being. (2. I don't list because of it's more glaring service to specie-ism) 3. the actual self or individual personality of a human being,

with personality defined as:

1. the visible aspect of one's character as it impresses others. 2. a person as an embodiment of a collection of qualities. 3.a. the sum total of the physical, mental, emotional, and social characteristics of an individual. b. the organized pattern of behavioral characteristics of the individual. 4. the quality of being a person; personal existence or identity.

and all definitions for "personal" continue in this vein. Basically, that Beingness is not a function of maleness, as Dave would have us all believe.

Persons are not "more" or "less" personal/real by virtue of the gender of that body which houses their being.

Using language in a way that supports such a fallacious concept -- as the antiquated terminology in the Urantia Book does (as do many posters here, to varying degrees of loud insistence that it's the ONLY and RIGHT way to depict universal TRUTH) -- serves only to delay the dawning of awareness in each child of God's heart that they ARE a full child of God, with all the rights and powers concomitant with that fact. That each is born to fulfill the prophecy of Christ's return to the material worlds.

If we would see this world settled in Love, Light and Life, does it not make sense to empower all it's inhabitants toward the fullest expression of their Being?

Sounds reasonable to me! RhonnaLeigh

From: Tiahuan 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24452, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24451


Feminist Attack on The URANTIA Book

Dear Dave,

Language is a fluid 'medium' whereby 'thought' occurs in the mind. Not only can it be changed, but in truth is constantly changing despite the efforts of archivists.

in friendship,

Rob

From: Carol F. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24459, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24398


Disfellowship Who?

Hi Ray, I've tried to write to you privately but your address bounces back. I don't know how to put instructions on UBRON because the codes activate the function and disappear.

For instance if I write: put-- before the passage and after--.

All that shows up on UBRON is the bold. I need to send this to you privately. Sorry if I'm not explaining this very well.

Carol

From: Steffani M. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24461, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24451


Feminist Attack on The URANTIA Book

As Usual Dave...

You miss the point. Under God's ways there is no problem... but under "man's ways" there has been an overvaluing of the kind's of things that are "man's work" and an undervaluing of what men define as "women's work in Urantian cultural systems for at least the last 12,500 years or so. The effect is painfully apparent to any young girl who has an "uncle" who employs both she and her (maybe even younger) brother to help out with some chores...and at the end of the day she is paid a quarter an hour, and he is paid a dollar an hour, even though she worked twice as hard and was even able to do more efficient work. This is what the true nature of the problem is...and it has been pervasive for so long that it feels "natural" even to women and men of good will who would not seek to intentionally or consciously be unfair in their dealings with either gender. I don't "blame men" but more people of both polarities are becoming aware that there is a problem...and are seeking just and rightful solutions to it.

UB: P774 p.1 All down through the ages the taboos have operated to keep woman strictly in her own field. Man has most selfishly chosen the more agreeable work, leaving the routine drudgery to woman. Man has always been ashamed to do woman's work, but woman has never shown any reluctance to do man's work. But, strange to record, both men and women have always worked together in building and furnishing the home.

and P.934 p.9

Decreasing primitive warfare greatly lessened the disparity between the division of labor based on sex. But women still had to do the real work while men did picket duty.

I am less bothered about this only because even though I have typical Urth female experiences that are common to womankind...I know my identity in God's kingdom as an equally accepted and beloved negative polarity brother and son.

This is not, however, a valid reason to not attempt to make living conditions on my present home world better for my fellow human beings... by righting the wrongs that exist at the level of practical everyday living in this realm by undoing inequities an objective glance cannot miss when I look around at "what goes on". IF it becomes within my scope of ability to change these situations, then it also then becomes my responsibility to act to do so.

Frankly, I much enjoy the more typical feminine work and roles...being a 'mom', a professional nurse, and homemaking and gardening raised to an 'art-form' ala Martha Stewart. However, I also have obtained great pleasure during some phases of my life of owning my own Harley-Davidson motorcycle, admittedly "just a Sportster" and an 'evo' because I do not derive the same level of happiness that my 'brother' friend's do from tearing down engines that leak oil and rebuilding them honed to the finer tolerances that end the problem for but a season...nor do I agree with the arrogant psychiatrist I used to work for that believed such stereotypes as " women who ride motorcycles have gender identity problems" or "people who ride motorcycles don't work"...even when he had living proof positive in his face that these assumptions weren't necessarily so.

Of course this man was a veritable paragon of 'sanity'. Narcissism and explosive rage disorder were likely the DSM-IV best categories for his behavioral characteristics. He would 'fire' a member of his tiny and equally essential office personell at the rate of one every week or two...there wasn't really that much turnover because he would woo them back not with an apology but a small 'party' to celebrate their return.

When my turn rolled around he called me to his office and said..."You know, you and I have always had a personality clash so I think I want to terminate you two weeks from today. (I'd only worked there around 2 years at the time ;-) The real deal was that he thought at the moment he could get a younger and perhaps slightly prettier girl, a friend of mine from my last job actually, to work for him. She decided not to after hearing about this development. I calmly asked him, "then this has nothing to do with the quality of nursing care I have provided for your patients"? And you won't mind giving me a reference stating that fact? He turned immediately to his dictaphone and produced the most stunningly complimentary letter of recommendation of my talents and abilities that I have ever received...even from people who appreciate me far more! I'm telling you this story so you can see that women are especially subject to having their lives seriously disrupted simply on a man's whim.

In fairness I will tell you that neither would I have gone to work for this brilliant, but egotistical and capricious individual except a friend his administrator, an Episcopal priest and a very charming, persuasive man (who had been a Marine jungle survival trainer in Viet Nam...no wuss ;-) had challenged me to take the job after 2 whole days of gruelingly honest 'orientation' to let me know what I'd have to deal with there. "Please",Father M__K implored, "I need a nurse here who can handle this."

Of course, the dominance and control pissing contest rituals, as practiced by males, was the version foisted on the doctor's second in command right hand man too...he was told that he must wear a business suit rather than his cassock at work...or be fired. My desk was in front of his office, the fact that my friend would work out his stresses after a confrontation with Herr Docteiur by vigorously kneading my back, which always welcomes a good massage turned out to be one of the better unexpected 'perks' of this dysfunctional realm of employment ;-)

I refused to be lured back the following Friday by the promise of a pizza party when the "boss" approached asking..."you're not still leaving me are you?"

Well, the older woman who is my nursing mentor had to leave several months before to care for her mom who was dying from cancer...my tactic to help the facility run well around our problematic physician had been to wisely implore her to come back and function as DON while I was still officially 'nurse manager' with which our administor graciously concurred although a small facility didn't actually require someone in such a position...but we 'sold' our psychiatrist on the idea by appealing to his boundless ego...it made us look 'prestigious'.

She 'took care of' the doctor and I took care of the patients and together with the rest of the clinical staff we devised programming that worked beneficially for all. Without my 'director-friend' there working around the doctor's erratic incursions into trying to keep his place functioning smoothely simply wasn't worth it...even though the administrator had opted to remain and wear suits...no humility issues with that guy ;-)

The psychiatrist had even asked me to falsify a record to appear as though an inpatient was only in day tx and when I declined became angry screaming "why can't you just do as you're told". There reaches a point where one's best efforts can't compensate for the imminent disaster events chaotic disregard of principles will inevitably indicate are looming upon the horizon...the excellence of the remaining stall notwithstanding.

"Such a life on such a planet" has been a terrific learning experience. I may have even detected a recurrent thematic precursor pattern paralleling default engendered by so-called 'real life' in 'the world'. And this fact leaves me in a perpetual state of longing that Father's Will and way come soon in truth "on Urth as it is in the rest of heaven". Our "problems" in Satania may be local...but have still effected the rest of the family in Nebadon as well as Orvonton as a whole.

I hope stories and examples that illustrate what is 'wrong with this picture' work as well for you as they do for me, in producing greater awareness of the kinds of things that could benefit from correction around these parts of the galaxy. Not a whole lot bothers me much because I know of a truth that Father is really in complete charge and control in every circumstance where at least one of the participants in a scenario is in a conscious state of surrender to Him.

But...a lot still transpires on this planet wherein this is not the case...all the more reason that sharing the basic gospel truth remain any true religionist's number one priority after accepting sonship for him or herself.

Your fellow (albeit disagreeing) 'bumpy brother' faith-son of God, trying to learn godlike unconditional love like Father's for all...

Steffani

Hi Sister-Son of God RhonnaLeigh and all faith Sons of God here,

The few definitions on personality in the HuMan dictionaries are greatly deficient to the 2635 Urantia book paragraphs on person* (personal, personality, etc.)

See page 1225 to start. It would be presumptous for even the Revelators to attempt to define Personality. Of the 4 Gravity Presence Circuits of Reality, Personality is #1 of them.

No, we will never actually change the language in the Urantia Book Revelation of Truth because real woMen are able to grasp what it really states ! Both Men and woMen ARE Beloved Sons of God ! The Daughters of God are our Angel cousins, in two types, active and recessive.

Here are just two Urantia Book paragraphs on personality and men and women to also believe:

Page-938 "The differences of nature, reaction, viewpoint, and thinking between men and women, far from occasioning concern, should be regarded as highly beneficial to mankind, both individually and collectively. Many orders of universe creatures are created in dual phases of personality manifestation. Among mortals, Material Sons, and midsoniters, this difference is described as male and female; among seraphim, cherubim, and Morontia Companions, it has been denominated positive or aggressive and negative or retiring. Such dual associations greatly multiply versatility and overcome inherent limitations, even as do certain triune associations in the Paradise-Havona system."

Page-939 "Men and women need each other in their morontial and spiritual as well as in their mortal careers. The differences in viewpoint between male and female persist even beyond the first life and throughout the local and superuniverse ascensions. And even in Havona, the pilgrims who were once men and women will still be aiding each other in the Paradise ascent. Never, even in the Corps of the Finality, will the creature metamorphose so far as to obliterate the personality trends that humans call male and female; always will these two basic variations of humankind continue to intrigue, stimulate, encourage, and assist each other; always will they be mutually dependent on co-operation in the solution of perplexing universe problems and in the overcoming of manifold cosmic difficulties."

RhonnaLeigh, you should be proud to forever be "sexist" and know the importance of Men being Men only and Women being Women only; as each is made by our loving Father God to Be in Personality attributes that go very far beyond the small body type differences down here to start as a mortal personality. As we go higher, these differences should increase. Never will there be a dull "unisex" homegeneous type ! Doesn't that make you happy? It should, and it will.

More later on this, without end :))

Love, peace and progress,

Your Brother Dave

RhonnaLeigh M. wrote:

Hi everyone!

Regarding Dave's latest display of sexism, which he believes is sanctioned by God, as in:

"Share the Gospel that each and every Person is now a Beloved Son of God with a God- given Absolutely Unique PerSonality ! (PerDaughterality, will not make it, sad to say, LOL)",

I provide this reminder from Webster's, that person is defined as:

1. a human being. (2. I don't list because of it's more glaring service to specie-ism) 3. the actual self or individual personality of a human being,

with personality defined as:

1. the visible aspect of one's character as it impresses others. 2. a person as an embodiment of a collection of qualities. 3.a. the sum total of the physical, mental, emotional, and social characteristics of an individual. b. the organized pattern of behavioral characteristics of the individual. 4. the quality of being a person; personal existence or identity.

and all definitions for "personal" continue in this vein. Basically, that Beingness is not a function of maleness, as Dave would have us all believe.

Persons are not "more" or "less" personal/real by virtue of the gender of that body which houses their being.

Using language in a way that supports such a fallacious concept -- as the antiquated terminology in the Urantia Book does (as do many posters here, to varying degrees of loud insistence that it's the ONLY and RIGHT way to depict universal TRUTH) -- serves only to delay the dawning of awareness in each child of God's heart that they ARE a full child of God, with all the rights and powers concomitant with that fact. That each is born to fulfill the prophecy of Christ's return to the material worlds.

If we would see this world settled in Love, Light and Life, does it not make sense to empower all it's inhabitants toward the fullest expression of their Being?

Sounds reasonable to me! RhonnaLeigh

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24464, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24451


Feminist Attack on The URANTIA Book

(I think a more appropriate subject for your posts would be "Sexism Undermining the FER")

Dear Dave,

Since acknowledging the equality of my being is something you only feel comfortable giving lip service to, but IS the minimum respect due me out of common courtesy, I request that in future you address me simply by my name. No more of this Sister-Son crap from you in reference to me, OK? I know why you use the term Dave, and it couldn't be farther from a term of respect when spoken by one who continually self-reveals as a male chauvinist in his posts to me and others.

I am myself, Dave; not your concept of what I 'should' be. Since I have stated on many occasions that I believe male offspring are denoted by the term "Son" which is not the gender of human I personally identify with, it is disrespectful of you to persist in addressing me that way. Granted it took me a while to catch on that you prefer Dave, to David, but since doing so I have not honored that preference? What makes it proper for you to withhold a similar modicum of consideration?

Now, in reply to your latest...

I am sorry for you and all affected by your limitations, that you believe personality is the privileged possession of only male Heirs of God. You seem to have magnified a simple little misperception all out of proportion and your acting on it is what's making your effect so detrimental. The word "man" comes from the word "human". Not the other way around, as you seem to think. And the word "woman" is to be read as "womb-type human", not "woe of man" as your tone so often implies.

Now, I know where that erroneous notion of yours comes from. I was subjected to the same indoctrination as you were, growing up. It is a lie though, my friend. A hoax. A fabrication concocted by a few desirous of power over others. There is no such thing as rulership in equality. Paying dues to any system that claims otherwise is money wasted! You're playing a world game, when you act like there is any truth to the myth.

When one realizes they've been mistaken about the best way to spend themselves in service to God, the wise person stops self-defeating behaviors immediately. While they're working out a more sane approach to their goals, they consciously avoid repeated error. Once they've formulated a better plan for realization of potentials, they commit unreservedly to serve that higher understanding of Truth they've now attained. It's only natural! So I don't get why I don't see you doing that part. The unreserved commitment part, I mean.

You claim to understand the equal spiritual value of the two basic types of human beings, but you persist in serving those world systems that would keep the majority oppressed by the few. Which is killing a lot of people on this planet, need I remind you? before they've had the opportunity to discover their TRUE natures. Do you see an incongruity in the image you present of your beliefs, Dave?

How can you claim to be serving the spiritual regeneration of humanity when you're UBRON's loudest voice against encouraging every member of the human family to realize their divinity? And seemingly for the purpose of getting into heaven without the same effort on your part that is required of all other aspirants.

You acknowledge that the gender-specific attributes of creatures is an indispensable part of their contribution to the Supreme. Then you turn right around and say that the only possessors of Spirit, all know themselves as "Sons" ONLY. Where are my muck-boots when I need them?

You can't really believe two opposing notions at once, can you? It's never been done successfully yet, despite how many have tried before you and probably will long after! Remember the good 'ole bible adage that "God and Mammon don't mix"? Or how about, "No one can serve two masters"? That's really true, 'ya know. Experience, and reflection on experience always bears that out, whether it is ours or someone else's.

You seem possessed of fully operating mental faculties, so what's the reason that you're still trying to get eternal reward from a system that is temporary in nature? No world system can buy you a ticket into Heaven.

If what you cared about was the doing of God's will ~ setting free the spirit potentials of all God's children ~ you would cease your pursuit of continued self-service at group expense. That you persist in it, clearly shows that you haven't yet chosen eternal life. Because as long as you would hoard for yourself, more than you accord others, you cannot hope to enjoy life everlasting.

My impatience fails to communicate, most likely, that I'm just trying to help broaden your horizons, so we can all feel less encumbered by your restricted view of RIGHTness. I am here to help. And I'm not here from 1,000 years into the future, either. The personality I'm perfecting was born in 1960, on the same world you inhabit. I am merely doing what I can to keep it alive long enough for all who want to, to personally experience Michael's ascension plan.

So impatient or not, I am doing my best to serve Love and Peace, nonetheless. As you are too, though I suspect you haven't a clue how you're actually doing that IF you believe your projected image. Please trust that I value you Dave, even when my words don't seem to be saying that. Forgive my shortness of temper when it fails to convey the truth that I care about you very much and hope to augment your experience of all that's truly good.

Now, having done my civic duty for the moment, I'm gonna go experience some of that peace for myself by catching up on my knitting :)

Apologetic to the group for talking so long,

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24466, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24461


Feminist Attack on The URANTIA Book

Dear Steffani,

Wow! How powerfully you've just demonstrated the incomporable potency of truth-sharing through personal experience. No dry quotes from any book, however superior it may be, could hope to accomplish so much.

And I see now, that I needn't feel bad about taking up people's time with a long post. Not if I can manage to make it a beneficial gift, as you have done here.

Keep on revealing the Fifth! RhonnaLeigh

From: Larry G. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24467, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24432


A few comments...

Dear Rob...

I appreciate the reminder that our Father will reach out in ways to bind us together that the ones being bound cannot follow at times.

Is the 'he' you refer me to the Spirit of Truth?

Also, I take your answer to mean that the Urantia Papers' revelation that there is no communication between departed ones and those still in this realm...has been superceded because of certain imperatives.

Is this your meaning?

* * * * * * *

From: Peter H. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24473, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24464


Feminist Attack on The URANTIA Book

Hi Dave and others!

The fact that the supernal authors used the then-current english language as they found it and where they found it, does not mean that we should NOT correct the defeciencies caused by that faulty language.

You, Dave, would have us "make no changes" (VERY UN-Jesusonian) and be like the Christians who still use their approximation of Middle English, especially the "thees" and thous".

Believe me, we will never become a civilized planet until we stop even traditional language usages which portray women as being somehow second rate. The situation is already bad enough on its own, but you seem to delight in making it even worse with cracks about per SON s, etc.

Read a book about language and how it changes, why don't you. Get a grip on the facts! 500 (less! Much less!) years from now The URANTIA Book will *only* be accessable to scholars if the language in which it is presented does not keep up with the changes in the tongue.

We should ALWAYS keep copies of the first printing so people in the future -- the scholars -- CAN do their thing! But your logic, if carried to its exterme, would disallow any translations AS WELL AS future non-sexist editions. Not all languages are sexist in the eay that ours is. Some may not even have pronouns designating gender! And many likely don't group both men and women under words which are also specific for, or contain the root of words for, the designators of the male sex. That is, in some languages there may indeed be a non-sexist presentation simply due to their structure. Would you then have translators work English sexist structure into them so as to be true to the original?

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24477, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24311


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Steffani,

I am not twisting anything, just telling it as I see it.

By your logic we are to accept anything that is written in a book because it says that it was written by a celestial being. There re a lot of authors out there who will love to hear that. But there are a lot of authors who might also object to having their words lifted without credit givn, under the excuse that...God gave them o you so all laws are negated.

And by your logic also, if the Bible is unreliable as a source for its inspired writings, then we should also throw out the UB for the same reasons. Even moreso because there is absolutely NO evidence to support its claims or positions. Is a Divine Counselor mentioned in ANY other manuscript or historical record?

---The universes are a family owned and operated business...everyone is a shareholder...and also employed at a level according to his skills, abilities, experience, expertise and interests. If you decide to skim company funds for your own projects...and you get caught...well, it is your own brothers you were scamming and holding out on...and even though your Dad owns the company...He's their Dad too. You are then history if they say so if Father gives them permission to dispense with you as they wish...and at least...if their mercy is forthcoming and you accept their forgiveness you are fired from that particular office of responsibility. If your sadness at the eventual realization of the difficulty and turmoil doesn't bring you to the point of insanity or suicide...well, you can be transferred to a branch office to rebuild trust and eventually work yourself back up to greater responsibilities more in synch with your talents and abilities again. ---

Does this mean that if I get smart enough I can kick God out of his throne and take over? Of course if anyone in a position above you decides that he likes his position, and has no intention of giving it up...the name for this is a CASTE system.

On ESG invited you to offer substantive comments to my argument...I see nothing substantive to the facts and interpretations I submitted...if anyone is playing shutes and ladders here, it is you.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24478, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24331


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Carol,

Language is useless if we do not have a standard by which to define its words...Webster has provided this.

Blind acceptance certainly does not rise to the level of discernment. Study is about questioning and truth-seeking.

I have laid out my facts and my interpretations, if you have a substantive challenge to those, please offer them up.

Stephen

From: Gene N. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24479, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24461


Feminist Attack on The URANTIA Book

Ms Steffani Murray: Thank you for the succint slice of your life in respect to your (as a female of the species) experience in the Bioworld. I especially noticed your description of yourself as a negatively charged son. IMO we could all learn more in these dialouges if instead of challenging, attacking or trying to conquer each other we simply speak of real life experiences that help teach each other the mysteries of life. Especially those that have to do with the differences between what is known as male and female on this planet. Have a wonderful 2002 and keep up the good living.

From: Peter H. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24482, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24477


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Hi Stephen!

If I may inject a personal note: I don't have so much "Blind acceptance" as I do experimental exceptance. Nor do I accept it so much because of its claims as I do because, first, I don't believe that humans could have written it without one hell-of-a computer data base (but it was written in 1936-36). And secondly, its truths prove to be true, in-so-far as I experience them.

I *grow* spiritually, i.e., into a better person, BECAUSE of The URANTIA Book and its help vis a vis my internal spirit endowment. I LEARNED about my internal spiritual endowment by asking Jesus into my heart some 30-35 years ago. I prove it by my transformed life.

So, then, The UBook gives me a framework for viewing my own ongoing spiritual experience. When I say "experimental" I mean something like getting on an elevator and going to the 5th floor simply on faith that you will find Dr. Drillum Deep's dental office there. So far it works!

Unlike Dave, I believe that it TELLS us it contains less than perfect statements of truth. Not just incomplete, mind you, but less than perfect. So that means it contains some error (because it was transmitted and physically materialized somehow through the mind of a man). Having been forewarned, I am forearmed.

So, experimentally I take it as written. Some of it we cannot ever know of a certainty in this life because it cannot be experienced while we are here. But that which can be proven must be so proven to be of service to us. It must become our own personal truth, not because we have been told it, but because either we have experienced it or we just "know" it on somekind of deep level. But this deep "knowledge" level must be proved experimentially as well.

And then there is also the fact that in spite of all this we are going to sometimes be just plain WRONG! But that's the nature of the game.

I enjoy it, I get a whole lot of good out of it, and I am promised eternal life in the bargain. Who knows, I may wake up in hell saying "F**K"! But hey, I am 65 years old, facing death at anytime (as really we all do all the time in this accident-prone world) and I would rather make an adventure out of dying than just "fade away" or go screaming into the long night!

Sincerely (please overlook any typoes, I am outta time)

Peter

From: Tiahuan 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24484, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24467


A few comments...

Dear Larry,

Yes, the 'he' I referred to is Michael living within us through his 'bestowal spirit' i.e Spirit of Truth magnifying the influence of our Father fragment. I am not saying that what is given in the text is 'superceded' regarding communication with recently departed or their possible return to this world for continued service, but that there appears a willingness to 'experiment' under certain conditions given the initiatives being taken with regard to our 'reunion'. If you will, while the 'rule' may apply, exceptions are nonetheless made.

I hope this clarifies the matter a bit even if it does present a more familiar real world blend of grayscale and color than the elemental simplicities of black and white certainties some may require for confidence.

Gratefully,

Rob

From: Peter H. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24485, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living


I gave a dinner party . . .

I gave a dinner party the other evening. It was really potluck and people came in with the most wonderful dishes (some of which weren't to my taste, however).

Then one street person showed up with a garbage can which he or she proceeded to dump and strew all over the table.

I said, "Hey! Wait a minute! What are you doing?"

He or she answered, "Well I eat out of garbage cans. There is some real nourishing stuff in them!"

He or she had me there all right, and since everybody else was so extremely politically correct (which they have transformed into being Religiously Correct -- that's the kind of people I hang out with), we just dug right in, and ate food, garbage, and all. (Did you know that you can live off of mouldy leftover pieces of Big Macs alone . . . for a while?)

There was one guy there, though, who just plain wouldn't tolerate that garbage being served up with all that good food. It "ruined" it, he claimed, and began to use some words we didn't like to hear, so we kicked his butt right out, let me tell you!

We let him come back later to sort through our leavings if he wanted to, so it was ok!

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24490, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Members

Dearest Members, One and All,

I am deeply saddened by the behavior I have witnessed from some of you over the past few days.

SIGH

But it always seems to be the case somebody is going to get offended at something ... just about every day or once a week or whatever.

Did you know that being offended is a choice? Did you know offenses exist in your mind? Did you know offense can be transcended by choice?

The purpose of the URANTIA BOOK READER'S ONLINE NETWORK is to spread the benign virus of love as taught in the book and also to employ, agree to and utilize the Golden Rule.

I have not seen as much of this as you are all capable of - and I have seen all of you demonstrate so much wisdom and love before! You have really been of high caliber and integrity. Let's make some peace, not war, ok?

I have written private messages to those of you who I think need a sisterly nudge to exhibit your better selves here.

I also have had a difficult time at home during the Holiday Season, and on top of that situation I made time to read all the posts that you complained about privately, which isn't my job, but hey, you asked me to assist so, I did as an honest effort try to be of service.

You all know who you are, and I expect each and EVERY one of you to choose the right thing to do.

It is a New Year, I would be very pleased to see all of you trying your best to be a contributor of good cheer, love, tolerance, enlightenment, meekness, joy, peace and fraternity toward one another.

Eating fruity pebbles is better than swallowing stones thrown,

Love, Holly

From: Patrick M. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24491, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance


A Message for all UBRON Members

Dear UBRON Members,

This year, UBRON will have been in existence for 4 years. Susan Sarfaty developed its original vision with the assistance of Bruce Schuman, who still privately owns and operates this site. Since then, it has grown to nearly 1000 subscribers. I took over as the administrative list administrator about a year or so ago following Susan’s death from bone cancer. Recently, Holly Charmichael, at my request, has also taken over some administrative functions. I hope we have served you well. During the past year, I have also suspended some subscribers because of their disrespect for our purpose here, for personal attacks on other members, and for general disrespect for this network. I have also reinstated a few to see whether they will join us in furthering our purpose. We’ll see as time goes on.

More recently, certain individuals have taken it upon themselves to try to alter the purpose of this service. In one case, Rob Davis has alleged that Susan has sent a message through him to this list. Frankly, I think this is a figment of Rob’s mind, and I say this publicly as I did privately to him. I have written Rob personally, and told him that this was an issue (messages coming from the dead) that we are told in the Urantia Revelation does not take place during this dispensation. Rob’s counter to this was that then we must be in a new dispensation since he received this message.

It is also my opinion that most of us here will take the Book’s word over Rob’s. Rob has always been kind here, but Rob also has his own view of things, which differs with the majority of Urantia book readers. It also makes us look (as a group) a bit foolish in my opinion.

There have others who have also taken it upon themselves to post here as a means to discredit the book and it’s teachings, with little regard for anything bu argument. They call it truth seeking and honest study. I am speaking specifically of recent subscriber Stephen Robert Thornburn right now, but others have also tried to infiltrate this list with particular biases, and have been generally arrogant, egotistical, and self-righteous. I have suspended a few of these folks, as well, and frankly, have no regrets. If Mr. Thornburn continues his contentious attacks on the Urantia book and other members, I will suspend him as well.

Some people think that they have some sort of "Divine Right" to post here and to be active members. I would remind every member again, that this is a privately owned and operated site, and those policies regarding its use and purpose are subject to the decisions of the owner of the list. I have discussed some of these issues with Bruce, and he agrees with me. Also, UBRON was never really set up as an exclusively dedicated e-mail forum, like a typical Listserv, although it is being used that way primarily.

Another policy that I believe is important "netiquette" is that no person will be allowed to continue to post here if they continue to post private messages they have received from other members, or from off the list, unless they have permission to do so from the sender. And if two of our members want to have private arguments, take it off line. Continued arguing and public "point proving" is a distraction and is a waste of our time. Chris Barnaby and George Barnard come to mind recently. I love both of these brothers, but keep your arguments private, please.

Posts from the group called the Teaching Mission are also generally not a part of the purpose of UBRON. There are many other places that one can go to sign up to get these "messages". We are here to discuss the Urantia Book, and to follow it’s teachings. Also, all such dialog belongs in our "Purported Celestials" topic. Why purported? Because it’s the best word we have come up with. Any member who has dynamic e- mail set to YES, and does not want to get any posts from this topic should make sure that this topic selection is set to NO. By default, all new members are subscribed to all topics if they set their dynamic e-mail to YES.

Another hint. To ensure that you don’t lose a message after spending hours typing it, type it in your word processing program first, making sure you save it regularly. You can then copy and paste it into your UBRON mail to be sent and still have a copy left if the system fails or your server goes down.

And to all new members and new cybernauts, especially, please respond privately if you have a short message of thanks or kudos for a nice post form another member. Such messages clog up cyber mailboxes and are considered bad netiquette.

Let’s review a little bit about our origin, history and destiny here on UBRON. This is especially for new members, but for some of the Charter and long-term Members as well. These are from Susan’s posts in the archive, since she said it better than I could. A lot of good reading. I hope we get some discussion about all of this.

"The purpose of this network is "to spread the 'benign virus of love' across the globe." Politics are discussed ad nauseum elsewhere. Our direct aim is to foster more spiritual living among ourselves and to support outreach activities toward bringing about light and life on the planet. We are still in our infancy in that regard, and there are many other "initiatives" out there in cyberspace that are attempting some sort of the same thing."

"I ask you all, in humble sincerity. Please be guided accordingly when posting to the network. All efforts to present well-reasoned, finely crafted posts will most definitely be appreciated."

"The mission of UBRON is spiritual rather than political. Many other forums exist for the discussion of politics, and adding yet another is not part of the vision for UBRON."

Does anyone remember?

"The idea here is to seek spiritual light in our lives and share it unstintingly.

The only rule for participation is that we treat each other with respect and try our best to find spiritual answers for whatever concerns may confront us."

"Continued attacks and outbursts, no matter how much God or any of the present company may love you, for the sake of peaceful coexistence for the rest of the group, will cause anyone to be history at UBRON. This was Susan’s opinion, and I feel the same way."

"Some of you seem to be incapable of living within the very simple guidelines for membership privileges in the UBRON community - that we make every effort to be tolerant of others' views and that we treat each other with kindness."

"In the wake of recent upheavals and ruffled feathers, I'm reposting a previous message posted by Susan on UBRON regarding the purpose of UBRON and our code of ethics. This message also happens to contain a warning to a former member, which preceded his membership cancellation today."

"The dynamics of list interactions are certainly interesting and sometimes puzzling to me. For myself, I try to follow a policy of "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything."

"And I think it's been made pretty clear that UBRON is meant to foster positive, uplifting kinds of thoughtful interactions."

"As webmistress, I see so much of people's hearts on the line here, not only in their public behavior, but even more so in their private correspondence with me. I'm deeply respectful of how tenuous is our grasp on faith and trust, and strongly desirous of providing at least one "safe sanctuary" -- in the form of UBRON."

"It can be a very delicate balancing act -- how to be open to all, without censorship, relying on each individual's integrity to keep things moving in a positive direction, always seeking spiritual light, rather than getting caught up in our normal all-too-human ways of interacting."

"The only method I've come across which seems to work is to try to find creative ways of "returning good for evil." In other words, if someone starts down a negative path, instead of going there and getting into it with him -- look to the spirit and find something true, beautiful and/or good on which to focus."

"We've all seen how easy it is to get sucked into an ugly morass. I think it also might be just as easy (maybe even easier, with practice) to keep moving into the spirit. That thing about "love is more catching than hate" really IS true -- and it's far more energizing - particularly if we begin to approach a critical mass... "

"I get the sense that everyone at UBRON wants to believe in this manner of growing together -- and we're all kinda standing around waiting to see if it's really gonna happen, or is it gonna be just another nice dream that never quite gets realized."

"But we all know that it's up to us. It'll be exactly what we make it be. I'm willing to put my soul on the line here -- and I'm willing to trust that others will do the same, if they sense a chance of making it work."

"UBRON is not about who is right and who is wrong, who is popular and who is not. It is also not a democracy. Just as your website is not a democracy, but rather an arena for you to showcase your creativity, UBRON is my creation - dedicated to sharing the quest for spiritual values with my brothers and sisters. It might be likened to an informal "open house" for discussion of uplifting ideas and ideals."

"As "hostess" of this gathering, I assume responsibility to see that my company is comfortable and that everything is running smoothly. If one of the guests is rude, creates dissension or distress for the others, he will be shown the door. No vote necessary. It's just that simple, my friend."

"We are here to look for ways of growing in spirit and brotherly love, not to argue politics or harass others that don't see things the same way we do. Anyone whose only interest is politics and complaints about the "opposition" is in the wrong place. We are here to share our spiritual insight and support each other's quests for faith, wisdom and grace."

"We are open to all that enter in the spirit of seeking understanding and enlightenment, willing to help and learn from each other."

"Boors, bigots, evildoers, egotists, naysayers, whiners and complainers are welcome to listen in silence until such time as they may have something positive to contribute. If they don't like the ambience at UBRON, they are perfectly free to leave and "prosecute their nefarious designs" elsewhere."

"The only "rule" at UBRON is that we treat each other with the same respect we would like for ourselves."

"I sincerely hope I have made myself crystal clear and that you now better understand the purpose and intent of Urantia Book Readers Online Network. If you cannot subscribe to these concepts, I will be more than happy to cancel your membership."

"Several people have brought up questions about posting messages and replies to UBRON. We need to back up a little bit and look at what we've got here from a different perspective."

"UBRON is not a simple automated listserver email discussion list. It is a live online interactive DATABASE, designed as a central registry where UB readers can find and interact with other UB readers. It is built and maintained by the members themselves. As each new person joins, he completes a registration form that is then posted to the database and becomes his personal resume for introducing himself to others."

"Members can change the information in their resumes at any time simply by logging in, changing the data in the various registration slots, and resubmitting the form to post the changes to the database. This is also the means of controlling the status of your account. For instance, if you're going to be away and would prefer not to receive mail during that time, just log in, change the "dynamic email" slot from "yes" to "no" and resubmit the form, changing it back again upon your return."

"This is not just a talk group -- it's a NETWORK -- a place to share, trade, barter, interact, team up, make things happen... "

"How many have availed yourselves of the opportunity to learn more about your fellow networkers by roaming around the membership list? We're a fascinating bunch of people from all walks of life all over the world (all continents except Antarctica), and with the addition of the new search engines, it's now possible to look for others by keyword searches, such as interests or geographic proximity."

"The fact that we can post messages to our network by dynamic email is a bonus function of this technology."

"ALL messages are posted in the archive, where ANY visitor to the site (member or not) can read them. Each time you post something, you have the option to post it to the website archive only, or to be more aggressive and send email copies to the entire list."

"As with all UBRON database functions, access for posting and editing messages and replies is gained through LOGGING IN to your personal registration page:

"Post NEW Message" is a direct link at the top of the registration page. "Post REPLY" is accessed by logging in, clicking on "Message Archive," clicking the message you wish to answer, then clicking "Post Reply" at the top of that page.

"Edit/Delete" is accessed by clicking "My Private Resume," where all your messages are listed at the bottom, each with clickable links for either reading or editing.

"If you receive a UBRON email and wish to make a public reply, the quickest way to do so is to click on the homepage link at the very bottom of the email, LOG IN, go to the archive and click on the archived copy of the message, where you can then click "Post Reply."

"The bottom line here is that UBRON is a database network, and to access the database functions, it is always necessary to go to the website and log in."

"For those not familiar with UBRON general policy, I'm writing to make sure everyone understands that our aim here is to share positive communications concerning spiritual study, ideas, growth and inspiration. We're here to seek ways of bringing about greater understanding among people and spread "the benign virus of love."

"Political argument is amply available in numerous other venues and is not encouraged or welcome on UBRON."

"Most of our membership has expressed delight at finding a Urantia Book forum dedicated to supporting our spiritual growth rather than becoming mired in political battles."

"Certainly, politics has its place -- just not on UBRON. Thanks to all for respecting this policy."

"UBRON is about sharing our spiritual lives. We are not here to nit- pick or argue. If you have a problem, take it up directly with the involved parties or me privately."

"Please respect our desire to maintain UBRON as a safe haven where spiritual supportiveness prevails and we can engage in peaceful, cooperative interactions."

"Politics per se is not necessarily a problem. While many people are quite civil, rational and responsible about expressing their ideas and opinions, some others seem constitutionally incapable of discussing anything without launching into unpleasant diatribes and unkind personal attacks. Some are so convinced of the "rightness" of their views, that they cannot resist arguing ad nauseum or trying to bludgeon everyone else into submission. There's an inherent tendency for political "debate" to descend through various levels of "argument" into "all-out war." This does NOT promote healthy interaction on a spiritual plane. We won't find our higher spirit nature by descending to our lowest level of animal behavior. We're aiming in the opposite direction here."

"I look for sufficient maturity from UBRON members that good manners and honest concern for each others' feelings should tend to keep things on an even keel. The need for rigid rules and external censorship is in inverse proportion to the individual capacity for enlightenment, self- discipline and moderation among any group. Would that manners alone might keep us headed in the right direction!"

"I'm always mindful of the image of Jesus leaving his disciples to discuss among themselves regarding how best to manage their worldly affairs, while he sought contemplation and communion with our heavenly father. He *always* pointed the way to the spirit and refused to become hung up on details of a material nature. With a nod to the necessity for politics in managing our collective material existence, my dream for UBRON is that we dedicate our energies to exploring how we can bring about better connections within the kingdom of the spirit through our collective superconscious efforts."

"Politics will always be with us. The real challenge is to engage our minds and hearts so deeply in the world of the spirit that we become truly spirit-led in all things. The more people actually place premium priority on seeking spiritual guidance *first* in their lives, the more enlightened, thoughtful, loving, responsible and wise will our human political interactions inevitably become... "

"P.1823 - §3 "Let me assure you, once and for all, that, if you dedicate your lives to the work of the kingdom, all your real needs shall be supplied. Seek the greater thing, and the lesser will be found therein; ask for the heavenly, and the earthly shall be included. The shadow is certain to follow the substance."

"The bottom line here is that we are all expected to treat our fellow UBRON members with respect, kindness, thoughtfulness and genuine regard for their feelings and sense of well being. If you cannot do this, please remain quiet, or have your membership cancelled."

"Manners, not opinions, were responsible for (a former member’s) recent suspension from UBRON. By the time we reach adulthood, we should all have learned how to be courteous to others, whether in person or on a public mailing list. "

"Please be aware that Urantia Book Readers Online Network was created, paid for and maintained solely by Susan Sarfaty and now, Bruce Schuman. While all who may be interested are welcome to join, members should understand that their participation on this website is at the discretion and as guests of the site owners."

"The only rule for behavior on UBRON is that we treat each other with the same respect we'd like for ourselves. "

"We are NOT here to debate politics or "argue" anything. "

"The purpose of UBRON is to foster more spiritual living among ourselves and help spread "the benign virus of love" across the planet. "

"We are here to find ways of creating uplifting "spiritual fragrance" and see what we might do to pave the way for light and life on our world. "

"We are here to focus on our similarities, rather than our differences, because at that junction is where we will learn the language of peace and discover the nature of true reality."

"In the past, topics were mostly cosmetic concepts across the tops of our messages, because there was really only one choice: receive all mail or not receive any mail. "

"Today, we have quite a few more sophisticated options available to us. As before, a member can log in to his registration page and control whether or not he receives dynamic email, also whether he wants to be a member of SinglesNet, Politics, or any other topic. If you don’t want mail from a topic, set that Topic to NO on your dynamic e-mail settings. "

"A visit to the revised Dynamic Email page (after logging in, of course) provides a whole new array of choices. We can now also adjust our main dynamic email "yes" or "no" settings from here. And the bottom section of the page lists all topics and allows us to subscribe individually to our preferred topics of interest. For instance, if we don't particularly care for poetry, we can eliminate that topic from our personal subscription list. "

"Now that we have these choices, let us please be wise in using them. For example: "Family Life" might not be a topic of interest to someone who doesn't have a family. Messages on that topic should be properly labeled as such, so that non-family types can avoid that topic, if they choose. "

"Or "Prayer and Worship" -- this can be an intensely personal experience which some people would prefer to keep private. If you wish to share your worshipful thoughts, please be so kind as to post them in the appropriate category, so that others who don't wish to read this kind of material can spare themselves by de-selecting that topic from their subscription lists. "

"This separation of topics will become increasingly important as we continue to grow in the size of our membership. The more people who participate, the more necessary it becomes to break ourselves down into smaller, more manageable, interest groups." "So please, if you haven't already done so, hop over to the UBRON website and check out the revised options available on the "Dynamic Email" page. All members are automatically subscribed to all topics as the default setting. Just choose "yes" or "no" beside each topic and then click the "submit" button at the bottom, to enter your personal choices into the database. Members are also encouraged to suggest new topics, so that our options remain relevant and interesting to our subscribers."

"As has been amply demonstrated in recent days, my own inclination is that a policy of benevolent non-interference (i.e., allowing The Supreme to do its thing) seems to work out pretty well in the long run. After all, we're a family, and families have to learn to get along with each other."

"Our only criterion for UBRON participation has always been that we make every effort to treat each other with respect. Different folks seem to have very different tolerances for what this means (usually while loudly pointing a finger at "the other guy"), and things can therefore sometimes get a little thorny between those with various contrasting agendas to push."

"But the bottom line remains: PERSONAL ATTACKS ON OTHERS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR ON UBRON."

"If things get too heavy once in a while, it's far wiser to look for ways to inject light, love, and even better yet, LAUGHTER, into the situation than to waste our energy arguing about who's right or wrong (particularly when anything shy of a Supreme viewpoint can only be partial, at best.)"

"However, some people just love to argue, and may insist on pushing it to the point where the umpire finally throws 'em out of the game..."

"You can obfuscate the issue with off-topic questions 'til the cows come home, but I do not accept the proposition that you don't have the brains to figure this out for yourselves..."

"It would certainly be nice to expect that those who have the benefit of the UB teachings might be more finely tuned in to actually living by these teachings, but such is obviously not always the case, so we can only deal with the reality with which we're faced -- human nature at work in its myriad guises. Those of us who would live in the light must accept this reality as a starting point."

"And to those of you who feel you *must* engage in "debate" with others who continually annoy you with their attitudes, opinions, agendas, or debating styles, just please don't expect that you will ever get them to admit that you are right and they are wrong."

"As stated in the UBRON Philosophy, *being* right is not the issue -- *doing* right is the real challenge -- finding loving ways of relating to and respecting each other as interrelated members of the same harmonious whole..."

And finally… just before Susan left us… her last substantive post…

"Many of you may have noted my low online profile of late, and correctly ascribed it to the preoccupations of dealing with my personal circumstances regarding my cancer diagnosis. I confess I've not kept up with all the UBRON traffic, and in fact, have remained woefully behind in all my personal correspondence as well. My apologies, love and gratitude to all who have written -- Know that I'm diligently plowing into my "IN" box as time and energy allow... "

"I've returned to my roots on the east coast (Virginia Beach) in order to be closer to my family, putting my time to good use in communion with my loved ones and "getting my affairs in order." Life is in God's hands, and it remains to be seen what his love has in store for me. I have no doubt, no fear -- I only observe the unfolding of each day as it comes and do my best to deal with whatever he places in my path each moment. Whatever it may be, there's no doubt that love is the motivating force, and I am guided accordingly... "

"I've hesitated openly discussing the projected "terminal" nature of my illness and what effects this might have on UBRON. Being essentially a private person, as well as not wanting to rock our public boat with my personal issues, I've been quietly facing each day's needs with whatever energy and grace is available to me, leaving you, my friends, to carry on the UBRON vision and traditions as best you can, according to your best understanding of what we are about and where we should be going. "

"As co-creator and co-owner of the website, Bruce has been doing his best to keep up with the questions and challenges that normally come my way, keeping me informed and regularly consulting my opinion on UBRON "current events." He's been covering a task which we've always previously handled as a team -- my 30-some years as a UB reader dedicated to interfaith outreach and spreading "the benign virus of love," combined with his internet and programming know-how and deep devotion to building spiritual bridges across religious and cultural chasms."

"With our phenomenal growth has come a multitude of questions and problems, almost always involving how people choose to interact within our little enclave. As Richard Omura noted in an earlier message, most of those who've been around and grown with us since the beginning are well grounded in UBRON tradition and philosophy, while many of the newer folks seem to have come on board with sometimes very different ideas of what we are, or what they think we should be, about. It seems appropriate that there be a little education process to help these newbies understand, appreciate and agree to abide by the ideals that have shaped us and brought us to where we are today."

"It appears we've arrived at a new crossroads, and it's time to lay out our ideas for what's to come. But first a little review and perspective:

When I arrived in UB cyberspace several years ago, after many years on my own away from all UB community activities, I joined all the available lists and joyfully prepared myself for a feast of spiritual sharing with like-minded souls who would speak my language and provide fellowship and inspiration as we worked our way toward light and life for ourselves and the planet.

WRONG!!! Imagine my dismay when I discovered not only the schism between the Foundation and Fellowship (it was so bad that the Brotherhood didn't even exist anymore!) -- but that almost all the voices daring to speak up online were behaving like hard-line terrorists, lobbing Molotov cocktails at each other like there was no tomorrow! Where was all the loving spiritual supportiveness I had grown to expect from all the beautiful beings I had met over the years at past conferences and study sessions?

(Here is where I must insert that I was quickly rescued from total disillusionment, by some lovely ladies who invited me to sit with them on their virtual "Porch," where we contentedly created a much more civilized cyberworld, thus counterbalancing much of the negativity being espoused on the other lists. I am forever indebted to the "Porchsisters" for providing me with such a warm welcome, taking me into their hearts, and helping me find my voice to share my thoughts in a safe environment.)

It gradually dawned on me that even with the benefit of the UB teachings, the UB community merely represents a microcosm of what we see in the greater world around us -- a conglomeration of HUMAN persons, ALL imperfect, each at a different stage of soul growth, with different viewpoints, differing cultural backgrounds, many and various agendas to pursue, and mostly accustomed to having to fight if they wish to be heard.

Having long since adopted the common wisdom that it's better to keep my mouth shut and have people think me a fool than to open it and provide ample proof, I've observed plenty, begun to understand more, and tried to reserve my words for themes that "light a candle" rather than "curse the darkness."

My preference has always been to avoid the politics (with attendant "debate" - which all too often quickly degenerates into ugly mudslinging and frequent justifications of perfectly awful antisocial behavior). I feel it much more productive instead to aim directly for the spirit, seek our commonalties, find our way into the light, operating from a solid grounding in God's love, helping "the invisible kingdom" become visible, assuming personal responsibility that each moment of our lives be dedicated to spreading "the benign virus of love." This is the reality that Jesus taught us.

Why allow our animal natures one more second of ascendancy over our higher awareness?

Why merely pay lip service to our knowledge that we can and should make it our sacred responsibility to love everyone we meet with the same love God bestows on us -- eventually rippling outward to penetrate and impregnate the general planetary consciousness with the idea that it's not only ok, but that we MUST trust in love?

Enter Bruce with a magnificent gift for Susie -- an internet network program that can be customized to fit any needs for any group to be able to interact on many levels and in many different ways...

Give Susie a couple of weeks to learn some basic code, write some UB- friendly text, test all the links and traffic flow patterns, and invite her friends to join in creating a comfortable and cozy "salon" where we can come with our best ideas, share our questions and problems without fear of being shot down, and begin in earnest to let the spirit move among us, guiding us toward unity and brotherhood among ourselves, as well as helping us reach outward into the world around us -- where we can share our love, as well as partake of what others may have to share with us...

"I see that it's growing late (or early, depending on your viewpoint) and this missive is growing rather lengthy. And it might be wise to go ahead and submit what I've written thus far as "Part I," with the understanding that there's more to come. I hope my words might be stimulating some truth resonance here and there, rather than boring you with a rehash of old preachments and cliches. I pray for your continued interest, if not for any appreciation of my thoughts, at least out of concern for the future of UBRON, which has taken on a life of its own and has the potential to be a very valuable tool in service to the Urantia community. "

These were Susan's words. What Rob sent us was a nice gesture, but it was not from Susan. Of that I am sure.

Let’s see what tomorrow brings folks.

In Service,

Patrick

From: Steffani M. 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24496, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24477


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Steffani,

Hi Stephen ;-)

ST:I am not twisting anything, just telling it as I see it.

SM:Well maybe you just need some new glasses :-) Or I could say "pants on fire" because you are seeing it according to another's bizarre and convoluted 'explanations' which make far less sense than the well written textbook of the 5th epochal revelation.

ST:By your logic we are to accept anything that is written in a book because it says that it was written by a celestial being. There re a lot of authors out there who will love to hear that. But there are a lot of authors who might also object to having their words lifted without credit givn, under the excuse that...God gave them o you so all laws are negated.

ST:No, Holly said it too, and others, God is not subject to your rules. You and your cohorts keep imagining that He has to follow your laws for him rather than the other way around.

UB: P.1068 p.5 & P.1444 p.3 (I'll let you find it in the Bible;-)

I hold celestial authors to spirit resonance and quality standards just the same as human authors...but only two say things that indicate that they are out of the Urth loop...and speak of that which mortals cannot know unless God reveals it to them.

And higher law does supercede the laws of men, who due to the influence of some bad examples for behavior patterns might look for reasons to rationalize breaking their own devised codes which are culture specific. Stealing or murdering is quite the Urth sport for dictators who can at least temporarily put themselves above the rules they enforce on others on a whim. Those who are faithful to do the will of God the Father are constrained by His law which is written in "the fleshy tables of the heart" according to II Corintians 3:3 Or self-governed from an inward code as RhonnaLeigh explained to you.

ST:And by your logic also, if the Bible is unreliable as a source for its inspired writings, then we should also throw out the UB for the same reasons. Even moreso because there is absolutely NO evidence to support its claims or positions. Is a Divine Counselor mentioned in ANY other manuscript or historical record?

SM: I never said the Bible is completely unreliable as a source of inspired writings...if I thought that I wouldn't use it...merely that man has contaminated them...I wouldn't be suprised if that has happened to an extent to the UB.

SM: But I have no reason to think untoward thoughts towards the gracious Divine Counselor. Doesn't get my shorts in a bunch that the Ancients of Days (plural;-) authorized the Uversa commission to send us some better information than we had been granted access to for awhile. I'd say the evidence stands on its own due to the high quality of the work...and its consistency throughout.

SM:I observed inconsistencies galore in the writings and sayings of your primary associate...and no, I'm not going to trot them out for you...since you said you have read them. Apparently these were overlooked by choice...I noticed them to steer me in the right direction for me. You go where-ever you please...it is called free will to make your own choices and decisions. I think you have made an unfortunate one but that's your druthers to do.

SM:As far as the Divine Counselor goes...He or she has a really good attitude...which is more than I can say of at least several mortals I've met. I respect and admire that...it is a characteristic I'd like to have in dealing with difficult assignments. Everyone teaches me how I do and do not want to be ;-)

old SM:---The universes are a family owned and operated business...everyone is a shareholder...and also employed at a level according to his skills, abilities, experience, expertise and interests. If you decide to skim company funds for your own projects...and you get caught...well, it is your own brothers you were scamming and holding out on...and even though your Dad owns the company...He's their Dad too. You are then history if they say so if Father gives them permission to dispense with you as they wish...and at least...if their mercy is forthcoming and you accept their forgiveness you are fired from that particular office of responsibility. If your sadness at the eventual realization of the difficulty and turmoil doesn't bring you to the point of insanity or suicide...well, you can be transferred to a branch office to rebuild trust and eventually work yourself back up to greater responsibilities more in synch with your talents and abilities again. ---

ST:Does this mean that if I get smart enough I can kick God out of his throne and take over? Of course if anyone in a position above you decides that he likes his position, and has no intention of giving it up...the name for this is a CASTE system.

SM: I already told you that is impossible. You tried and failed and wound up on this holideck...how quickly we forget! And shrimp can't be lobsters and minnows can't be tarpon merely by wishful thinking...except on a holideck of course, which is why Father built one for you. Enjoy!!!

ST: On ESG invited you to offer substantive comments to my argument...I see nothing substantive to the facts and interpretations I submitted...if anyone is playing shutes and ladders here, it is you.

SM:After sliding about as far down as one can go...I'm working on climbing the ladder...one rung at a time...and glad of the chance too! ;-) Hope to see you at the top someday... I can hardly offer substantive comments to answer the same old specious arguments...they evaporate in the light of reason and common sense ...it's tedious and boring after the 300 or so pages on hq.and only the secoraphic recorders and my hard drive may have kept track of the rest. They must be out there somewhere because someone else who was checking me out just yesterday said he found my 'conversations with Bob' with an internet search engine. As disconcerting as that might be...it isn't, because I doubt anyone cares enough to read them...but I'm really about done trying Thor-burn...I'm sure you can't run a better game than your puppet master ;-)

Ever and Always Only Love,

Steffani

Stephen

From: Tiahuan 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24501, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24491


A Message for all UBRON Members

Dear Pat,

Congratulations!

You are well on your way to becoming a diplomat of cosmic proportions.

with appreciation,

Rob

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/2/02
Msg. No: 24505, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24482


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Peter,

Discernment is about testing and validating evidence as it is presented to you. The facts are important. It is good to try to glean the best from any reading you engage in. If an author claims unchallengable authority, and proves to be unable to stand the test of the facts, then all subsequent writings are subject to greater scrutiny aren't they?

Stephen

From: Michael R B. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24506, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24491


A Message for all UBRON Members

Thank you, Patrick!

It needed to be said and finally it was said!

I know I haven't been an angel on this list in the past year, but I have changed. I know there is this false sense of security and obscurity when posting on the internet. Patrick said it well and maybe I am just repeating him. Folks, when those electrons leave your computer, travel over those trunk lines to maybe a backbone or two and then onto some local servers, and then store themselves on someone else's computer, you can't pull 'em back! Even UB readers have egos! I know I let mine get in the way of love and understanding!

And to those folks who are criticizing the UB. It's ok to do that if you have honestly read the book from cover to cover and you keep it civil. I am not worrying. I know I will "see" the Source of all Truth someday. But, please don't even waste our time if you haven't covered your bases, done some serious study and analysis, and are fairly diplomatic about it! We are getting to be old pros about this. We will either ignore you (we love that delete key!) or someone will "step" forward from the group and kill you with kindness! (Steffani, are you 'listening'?)

So, keep me in stiches, in suspense, and keep posting juicy goodies for me to read! (sorry, had to end it on a corny note)

Peace and Love, Mike (Sixosix, the Reformed One) Bain

From: Carol F. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24507, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24478


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Stephen, what is your definition of 'substantive'?

As I pointed out to you before we can use the Foreword to help us with the language problem you are having. One of the aspects of difficulty in interpretation has been that word meanings have changed even since this book was written.

P.1 It is exceedingly difficult to present enlarged concepts and advanced truth, in our endeavor to expand cosmic consciousness and enhance spiritual perception, when we are restricted to the use of a circumscribed language of the realm. But our mandate admonishes us to make every effort to convey our meanings by using the word symbols of the English tongue. We have been instructed to introduce new terms only when the concept to be portrayed finds no terminology in English which can be employed to convey such a new concept partially or even with more or less distortion of meaning.

From: Carol F. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24510, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


unceasing exposure

"There was war in heaven; Michael's commander and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer, Satan, and the apostate princes); and the dragon and his rebellious angels fought but prevailed not."

This "war in heaven" was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia. In the early days of the struggle Lucifer held forth continuously in the planetary amphitheater.

Gabriel conducted an unceasing exposure of the rebel sophistries from his headquarters taken up near at hand.

The various personalities present on the sphere who were in doubt as to their attitude would journey back and forth between these discussions until they arrived at a final decision.

From page 606 of the Urantia Papers

From: Carol F. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24513, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Prayer & Worship


psalm 55

Listen to my prayer, O God, do not ignore my plea; hear me and answer me. My thoughts trouble me and I am distraught.

I said, "Oh, that I had the wings of a dove! I would fly away and be at rest-- I would flee far away and stay in the desert; I would hurry to my place of shelter, far from the tempest and storm."

If an enemy were insulting me, I could endure it; if a foe were raising himself against me, I could hide from him. But it is you, my companion, my close friend, with whom I once enjoyed sweet fellowship as we walked with the throng at the house of God.

My companion attacks his friends; he violates his covenant. His speech is smooth as butter, yet war is in his heart; his words are more soothing than oil, yet they are drawn swords.

But as for me, I trust in You.

From: Rick W. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24514, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study


JESUS AND ANTAGONISM

Dear Siblings,

This quote struck home the other day.

P.1671. As Jesus mingled with the people, they found him entirely free from the superstitions of that day. He was free from religious prejudices; he was never intolerant. He had nothing in his heart resembling social antagonism.

These questions arose as I pondered this quote: What are the limits of antagonism for us humans? What is the cause of antagonism? Is it appropriate to attempt to tame antagonism personally and socially? Or perhaps, does antagonism serve a purpose? Were the revelators making a point by weaving together superstition, prejudice, intolerance and antagonism?

Love to all, Rick.

From: Larry G. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24515, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24484


A few comments...

Dear Rob...

Yes, that you call it an exception does clarify things a bit. Although as you say, it does put a gray kink into the Urantia Papers, for it can then be said that any statement within can also be laid aside when an exception occurs.

Is this the first exception you have come upon?

Was your communication direct with Susan?

Why do you feel she was given permission? I take this to mean she sought this permission and it wasn't you seeking her out.

I would inquire of the Spirit within but I don't have the same linkage and must figure out things the harder way it seems. My questions pertaining to method are aimed at conceiving of this. I'm not looking for signs or proof, only a glimpse at the reasonable process of obtainment which generated this exception.

At the very least, is there a reason you cannot yourself expand on how you accomplished this?

* * * * * * *

From: Carol F. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24516, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24514


JESUS AND ANTAGONISM

Hi Rick, you would first need to get an agreement on the word 'antagonism'. Many people today would not agree that Jesus was free from antagonisms when we look at some of his actions and words. I don't think he was antagonistic, I think he was honest.

P.1671. He had nothing in his heart resembling social antagonism.

P.1907 "Mistake not my words. I bear no malice toward these chief priests and rulers who even now seek my destruction; I have no ill will for these scribes and Pharisees who reject my teachings. I know that many of you believe in secret, and I know you will openly profess your allegiance to the kingdom when my hour comes. But how will your rabbis justify themselves since they profess to talk with God and then presume to reject and destroy him who comes to reveal the Father to the worlds?

P.1907 "Woe upon you, false teachers, blind guides! What can be expected of a nation when the blind lead the blind? They both shall stumble into the pit of destruction.

P.1907 "Woe upon you who dissimulate when you take an oath! You are tricksters since you teach that a man may swear by the temple and break his oath, but that whoso swears by the gold in the temple must remain bound. You are all fools and blind. You are not even consistent in your dishonesty, for which is the greater, the gold or the temple which has supposedly sanctified the gold? You also teach that, if a man swears by the altar, it is nothing; but that, if one swears by the gift that is upon the altar, then shall he be held as a debtor. Again are you blind to the truth, for which is the greater, the gift or the altar which sanctifies the gift? How can you justify such hypocrisy and dishonesty in the sight of the God of heaven?

From: Charlotte W. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24517, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24514


JESUS AND ANTAGONISM

Dear Rick and All,

I'll take a stab at this one. It's a great quote. I think there are two main reasons we still use antagonism in dealing with each other: 1) We believe that we can't help it. We think that our emotions control our behavior and that we are swept up in them. We use phrases to describe this such as, "I got so mad I couldn't think," or "I have an anger problem," or "I have a short temper. Everyone in my family has one." Because we use these types of phrases, we feel justified in continuing these behaviors even though we can see the negative impact using them has on our relationships. Sometimes we continue using these antagonistic behaviors so long we destroy marriages, or relationships with our children, the most important relationships in our lives.

The second reason we continue using behaviors like antagonism is that those behaviors seem to "work." We think that by using antagonism we can control the behaviors of those around us. We think we know what is best for the people we interact with. We think we know what they "should" believe and think and how they "should" behave and when they don't choose what we want them to choose, we try antagonism, because we believe that we might be able to force them to change their behavior from fear.

I don't think we'll stop this type of behavior until we realize that all our feelings come about from making choices of behavior. If I choose to yell and to think angry thoughts about my fellows, if I choose to believe that I know how they "should" behave, and I'm willing to try to spend my time "making" them behave the way I want, then these behaviors and the resulting damage to relationships will continue on and on.

However, I am very hopeful that humans are on the verge (one thousand years or so) of understanding that when God gave us free will, He really meant that we are free to choose our behaviors and the resultant emotions we want to use in our lives. We can't choose the "accidents of time and space" that we may encounter on this planet, but how we handle them, how we choose to behave, how we choose to think, is completely up to us.

I have found that with the very early beginnings of an understanding of this concept, my entire life and all my relationships are changing for the better, so I can only imagine how wonderful it will be when all of us learn how to use our free will to make the choices that will bring us closer to one another instead of pushing us apart. That, I suppose, will be the dawning of the Era of Light and Life. Ummm.....

Love, Charlotte

From: Larry G. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24518, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24366


Stephen T's new logic

Dear Stephen...

As you have not replied to the below, I assume that your are in agreement with it?

Posted once more for your perusal:

So we both agree that heaven of heavens and universes are two different things, the former created by the Universal Father and the latter by the Sons of God, or which could be equally defined as the Sons of the Universal Father. I will assume you agree with this equal definition but I'm sure you'll let me know if you don't. The Universal Father by the creation of His Sons can be said to have created 'all things and beings,' even though it is the Sons themselves which created the universes (all things and beings) because the Sons created time/space with the Universal Father's power, patterns and mandates.

More accurately, the Universal Father created all things and beings THROUGH the Sons of the Universal Father. No Sons. No universes. How could the Universal Father (God) usurp Himself as you asked? How could the Universal Father be only a 'Son of God' as you question when he created these Sons.

Of course, if you'd have just glanced at the anology you might have understood what the prophet was really saying instead of cruelly twisting upon a hair's turning how the Father could not have created all things and beings while at the same time these were created by the Sons of the Father. I stand in awe on how we might finely masticate this further upon your reply.

*

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24519, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24507


Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Carol,

What I meant by substantive is having to do with or directly relating to the evidence for the case I presented.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24520, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24518


Stephen T's new logic

Larry,

Posted once more for your perusal:

ST: Thank you for reposting this.

So we both agree that heaven of heavens and universes are two different things, the former created by the Universal Father and the latter by the Sons of God, or which could be equally defined as the Sons of the Universal Father. I will assume you agree with this equal definition but I'm sure you'll let me know if you don't.

ST: I agree with you to the extent that I agree that the UB says those things in its first paragraph of its first paper. What I believe in that regard is irrelevent to the discussion here.

The Universal Father by the creation of His Sons can be said to have created 'all things and beings,' even though it is the Sons themselves which created the universes (all things and beings) because the Sons created time/space with the Universal Father's power, patterns and mandates.

ST: But I made the point that the Prophet clearly makes a distinction as to the creative domains of the Father, and those of the sons, and that the UB places the creative domain of the UF in the domain designated by the prophet as that of the sons through the use of the words "things and beings".

More accurately, the Universal Father created all things and beings THROUGH the Sons of the Universal Father. No Sons. No universes. How could the Universal Father (God) usurp Himself as you asked? How could the Universal Father be only a 'Son of God' as you question when he created these Sons.

ST: You are making the assumption that the UF and Father are two names for the same entity. This may not be the case. The UB is very careful to designate God by different names in reference to their functional differences. This begs the question...why is there a lack on uniformity of usage in this paragraph in question? Consider this example: The horse's coat was gleaming in the sunlight. And the colt was strolling in the corral. And he gave a neigh which was heard from the house...are we talking about one, two, or three different horses? And does the third sentence even refer to a horse? One mig at first glance assume that all three sentences are referring to the same horse because they are grouped together...but a careful reading might lead you to ask the question...how many horses are we talking about?

Of course, if you'd have just glanced at the anology you might have understood what the prophet was really saying instead of cruelly twisting upon a hair's turning how the Father could not have created all things and beings while at the same time these were created by the Sons of the Father. I stand in awe on how we might finely masticate this further upon your reply.

ST: I simply took a careful read of what it actually says, and posed the interpetation for review. I did not twist anything at all.

Stephen

From: Peter H. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24522, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Humor


Channelling Lucifer

Hi All!

I decided that it would be wise to ignore the warnings in The URANTIA Book, to follow Tomas and other channelled Purported Celestials instead of Jesus, and to give "stillness practice" a try.

I successfully stopped all my thinking and focused my consciousness on what was happening inside: not much until I actually contacted Lucifer in his/her black-hole world prison! Yes, the real Lucifer was talking to me in my head. The first thing he/she did was to ask about Robert Burgess, who he/she says falsely claims to be Caligastia! He/she said Burgess wouldn't make a good pimple on the real Caligastia's butt (Lucifer said the "a.." word). Then he/she asked me to tell Rob Davis that he/she is doing a "very good job".

I said, "Hey Lucky," -- that's his/her nickname, you understand, and he/she asked me to use it -- "I thought you couldn't communicate out of your prison". He/she informed me, however, that Michael is making a whole lot of *exceptions* these days. In fact Lucky has talked "Mick" (Michael's nickname according to Lucifer) into making an another exception by allowing him/her to have the final adjudication of his/her case heard by an earth judge in the USA, so Lucifer will likely soon be out on the street. He/she says that rumors of his/her previous termination are greatly exaggerated.

I asked him/her what he/she thought about UBRON, and he/she replied that he/she just "loooooovvved it". He/she really heaps the praise on religious groups which ignore Jesus' instructions about how to run things. In fact Lucifer (because of another one of Mick's latest exceptions to the general rule -- "Rules shmules," Lucifer says Mick is now saying) has actually *joined* UBRON under a phoney "screen name", and challenged me to guess who it is.

I asked him/her if he/she has accepted Michael's mercy yet, and he/she told me that real "mercy" wouldn't require him/her to change his/her mind about things. He/she also told me that "Purple is a faggot color!" And I knew these things were true because I heard them in my own head. However then He/she also said, "Drink Budweiser" and "Osama bin Laden is a Democrat" (but I had been hearing these statements repeated in my head even before Lucifer contacted me - - I wondered if maybe they crept in from another source?).

Lucifer quieted my doubts by assuring me that WHATEVER I heard in my head absolutely HAD to be both truth and fact, after all, it was my head wasn't it? And I was the great and wonderful *Me*? wasn't I? His logic was as inescapable as his fancy font tricks, so of course I had to agree. I mean, true is true even if Lucifer (or whatever) is its source! Osama bin Laden IS a Democrat . . . sort of . . . isn't he/she? Just because he/she is rich, pig-headed, war-minded, and treats his/her "employees" like flushed offal doesn't automatically mean he/she is a Republican, does it?

Then Lucifer told me that he/she was, "getting bored with talking to a scum lifeform which is beneath my [Lucifer's] contempt and doesn't have no tits, neither." Then suddenly -- like one of those Microsoft Windows crashes where "Esc" or "Ctrl, Alt, Delete" does absolutely nothing but make you feel stupid for trying them -- my consciousness returned to a blank, thoughtless, zomboid, black-screen, trancelike meditative state ( really spiritual, you know?). But it was so quiet I could scream! I really wished someone like Hamhock or Tomas would fill my mind with his or her generic New Age/UBook platitudes, just for the noise. I tried to contact Sunshine, but she was getting her morontia nails done, and her pc-mail ("purported celestial-mail") box was already full. As it has been for about a week, now.

After that I rebooted my normal, picky, over-analytical, fearful mind- set coupled with my usual hidden motives and hateful attitude; and I decided to post this true personal religious experience in order to convince any lurking newbies that God indeed does exist! And that The URANTIA Book is exactly as it says it is -- whatever that means!

[NOTE: I would like to point out that I do, too, have tits . . . little flat ones -- it's just the *navel* that I lack.]

***PLEASE DON'T CRITICIZE MY PERSONAL RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY!!!! AND DON'T COMPARE IT WITH THE URANTIA BOOK'S TEACHINGS!!!!***

Remember:

"Real religion is whatever!"
[198: §4: ¶1, Miranda's Received Expanded Version]

"Jesus tolerated everything but bad manners, bad words, and bad breath. He was especially tolerant of Pharasees, Lawyers, temple money changers, and channellers."
[148: §7: ¶2 to 5, TeaM-Channelled Corrective Edition]

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24525, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24510


unceasing exposure

Carol,

Worthy of note is the fact that the UB has not made public the text of the manifesto in question. Gabriel's "unceasing exposure" did not go so far as to include it in the UB. Having only one side of the story presented makes it difficult for us to make a judgement about what that one side is saying or the truth of the case. In my opinion, I find it conspicuous by its absence. If you heard only the prosecutors arguments without any being privy to any of the evidence to examine, or even so much as a defense attorney's arguments, could you pass judgement on the parties accused? I couldn't. Just some food for thought.

Stephen

From: Steve R. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24526, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Humor , Reply to: 24522


Channelling Lucifer

Well Peter, I'm glad you revealed whom your celestial contact really is! Of course I don't think it's been any mystery, your crass interpretations and abusive behavior so sarcastically cloaked in your egocentric views are very easy to see through. I would much rather be exposed to Rob's brand of spiritual interpretation, at least I can feel some heart there, though I follow my own guide. This diatribe of yours isn't even impressive in it's creativity unless you admire low brow entertainment. I think you've been watching to much "Saturday Night Live".

From: Steve R. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24527, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24525


unceasing exposure

Stephen, I have not read all of your posts, but it seems clear you have problems with the UB. Why do you even bother to come to a forum of UB believers and attempt to denigrate their source? Would you presume to walk into a church and usurp the pulpit to your own views?? Would you stand in front of the congregation and challenge every nuance of the Bible?? What is your aim? Do you wish to elevate yourself by deflating others beliefs? I bet you think your doing a public service huh! Why bother? Why not just move on into whatever you realm is?

From: Rick W. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24528, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Humor , Reply to: 24522


Channelling Lucifer

Oh Peter,

You got me with that one, whew.

Finally your true talent emerged, SATIRE!

Now Steffani, all in good fun. Maybe you should channel Divine Mother and post it.

But nobody can channel the IAM, he is mine and if anyone tries, just know that I am the only IAM legit channel and I will report violators to the UBCC (UB Channelers Commission) Guild!

Love or else, Rick W.

Peter posts:

Hi All! I decided that it would be wise to ignore the warnings in The URANTIA Book, to follow Tomas and other channelled Purported Celestials instead of Jesus, and to give "stillness practice" a try.

I successfully stopped all my thinking and focused my consciousness on what was happening inside: not much until I actually contacted Lucifer in his/her black-hole world prison! Yes, the real Lucifer was talking to me in my head. The first thing he/she did was to ask about Robert Burgess, who he/she says falsely claims to be Caligastia! He/she said Burgess wouldn't make a good pimple on the real Caligastia's butt (Lucifer said the "a.." word). Then he/she asked me to tell Rob Davis that he/she is doing a "very good job".

I said, "Hey Lucky," -- that's his/her nickname, you understand, and he/she asked me to use it -- "I thought you couldn't communicate out of your prison". He/she informed me, however, that Michael is making a whole lot of *exceptions* these days. In fact Lucky has talked "Mick" (Michael's nickname according to Lucifer) into making an another exception by allowing him/her to have the final adjudication of his/her case heard by an earth judge in the USA, so Lucifer will likely soon be out on the street. He/she says that rumors of his/her previous termination are greatly exaggerated.

I asked him/her what he/she thought about UBRON, and he/she replied that he/she just "loooooovvved it". He/she really heaps the praise on religious groups which ignore Jesus' instructions about how to run things. In fact Lucifer (because of another one of Mick's latest exceptions to the general rule -- "Rules shmules," Lucifer says Mick is now saying) has actually *joined* UBRON under a phoney "screen name", and challenged me to guess who it is.

I asked him/her if he/she has accepted Michael's mercy yet, and he/she told me that real "mercy" wouldn't require him/her to change his/her mind about things. He/she also told me that "Purple is a faggot color!" And I knew these things were true because I heard them in my own head. However then He/she also said, "Drink Budweiser" and "Osama bin Laden is a Democrat" (but I had been hearing these statements repeated in my head even before Lucifer contacted me - - I wondered if maybe they crept in from another source?).

Lucifer quieted my doubts by assuring me that WHATEVER I heard in my head absolutely HAD to be both truth and fact, after all, it was my head wasn't it? And I was the great and wonderful *Me*wasn't I? His logic was as inescapable as his fancy font tricks, so of course I had to agree. I mean, true is true even if Lucifer (or whatever) is its source! Osama bin Laden IS a Democrat . . . sort of . . . isn't he/she? Just because he/she is rich, pig-headed, war-minded, and treats his/her "employees" like flushed offal doesn't automatically mean he/she is a Republican, does it?

Then Lucifer told me that he/she was, "getting bored with talking to a scum lifeform which is beneath my [Lucifer's] contempt and doesn't have no tits, neither." Then suddenly -- like one of those Microsoft Windows crashes where "Esc" or "Ctrl, Alt, Delete" does absolutely nothing but make you feel stupid for trying them -- my consciousness returned to a blank, thoughtless, zomboid, black- screen, trancelike meditative state (really spiritual, you know?). But it was so quiet I could scream! I really wished someone like Hamhock or Tomas would fill my mind with his or her generic New Age/UBook platitudes, just for the noise. I tried to contact Sunshine, but she was getting her morontia nails done, and her pc- mail ("purported celestial-mail") box was already full. As it has been for about a week, now.

After that I rebooted my normal, picky, over-analytical, fearful mind- set coupled with my usual hidden motives and hateful attitude; and I decided to post this true personal religious experience in order to convince any lurking newbies that God indeed does exist! And that The URANTIA Book is exactly as it says it is -- whatever that means!

[NOTE: I would like to point out that I do, too, have tits . . . little flat ones -- it's just the *navel* that I lack.]

***PLEASE DON'T CRITICIZE MY PERSONAL RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY!!!! AND DON'T COMPARE IT WITH THE URANTIA BOOK'S TEACHINGS!!!! ***

Remember:

"Real religion is whatever!" [198: §4: ¶1, Miranda's Received Expanded Version] "Jesus tolerated everything but bad manners, bad words, and bad breath. He was especially tolerant of Pharasees, Lawyers, temple money changers, and channellers." [148: §7: ¶2 to 5, TeaM-Channelled Corrective Edition]

Sincerely,

Peter

Peter Holley http://ubron.org/ub/ub011.cfm?V098=U_gate UBRON - Urantia Book Readers Online Network http://ubron.org/ub.cfm

To reply to this message: http://ubron.org/ub/forum/ub090k.cfm?V098=EW&V100=24522

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24529, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24527


unceasing exposure

Steve,

---Stephen, I have not read all of your posts, but it seems clear you have problems with the UB. Why do you even bother to come to a forum of UB believers and attempt to denigrate their source? Would you presume to walk into a church and usurp the pulpit to your own views?? Would you stand in front of the congregation and challenge every nuance of the Bible?? What is your aim? Do you wish to elevate yourself by deflating others beliefs? I bet you think your doing a public service huh! Why bother? Why not just move on into whatever you realm is? ---

ST: To quote the UB..."Intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of one's belief. No man is at any time disturbed by his neighbor's attitude when he has perfect confidence in the truth of that which he wholeheartedly believes. Courage is the confidence of thoroughgoing honesty about those things which one professes to believe. Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals."

Stephen

From: William W. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24531, Sent by Email: No Topic:
Spiritual Living


Freedom is overrated

I was hiking on a mountain that overlooks the valley where I live. A friend and I went up there to see if we could view our houses from there. At the top of the mountain there are a series of communication towers. There is one big microwave tower that stands out from the rest. It has large white oval shaped cones facing in different directions. My friend and I noticed that the white faces had little dark marks on them. After a few minutes we realized that the marks were bullet holes. People had been using the tower as target practice. Other signs of destruction were also seen up in that quiet place. A wire fence was torn down and windows of the attached buildings were smashed. There was an old marble statue that had been erected many years ago. It seems to have been a saint who was blessing the people in the valley below. But the only thing left of the statue was the legs and the stand. Vandals had smashed the rest. Maybe the people who did this didn’t like the idea of being blessed.

I hike quite a bit, and so in the woods I have often found the remains of unbelievable human behavior. The skeletal remains of cars, stripped of everything including the engines, left to rot miles from the nearest road. Junk tires, foam insulation, plastic sheets, dumped deep in the evergreens. The remains of buildings, most likely ghost towns, spray painted or just smashed to bits. This behavior has caused me to wonder why people do crazy things in the woods. Why go to all of the trouble of traveling miles from home just to get drunk around a camp fire and smash beer bottles on the ground? The answer that I have come up with is that people feel free in the woods. With no one else around they feel released from the restrictions that society places on them and they think that they can do anything. And by anything that includes destroying property that doesn’t belong to them and/or permanently damaging natural habitat that belongs in the public trust. And so my question to you is; is this what freedom looks like?

I certainly hope not. If freedom means that I can do anything that I want to do, including hurting others, then the free life is not a life worth living. So if I reject this common notion of freedom, then what is the alternative? The religious answer would be to seek to do God’s will. This has always seemed to be counter intuitive. Jesus said, "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." But that would mean that I would be doing what God wants and not whatever I want. Maybe it’s the very fact that we are willing to give up something that frees us. If I choose to do what I want, am I free? Or am I just giving into random emotions that change faster than the wind direction? Is it really a free will choice to smash a statue? Or am I enslaved to anger and frustration whose source even I am not even fully aware of? If I choose to do what God wants me to do am I giving up freedom of choice? Or am I just replacing actions based on emotional responses for actions based on stimulus from a source that is looking out for my best interests? Our current day idea of freedom is overrated. True freedom comes from God.

I want to get away from the modern concept of freedom and replace it with a concept of service. Whom shall we serve? Our own out of control emotions that cause us to do things that we are ashamed of? Or God, who causes us to become more than we are? I choose the latter.

I can’t wait for my feet to hit the trail again. Who knows what I will find in the woods? Maybe I’ll see a Pileated Woodpecker. They are really cool. Or maybe I’ll see some rotting tires. Definitely not cool. Maybe I’ll find freedom in the woods, or maybe not. I do know who I will always find; God.

God bless you,

Bill W

From: Steffani M. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24532, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24520


Stephen T's new logic

Stephen,

Your comments about the horse, colt & neigh explains why the previous and following sentences, the entire paragraph containing them, and a general understanding of the whole story are somewhat essential in order to answer the question whether the horse in question is the colt or the same creature that is the source of the neigh.

If I had the book you pulled this out of in front of me, and it wasn't simply an example you made up on the spot, and were allowed to peruse the material, I would be able to figure out definitively the answer to your query. With only the fragment or figment you cite, it is impossible to say for sure. One can only conjecture on the probability that a single animal is involved...to be able to come to a consensually agreed upon decision that is reasonable, provides no certainty in such a case.

We who have read the UB and continue to do so on a regular basis so that we have become familiar with the language constructs used here would I think agree that Father and Universal Father here are referring to the same entity. Even so that there would be no inconsistency nor disagreement between any of those "Fathers' mentioned elsewhere down the higher levels of the chain of authority until the time/space domains of the local universes becomes a relevant factor in the discussion.

The superficial apparent discrepancy here is due only to 'quotage'. This is why the introduction to the UB carefully explains that everything in the text is to be understood in the context of the entire work.

Only Love,

Steffani

Larry,

Posted once more for your perusal:

ST: Thank you for reposting this.

So we both agree that heaven of heavens and universes are two different things, the former created by the Universal Father and the latter by the Sons of God, or which could be equally defined as the Sons of the Universal Father. I will assume you agree with this equal definition but I'm sure you'll let me know if you don't.

ST: I agree with you to the extent that I agree that the UB says those things in its first paragraph of its first paper. What I believe in that regard is irrelevent to the discussion here.

The Universal Father by the creation of His Sons can be said to have created 'all things and beings,' even though it is the Sons themselves which created the universes (all things and beings) because the Sons created time/space with the Universal Father's power, patterns and mandates.

ST: But I made the point that the Prophet clearly makes a distinction as to the creative domains of the Father, and those of the sons, and that the UB places the creative domain of the UF in the domain designated by the prophet as that of the sons through the use of the words "things and beings".

More accurately, the Universal Father created all things and beings THROUGH the Sons of the Universal Father. No Sons. No universes. How could the Universal Father (God) usurp Himself as you asked? How could the Universal Father be only a 'Son of God' as you question when he created these Sons.

ST: You are making the assumption that the UF and Father are two names for the same entity. This may not be the case. The UB is very careful to designate God by different names in reference to their functional differences. This begs the question...why is there a lack on uniformity of usage in this paragraph in question? Consider this example: The horse's coat was gleaming in the sunlight. And the colt was strolling in the corral. And he gave a neigh which was heard from the house...are we talking about one, two, or three different horses? And does the third sentence even refer to a horse? One mig at first glance assume that all three sentences are referring to the same horse because they are grouped together...but a careful reading might lead you to ask the question...how many horses are we talking about?

Of course, if you'd have just glanced at the anology you might have understood what the prophet was really saying instead of cruelly twisting upon a hair's turning how the Father could not have created all things and beings while at the same time these were created by the Sons of the Father. I stand in awe on how we might finely masticate this further upon your reply.

ST: I simply took a careful read of what it actually says, and posed the interpetation for review. I did not twist anything at all.

Stephen

From: Rick C. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24533, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living


To You

Hi Folks,

I've read many posts over the past two days. Some trouble me. I thought on this for a solution, and this is what I found.

Instead of leaving it to someone else to speak for us after we are gone, we could say what we fell, to the folks here and now.

If this were my last chance to talk with you all, I would say.

I appreciate all of you. I wish we could have shared more. I wish we could have been more patient with each other. I wish we could have looked for the good in everything. I wish we could have looked for the positive in each other more. I wish I could tell you all how wonderful it is to have known you. I wish I could have done more to magnify our Father. I wish I would have been more forgiving, merciful, and kind. I wish I would have thanked everyone who shared their thoughts and ideas.

But, you know what Folks? We are still here, and can be kind, considerate, tollerant, patient, sharing, forgiving, loving, understanding, merciful, and we still can magnify our Father.

If this was your last chance to share something with each other, what would you say?

Take care Folks

o2b1

From: Carol F. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24535, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials


a word to the wise

Written by Susan Sarfaty, 9/24/98

In answer to a person who was posting messages in Jesus’ name.

------------------------------------

All of us are here to share our thoughts, pool our resources, help each other and learn what we can from each other.

The fact that we are all Urantia Book readers means that by nature we are inquiring and open to new ideas, yet skeptical regarding sophistries and false prophets. The fact that The Urantia Book is a written work with no human name attached to it has a great deal of meaning for most of us. It means we can read its words and decide for ourselves whether or not they have meaning, whether or not these words seem true to us. It means we don't have to rely on an anointed priesthood or anyone else to tell us what we should believe or how we should live.

Many of us have learned through hardwon experience that it is unwise ever to place all one's faith in another person as the source of all our truth. Certainly, we can have teachers, mentors, helpers, friends, big brothers and sisters lend a hand along the way on our path toward greater understanding of universal reality -- but it is we who must navigate the journey ourselves, according to our own inner pilot, by our own light of truth.

My suggestion to you is that we are happy to have you share your truth with us, but that we are not interested in listening to your claims regarding your personification of Jesus. Your message will stand on its own if it speaks truth. That is all that's necessary or important. The more you proclaim your self importance as the embodiment of the Master, the less welcome is your message, and the less likely that anyone will listen.

We're glad to have you here, but please cool it with the Jesus claims. Otherwise, as someone else has already suggested, feel free to create your own website to use as your pulpit. Sincerely and with love,

Sunshine

***Be of good cheer...

From: Carol F. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24535, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials


a word to the wise

Written by Susan S. 9/24/98

In answer to a person who was posting messages in Jesus’ name.

------------------------------------

All of us are here to share our thoughts, pool our resources, help each other and learn what we can from each other.

The fact that we are all Urantia Book readers means that by nature we are inquiring and open to new ideas, yet skeptical regarding sophistries and false prophets. The fact that The Urantia Book is a written work with no human name attached to it has a great deal of meaning for most of us. It means we can read its words and decide for ourselves whether or not they have meaning, whether or not these words seem true to us. It means we don't have to rely on an anointed priesthood or anyone else to tell us what we should believe or how we should live.

Many of us have learned through hardwon experience that it is unwise ever to place all one's faith in another person as the source of all our truth. Certainly, we can have teachers, mentors, helpers, friends, big brothers and sisters lend a hand along the way on our path toward greater understanding of universal reality -- but it is we who must navigate the journey ourselves, according to our own inner pilot, by our own light of truth.

My suggestion to you is that we are happy to have you share your truth with us, but that we are not interested in listening to your claims regarding your personification of Jesus. Your message will stand on its own if it speaks truth. That is all that's necessary or important. The more you proclaim your self importance as the embodiment of the Master, the less welcome is your message, and the less likely that anyone will listen.

We're glad to have you here, but please cool it with the Jesus claims. Otherwise, as someone else has already suggested, feel free to create your own website to use as your pulpit. Sincerely and with love,

Sunshine

***Be of good cheer...

From: Mr George B. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24536, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance


Reply To Patrick

To List-op Patrick and All,

The points you make are well taken here. On my part, I will also refrain from answering any more blatant attacks from a few outspoken UBRON subscribers, who claim to be able to analyze me, and my work, from a distance as fraudulent and containing only lies, and who even claim to speak for all.

If in the past I posted my submissions under the incorrect heading, I apologize.

But if the Urantia Book states there is absolutely no contact between mortals and Urantia's Midwayers, I'd like to know the Paper, Section, and Paragraph in which it so states.

Likewise, if the Urantia Book states that the prelude to Light and Life is to arrive perhaps hundreds or thousands of years into the future, I'd like to know where it says so. But if it does not, there cannot logically be an outright denial that contact with Celestials is not on a world-wide increase, or indeed that contact individuals must necessarily belong to the Teaching Mission. They are from ALL walks of life.

Rampant claims like, "I'm in constant touch with The Spirit of Truth, and therefore I know better than you do," are as 'unprovable' as are claims of Celestial contact.

Peace can indeed reign on UBRON, with deft use of the delete button, or the "Purported Celestials" topic set to "NO", as you suggested. "Block Sender" can be a last resort when the tone of private posts becomes so rude as to be unworthy of a Ubook student.

I thank you for an even-handed approach in solving recent antagonisms, and promise you my full support from this point on.

God bless… George.

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24537, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24514


JESUS AND ANTAGONISM

Dear Rick W. and all other Sibs reading,

Antagonism can have it's positive uses, definitely. Because although cooperation is much preferable, sometimes it's employment isn't an option. We see this here all the time, because "It takes two to make a marriage work and only one for it fail".

The limits of human antagonism? To be safely practiced, are the needs of the many as compared to the few. Love, as is so frequently the answer, sets this limit.

What causes it? That condition when continuation on the present path threatens continued Life.

Is it appropriate to attempt to tame antagonism personally and socially? No, in both cases. What is appropriate is to use the antagonism as a marker of what needs to be evolved and improved for survival. I believe that is antagonism's positive purpose.

Were the revelators making a point by weaving together superstition, prejudice, intolerance and antagonism? I think they were pointing to a natural relationship between them all. Since superstition, prejudice and intolerance always limit individual and group health, they will always produce conditions that require antagonism for balance.

"Every problem contains the seed of it's solution", remember. Antagonism's negative expression IS superstition, prejudice and intolerance. So it's healing will always be through the positive employment of antagonism.

Love for all,

From: Brother Dave A J. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24541, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Our Faith Community , Reply to: 24512


communications

Hi Sister Carol HF and all here !

Thanks for posting Dr Sadler's published writing about some of the usual events associated with the unrevealed contact person, who LATER received parts I, II, and III of our four part Urantia Book.

Note carefully below, that Dr Sadler was with this person from 1911, plus 18 years, to about 1929 as stated below. It is very good that Sadler was NOT allowed to disclose the most likely DIFFERENT phenonema that happened afterward, and this included how the Parts I, II, III came in in 1934 and 1935. And Part IV came in by yet other techniques; what we have on that are just some human guesses on this mysterious process. NO WAY are these to be thoight of as mere "channeling" or "sordid spirualism" ! Just look at the results of what is produced !

From this, most people can see that there will never be on Urantia a full story of this mysterious operation, unless a divine Son of God comes here later and (unlikely) would choode to disclose more.

The Urantia Book Revealtion stands on its own, after one reads it very carefully many times. Later, today or tomoroww, I will post some details about these UBk papers from the actual UBk text ... there you will find that all parts were well planned and well supervised; this 4 part Urantia Book stands as an UNIFIED WHOLE, and page 2097 ties back to page 1. You may also see much about Jesus in parts I,II,III; and you may also see much about God in Spirit in part IV on Jesus. This is elliptic symmetry of Reality; science, philosophy, religion, Revelation, history, destiny, personal God-consciousness, cosmology, and more, all harmonized and better unified for us now in the years 1935-2935 or much longer.

Love, peace and progress with the SAME TRUE SPIRITS we all have since A.D. 30,

In His Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of Master Jesus Christ Michael,

your Brother Dave

 

Carol HF wrote a UBk quote and then some writings of Dr. William Sadler:

[Dave added bold here]

It was the work of this secondary group, ably seconded by certain of the primary corps, that brought about the co-ordination of personalities and circumstances on Urantia which finally induced the planetary celestial supervisors to initiate those petitions that resulted in the granting of the mandates making possible the series of revelations of which this presentation is a part. But it should be made clear that the midway creatures are not involved in the sordid performances taking place under the general designation of "spiritualism." page 865 The Urantia Book

Appendix from "The Mind at Mischief" by William Sadler

Page 382 "In discussions of fraudulent mediums or self-deceived psychics, the reader of this book has several times encountered the statement that there were certain exceptions to the general indictments there made, and was referred to this appendix. It now becomes my duty to explain what I had in mind when those footnotes were inserted.

In the interests of scientific accuracy on the one hand, and of strict fairness on the other, it becomes necessary to explain that there are one or two exceptions to the general statement that all cases of psychic phenomena which have come under my observation have turned out to be those of auto-psychism. It is true that practically all the physical phenomena have proved to be fraudulent, while the psychic phenomena are almost invariably explainable by the laws of psychic projection, transference, reality shifting, etc. But many years ago I did meet one trance medium, a woman now deceased, whose visions, revelations, etc., were not tainted with spiritualism. As far as my knowledge extends, at no time did she claim to be under the influence of spirit guides or controls, or to communicate messages from the spirits of departed human beings. Her work was largely of a religious nature and consisted of elevated sayings and religious admonitions. I never had the privilege of making a thoroughgoing psychic analysis of this case, and am not in a position to express myself as to the extent to which her revelations originated in the subconscious realms of her own mind. I make mention of the case merely to record the fact that I have met one instance of psychic phenomena apparently of the trance order that was not in any way associated with spiritualism.

The other exception has to do with a rather peculiar case of psychic phenomena, one which I find myself unable to classify, and which I would like very much to narrate more fully; I cannot do so here, however, because of a promise which I feel under obligation to keep sacredly. In other words, I have promised not to publish this case during the lifetime of the individual. I hope sometime to secure a modification of that promise and be able to report this case more fully because of its interesting features. I was brought in contact with it, in the summer of 1911, and I have had it under my observation more or less ever since, having been present at probably 250 of the night sessions, many of which have been attended by a stenographer who made voluminous notes.

A thorough study of this case has convinced me that it is not one of ordinary trance. While the sleep seems to be quite of a natural order, it is very profound, and so far we have never been able to awaken the subject when in this state; but the body is never rigid, and the heart action is never modified, tho respiration is sometimes markedly interfered with. This man is utterly unconscious, wholly oblivious to what takes place, and unless told about it subsequently, never knows that he has been used as a sort of clearing house for the coming and going of alleged extra-planetary personalities. In fact, he is more or less indifferent to the whole proceeding, and shows a surprising lack of interest in these affairs as they occur from time to time.

In no way are these night visitations like the seances associated with spiritualism. At no time during the period of eighteen years' observation has there been a communication from any source that claimed to be the spirit of a deceased human being. The communications which have been written, or which we have had the opportunity to hear spoken, are made by a vast order of alleged beings who claim to come from other planets to visit this world, to stop here as student visitors for study and observation when they are en route from one universe to another or from one planet to another. These communications further arise in alleged spiritual beings who purport to have been assigned to this planet for duties of various sorts.

Eighteen years of study and careful investigation have failed to reveal the psychic origin of these messages. I find myself at the present time just where I was when I started. Psychoanalysis, hypnotism, intensive comparison, fail to show that the written or spoken messages of this individual have origin in his own mind. Much of the material secured through this subject is quite contrary to his habits of thought, to the way in which he has been taught, and to his entire philosophy. In fact, of much that we have secured, we have failed to find anything of its nature in existence. Its philosophic content is quite new, and we are unable to find where very much of it has ever found human expression.

Much as I would like to report details of this case, I am not in a position to do so at present. I can only say that I have found in these years of observation that all the information imparted through this source has proved to be consistent within itself. While there is considerable difference in the quality of the communications, this seems to be reasonably explained by a difference in state of development and order of the personalities making the communications. Its philosophy is consistent. It is essentially Christian, and is, on the whole, entirely harmonious with the known scientific facts and truths of this age. In fact, the case is so unusual and extraordinary that it establishes itself immediately, as far as my experience goes, in a class by itself, one which has thus far resisted all my efforts to prove it to be of auto- psychic origin. Our investigations are being continued and, as I have intimated, I hope some time in the near future to secure permission for the more complete reporting of the phenomena connected with this interesting case.

From: DebraLee A. 1/3/02
Msg. No: 24542, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Self -mastery

Greetings All,

I submit the following quote of Jesus.

"Verily, verily, I say to you, he who rules his own self is greater than he who captures a city. Self mastery is the measure of a man's moral nature and indicator of his spiritual development."

From: Steve R. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24554, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24529


unceasing exposure

Steve, ---Stephen, I have not read all of your posts, but it seems clear you have problems with the UB. Why do you even bother to come to a forum of UB believers and attempt to denigrate their source? Would you presume to walk into a church and usurp the pulpit to your own views?? Would you stand in front of the congregation and challenge every nuance of the Bible?? What is your aim? Do you wish to elevate yourself by deflating others beliefs? I bet you think your doing a public service huh! Why bother? Why not just move on into whatever you realm is? --- **************************************************** ST: To quote the UB..."Intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of one's belief. No man is at any time disturbed by his neighbor's attitude when he has perfect confidence in the truth of that which he wholeheartedly believes. Courage is the confidence of thoroughgoing honesty about those things which one professes to believe. Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals." Stephen **************************************************** Nice try Stephen, but a not so subtle way of trying to skirt the issue by turning it back on the person asking you a legitimate question. I noted that you have also become the focus of the list op and in essence have been "warned" that if you continue this tack there will be consequences. Your methodology of attacking the UB and then turnig around and quoting it to your detractors is a classic ploy, but not very impressive. I suggest to you that Patrick was attempting to impart to you that the objective of this forum is more one of communion among people of like mind. Perhaps you should peruse that word in your dictionary to gain a better understanding of it. Your suggestion that my questioning of your motives indicates a lack of faith on my part is offensive at best.

From: tawQuin r. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24563, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living


Liberty

.. when one loves their enemy ..all enemies.., One is free from the chains that bind them.

.. for if one can truly love their enemy.. then they will truly love them self.

.. for you are your own worst enemy.

.. the drives of the material animal self .. the desire for the lower mindal forces of Survival , Sensation, and Sex.. are your worst enemy.

.. Survival , Sensation, and Sex are necessary.. and indeed part of WHO one IS... but when one subordinates ego to this level of mind only.. one is stuck in selfish behavior which does not 'allow' for unconditional love.

.. the higher mind of Worshipping God <-- discovering higher God communion and knowledge.... of The Ability to Serve... and Creative Expression, is a mind one can subordinate the animal drive to, which leads to an UN-selfish being.

.. when one loves their enemies ... one is free from a mind of hate jealousy, anger, sadness.. etc etc.

.. for when you have these negative feelings .. you OWN them.. these feelings are YOURS... and you represent them... manifest them.

.. even negative thoughts are manifestation in this material reality.

.. when one knows the larger picture.. one finds Value in everyday living.. it rises one up past the vicissitudes and mundaneness of everyday living.

.. one has a personal morality.. to live their life for their Thought Adjuster/God the Father.. one has community morality to give and manifest this love,truth , beauty and goodness to each other.

.. one must expand this morality of service and love to the globe.. each of us needs a global morality.

.. but most crucial is that every manifestation of God-self creates a part of the Supreme Being.

.. and if we choose not to manifest God.. then we RETARD the growth of the Supreme Being.

..one must have a Cosmic Morality.

tawquin

Urania book page 614

True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self- control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings. Even wisdom is divine and safe only when it is cosmic in scope and spiritual in motivation.

There is no error greater than that species of self-deception which leads intelligent beings to crave the exercise of power over other beings for the purpose of depriving these persons of their natural liberties. The golden rule of human fairness cries out against all such fraud, unfairness, selfishness, and unrighteousness. Only true and genuine liberty is compatible with the reign of love and the ministry of mercy.

How dare the self-willed creature encroach upon the rights of his fellows in the name of personal liberty when the Supreme Rulers of the universe stand back in merciful respect for these prerogatives of will and potentials of personality! No being, in the exercise of his supposed personal liberty, has a right to deprive any other being of those privileges of existence conferred by the Creators and duly respected by all their loyal associates, subordinates, and subjects. Evolutionary man may have to contend for his material liberties with tyrants and oppressors on a world of sin and iniquity or during the early times of a primitive evolving sphere, but not so on the morontia worlds or on the spirit spheres. War is the heritage of early evolutionary man, but on worlds of normal advancing civilization physical combat as a technique of adjusting racial misunderstandings has long since fallen into disrepute.

UB page 615

In short, what God had given men and angels Lucifer would have taken away from them, that is, the divine privilege of participating in the creation of their own destinies and of the destiny of this local system of inhabited worlds.

No being in all the universe has the rightful liberty to deprive any other being of true liberty, the right to love and be loved, the privilege of worshiping God and of serving his fellows.

From: Rick W. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24565, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24517


JESUS AND ANTAGONISM

Enjoyed your responses RhonnaLeigh, Charlotte,

You show wisdom and understanding of this plague of antagonism which would have been more or less eliminated by now, had some planetary leaders not failed their trusts. No blame, just a statement of historical insight to shed more light on a modern problem.

But antagonism and its cohorts, vestigial animal traits in reality, are well imbedded in our physical and cultural fabric and much, very much of this is inbred. Until the last century, we had always promoted the warrior, we actually bred people for high levels of antagonism and aggression at various points in history. These genes are still with us.

That makes it simple in one regard. We recognize that it is genetic in part, so gene therapy can remove the gene if society feels safe enough to let it go, but meantime the antagonists we have in existence keep us in and out of conflict preempting the peace we seek.

Culturally, we are already well on the way to denouncing violence and a troublesome nature. When it is no longer cool to be negatively aggressive we will stop raising generations of warrior children who seldom renounce their aggressive tendencies until old age, if then.

Our work is being done when we expose antagonism whenever and wherever see it, without resorting to it. A veritable tightwire act, but the master highwire artist, Michael gave a fine performance, one worth emulating and one which I see being reenacted in many religious communities, not only within the Urantia movement.

Removing the antagonism from Urantian culture will be a process not accomplished in a day, but the goal is worthy I think. It has to approached genetically and behaviorally to be an effective remedy, but first we as a global society have to choose this goal. I can see that partially occurring today with the denunciation of terrorism, a first step. Next, we will build up business ties, have cultural exchanges and learn about one another in order to eventually interweave all countries into the one nation of Urantia that is our destiny, if the Urantia revelation is to be believed, and on to the long cherished times when antagonism is waning on Urantia.

Interestingly, no men deigned to reply, curious eh?

His peace we have, Rick W.

Charlotte and RhonnaLeigh wrote:

Dear Rick and All, I'll take a stab at this one. It's a great quote. I think there are two main reasons we still use antagonism in dealing with each other: 1) We believe that we can't help it. We think that our emotions control our behavior and that we are swept up in them. We use phrases to describe this such as, "I got so mad I couldn't think," or "I have an anger problem," or "I have a short temper. Everyone in my family has one." Because we use these types of phrases, we feel justified in continuing these behaviors even though we can see the negative impact using them has on our relationships. Sometimes we continue using these antagonistic behaviors so long we destroy marriages, or relationships with our children, the most important relationships in our lives.

The second reason we continue using behaviors like antagonism is that those behaviors seem to "work." We think that by using antagonism we can control the behaviors of those around us. We think we know what is best for the people we interact with. We think we know what they "should" believe and think and how they "should" behave and when they don't choose what we want them to choose, we try antagonism, because we believe that we might be able to force them to change their behavior from fear.

I don't think we'll stop this type of behavior until we realize that all our feelings come about from making choices of behavior. If I choose to yell and to think angry thoughts about my fellows, if I choose to believe that I know how they "should" behave, and I'm willing to try to spend my time "making" them behave the way I want, then these behaviors and the resulting damage to relationships will continue on and on.

However, I am very hopeful that humans are on the verge (one thousand years or so) of understanding that when God gave us free will, He really meant that we are free to choose our behaviors and the resultant emotions we want to use in our lives. We can't choose the "accidents of time and space" that we may encounter on this planet, but how we handle them, how we choose to behave, how we choose to think, is completely up to us.

I have found that with the very early beginnings of an understanding of this concept, my entire life and all my relationships are changing for the better, so I can only imagine how wonderful it will be when all of us learn how to use our free will to make the choices that will bring us closer to one another instead of pushing us apart. That, I suppose, will be the dawning of the Era of Light and Life. Ummm.....

Love, Charlotte

Charlotte W.

RhonnaLeigh posted:

Dear Rick W. and all other Sibs reading, Antagonism can have it's positive uses, definitely. Because although cooperation is much preferable, sometimes it's employment isn't an option. We see this here all the time, because "It takes two to make a marriage work and only one for it fail".

The limits of human antagonism? To be safely practiced, are the needs of the many as compared to the few. Love, as is so frequently the answer, sets this limit.

What causes it? That condition when continuation on the present path threatens continued Life.

Is it appropriate to attempt to tame antagonism personally and socially? No, in both cases. What is appropriate is to use the antagonism as a marker of what needs to be evolved and improved for survival. I believe that is antagonism's positive purpose.

Were the revelators making a point by weaving together superstition, prejudice, intolerance and antagonism? I think they were pointing to a natural relationship between them all. Since superstition, prejudice and intolerance always limit individual and group health, they will always produce conditions that require antagonism for balance.

"Every problem contains the seed of it's solution", remember. Antagonism's negative expression IS superstition, prejudice and intolerance. So it's healing will always be through the positive employment of antagonism.

Love for all,

RhonnaLeigh M.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24578, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24554


unceasing exposure

Steve,

Does this mean if you disagree with Patrick...you'll be next?

Stephen

From: Peter H. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24581, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance


To Pat and Others: UBRON

I have read Pat's "Message for All UBRON Members" twice, and I understand even less of what UBRON is about than I ever did. What Sunshine seems to be saying is quite unrealistic in my opinion, and she contradicts herself throughout. For instance, in one place she says we should "if someone starts down a negative path . . . look to the spirit and find something true, beautiful and/or good on which to focus", but informs us that she will not do that herself. If anyone makes waves "he will be shown the door. No vote necessary. It's just that simple, my friend."

As I have pointed out over and over, Jesus often made waves exactly of the sort which Sunshine wished to forbid. So my main question is, does UBRON want to be a place where Jesus is comfortable? Or is there room at the inn only for PART of what he actually was, and now must become in us?

Sunshine seemed to hope that UBRON would become an actual Kingdom of Heaven group. Her only URANTIA Book quote in Pat's message reveals this:

"P.1823 -§3 "Let me assure you, once and for all, that if you dedicate your lives to the work of the kingdom, all your needs shall be supplied. Seek the greater thing, and the lesser will be found therein; ask for the heavenly, and the earthly shall be included. The shadow is certain to follow the substance."

But then she contradicts the meaning of that quote in the very next line: "The bottom line is that we are all expected to treat our fellow UBRON members with respect, kindness, thoughtfulness and genuine respect for their feelings and sense of well-being. If you cannot do this, please remain quiet, or have your membership cancelled."

Generally that is a fine sentiment, however strictly speaking she is asking for the earthly thing rather than the heavenly, the lesser instead of the greater. Her desire is un-Jesusonian, as even a cursory look at Jesus' cleansing of the temple and last words to the Pharisees shows quite clearly.

The problem is that Sunshine seemed committed to peace at any price, and her discipline to enforce it was contrary in every way to the group discipline Jesus taught his followers to use, and which incorporates the above URANTIA Book quote's meaning , that the lesser will be found in the greater, and the earthly will come about after the heavenly is sought. Sunshine wanted the earthly, "peaceful coexistence [or else you are history]". In fact what she wanted was even selfish: "I joined all the lists and joyfully prepared myself for a feast of spiritual sharing with like-minded souls who would speak my language . . . .WRONG!!!" So she set about to create such a place in UBRON.

Now, if looked at in a secular way what she did is fine, including her type of authoritarian management to make sure that people who WERE NOT "like-minded" and who DID NOT "share her language" would be "shown the door" or become "history".

And "peaceful coexistence" became the real rule -- the one which would be enforced -- while the Golden Rule became (probably quite unintentionally on Sunshine's part) merely window dressing which gave the site a Jesusonian flavor. But the problem is that the highest interpretation of the Golden Rule puts Jesus as he actually was and as he becomes in us in the driver's seat, the same Jesus who castigated the Pharisees in words for which more than one poster has had his/her UBRON membership cancelled, the same Jesus who also spoke harsh and disturbing words to his friends and family (even causing his mother to faint when she overheard them), whose criticism at times plunged his disciples into despair.

Yet Sunshine realized that UBRON might become "a conglomeration of HUMAN persons, ALL imperfect, each at a different stage of soul growth, with different viewpoints, differing cultural backgrounds, many and various agendas to pursue, and mostly accustomed to fight if they wished to be heard."

But she provided for no conflict resolution whatsoever. Rather it is get along or get out. And nowhere in her writings which Pat provided does she indicate that she is aware of the ongoing conflict between truth and error which MUST take place if there is to be growth! In spite of clearly envisioning growth as essential to both UBRON members and UBRON as a group, she killed the necessary METHOD of growth ("there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation" 1097 D). That was unrealistic.

Her main goal for UBRON, however, was to "spread the benign virus of love across the globe". Yet she nevertheless seemed to think that we could love each other here BEFORE we had attained a "thoroughgoing understanding of [our] neighbor's motives and sentiments". And only that kind of "genuine . . . love is truly contagious". Here on a forum where we exist ONLY in what we say (write), there is NO WAY we can ever get to know each other on that level without a whole lot of discussion. At the time Sunshine started UBRON the movement was being split in two! People had strong sentiments about the issues concerned. But Sunshine did not want those matters to be discussed on UBRON. Rather -- unrealistically -- she seemed to want us to ACT LIKE we already loved each other (in spite of the fact that it takes quite a bit of time to really KNOW anyone in the electronic forum medium), she wanted us to START OUT in supportive relationships which took NO regard for the fact that truth CANNOT and SHOULD NOT support error. The side of Jesus which got up in evil's face would be "shown the door" or become "history"!

We often look at Jesus' treatment of Kirmeth as an example of how Jesus even let error be preached in his camp. Yes, that is true, he did. But let's not forget that Jesus did NOT intervene until AFTER the trance prophet had been dunked in the lake by some of Jesus' followers. When Kirmeth was allowed to present his beliefs, he had already been branded as a weirdo before the whole camp. It was as if Jesus was saying, "Let's see what this weirdo has to say for himself". And the trance-prophet's error stood in sharp contrast to the purity of Jesus' message.

But our later-day version of trance prophets are allowed to present their beliefs on UBRON without any similar form of branding. Under Sunshine's rules support would be allowed but NOT disagreement. And when someone got emotionally involved in the very Jesusonian practice of getting into evil's face (though Jesus also taught that such evil-serving human "swine" and "dogs" -- Jesus' words -- should be dealt with cautiously. . . not to salve their hurt feelings, but for self-protection). He was "shown the door"!

And this incident shows the inherent unfairness of Sunshine's (now Pat's) style of management. Pat says, "Rob has always been kind here". Yet Rob's obfuscation was unmistakable in light of the fact that his superior command of the language enabled him to write with great clarity and succinctness. So it can be easily determined that his obfuscation was purposely done, and it was done in response to sincere critics who were genuinely disturbed by what he was saying. Rob's obfuscation was not "kind", but a slap in the face. Rob at times was not so much the "sneaky dog" I used as an analogy, but more like a bad boy teasing his little brother to anger, while he holds the helpless, fist-flailing child at arm's length. But Pat, being human, and perhaps having too much to read to let him ponder beneath the surface of the writing and to read between the lines, didn't see this.

Now Rob's type of behavior was something you NEVER saw Jesus doing! Yet you did see Jesus indulging in actual name-calling. But it is the name-calling which got punished. That is, the member got punished for being straight-foreward and obvious in his unmannerly behavior.

Earlier it appeared to me that someone knew just how to push Ron Cyr's buttons. Ron, I remember, was almost *begging* in post after post for UBRON Administration (before Pat's time) to take a hand in keeping his ongoing URANTIA Book study on track. Finally, by the time the study was totally derailed, and with no administrative help forthcoming, he reached the end of his rope and began to act (in my opinion) in a culturally-determined manner required for the circumstances. Whether I am right or wrong, I doubt very seriously if this cultural aspect was given ANY consideration. The rule is, make waves and you are out. And that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Golden Rule! Nothing at all!

I believe that UBRON has reached a crossroads which was made inevitable by Sunshine's death. We are now at a point where the choice (not necessarily the final choice) must be made deciding whether UBRON is to continue on as a monument to the dead Sunshine or to the living Sunshine!

Rob has done us a favor. He has brought Sunshine back to life even if his purported message from her was transmitted straight from his subconscious mind. Whether awake or sleeping, Sunshine has simply gone on. Her cancer is cured. Her earthly problems are over. She is likely right now going to a class or exploring some wonder which we can only dream about.

The living Sunshine has NOT stopped growing. She is or will be picking up her morontia life exactly where she left it, with some virtues already attained and its imperfections and inadequacies to be overcome. The question to us is whether her monument will be likewise living or if it will be as dead as stone, sunk into unwitting secularism, conflicted by selfish desires for continual pleasantness as opposed to the actual life and teachings of Jesus.

The real question is, will UBRON become an institution or an organism?

We are told that organic groups as opposed to institutional ones are to be the wave of the future. But the reality of this teaching can hardly be attained by UBRON if it continues to ignore Jesus' (hence, The URANTIA Book's) instruction as how groups are to be disciplined. If UBRON refuses to "seek the greater thing" it will NEVER find the lesser, and if it will not "ask for the heavenly" it shall NOT attain the earthly. If it is to become a living organism, as a religious group it MUST follow Jesus! It CANNOT continue to follow the imperfect, fallible, abandoned mortality of Sunshine!

It is entirely in Bruce's lap what UBRON is and what it shall have the *freedom* to become. I was not given the opportunity to get to know Sunshine, or to discuss these things with her (which I would purely love to be able to do). But I sincerely doubt that those who did know her well would ever think that she would be satisfied to have UBRON stagnate and decay along with her now-abandoned mortal flesh and bones, firmly attached to a past memory instead of to a dynamic and wide-opened-eyed vision of the present and future.

I think UBRON can become a significant factor in spreading "the benign virus of love across the globe". But it cannot do this as an institution. And like any living organism it has to be able to let go of its mistakes, learn from them, and grow.

UBRON is a group of people. It is NOT the website that is owned and provided for the group by Bruce. That ownership gives Bruce the *power* to make the rules (the cynical interpretation of the Golden Rule is: "He who has the gold makes the rules") but not the *right* to make them for other free will religionists. The group, and ONLY the group -- according to Jesus in The URANTIA Book -- must discipline itself, must make its own rules, and must ask for spiritual help in maintaining the necessary order. Passing the buck to Pat changes nothing: Sunshine was WRONG! A vote IS necessary if UBRON is ever to become MORE than an electronic, web-based institution. The group must be allowed to be in charge of its own discipline.

Just like salvation. The decision can be put off for a while, and the individual can wander in spiritual darkness a bit longer, but the point-of-no-return will surely come, and the final decision will have to be made -- the same one which we must each personally make for ourselves: life or death?

I want to be part of a UBRON which chooses life, which puts itself into the Father's hands in truth and actuality. A dead UBRON can be buried among the millions of other dead websites as far as I care!

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Peter H. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24583, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Our Ideals & Goals


Sympathy for the Devil

Hi All!

One UBRON member asked me privately why I chose Lucifer to be my first imagined contact, and wondered if a deeper truth might be read into it. Since Steve also made a more sinister reference along the same lines, I will answer publicly.

Of course satire demands dramatic juxtaposition. But that does still not answer the question, since others might equally fill the bill. Thinking about it I remembered posting in reference to an issue about the purported adjudication of the Lucifer rebellion, that when I first read in The UBook that no one in Satania wished to visit Lucifer in his prison, I felt that I did. Sympathy for the devil, I guess! (Please let's don't get picky about who we call the Devil).

Maybe I am being unconsciously trained for such a mission. Who knows. By imaginary interaction with him, perhaps I am actually becoming to know him and understand him. I don't necessarily think this is so, I am just pointing it out as a possibility.

But maybe the low-grade lifeform with hardly any tits to speak of, by offering forgiveness in spite of all of the $#!+ that Lucifer has brought down on our heads could cause him to actually accept Michael's mercy and become rehabilitated. We are, I am informed, to love even our enemies. And certainly Lucifer is rightly the enemy of humanity. Maybe moreso the enemy of mortals (on Urantia and other rebellion seared planets) than of any other type of being in Satania.

Not, you understand, that I particularly want to be in the presence of that kind of evil and insanity.

Well, that's my answer for what it is worth.

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Steve R. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24585, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24578


unceasing exposure

Stephen, Do I disagree with Patrick about what? I think it was clear that Patrick had concerns about your behavior on this list, I share his concerns. Why are you here is the question. Wouldn't it be easier to go where you get agreement? Or is that not as much fun?

From: Steve R. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24586, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Our Ideals & Goals , Reply to: 24583


Sympathy for the Devil

Peter, thank you for the penetrating analysis! The Devil will no doubt appreciate your compassion. :)

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24593, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24585


unceasing exposure

Steve,

ASSIMILATE...ASSIMILATE...RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!

IF you disagree with Patrick (BORG), then you will be next for the chopping block.

Stephen

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24598, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24585


unceasing exposure

Dear Steve,

You've asked this more than once, or maybe that was someone else. I don't wish to involve myself in you guy's discussion, but I can come up with several possible reasons for why Stephen is here despite disagreements. If you try harder, I'll bet you can come up with several, too. Here are a couple from my list to get you started:

1) A desire to help his siblings that might be being misled.

2) REALLY wanting something to be true, but having the kind of mind that can't allow that unless it survives all arguments.

What are some positive motives you can imagine for why he's still here? Because you know, no one undertakes unpleasant experiences for the hell of it. As mammals we basically don't expend energy unless we have to in our quest for the good we've envisioned. Or to avoid suffering, which is really just the negative expression of that same motive.

just a couple pennies,

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24601, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24581


To Pat and Others: UBRON

Hi everyone,

This is another one of those occasions where I'm certain we're in good hands with Peter's mind. What thorough searches for truth and generous sharing of that he's found, he supports our health with.

My vote is for the living UBRON. Life IS messy and nothing worth having comes easy. Pleasantness does not equal kindness. And can in fact, seriously jeopardize growth. That has been my experience, and all too frequently.

This world needs UBRON to be all it can be. To be REAL. Not just a pretty-picture postcard. Let us make the Golden Rule and spreading the benign virus of love ACTUALITIES, not pretend niceties. To do that, there has to be room for respectful honesty.

The truth isn't always pleasant, but it must be faced if problems are to be corrected. I think we're all grownups here, and can muster the courage required for honest, full explorations. We're also capable of voting for proper disciplinary actions, where those are needed. My only concern about that is vote mail taking up more space than discussion mail. There is only so much time...after all.

Well, since I've already violated the "no kudos" admonishment, let me just finish by saying I applaud the way so many here have assumed responsibility to keep UBRON going. Bruce, Patrick (are there other ListOps?), Peter with this post, and all of you who share your Self, from your most troubling questions to your greatest discoveries. Thank you all.

Let UBRON live!

From: Patrick M. 1/4/02
Msg. No: 24602, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24578


unceasing exposure

No, it does not mean that Stephan... I could give a s*it who agrees with me or not. I'm just another Bozo on this bus to Paradise. Join the crew. And I am not the BORG... I am "Q""

Peace...

From: Steffani M. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24605, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24602


unceasing exposure

Stephen,

You would do well to realize that Bruce would be more like Picard... and he will run the Starship Sunshine as tight as he sees fit...

UBRON is more like Starfleet...a chain of command...lots of rules and regulations to keep everything safe, efficient and shipshape... and the crew need not agree with every order...but they must carry them out to the best of their ability or be considered insubordinate.

There is discipline...no intent to 'punish' but to maintain control by safe, trusted, appropriate and well trained bridge staff...there's a brig as well as a holodek..room for creativity and proficiency in carrying out your assigned duties...promotion in logical sequence if you earn it by truly outstanding service...but it may take awhile as your superior officers are very, very good at what they do.

Say...does this remind you of anything? Perhaps this vessel, spaceworthy as she may be does not suit you? Sorry the pirate ship crashed...but a new one more to your liking could always be built you know. That cargo ship that's been hi-jacked from the fellowship has only a skeleton crew and doesn't fly very fast.

Of course you'd be welcome here if you can abide by Starfleet regulations...and those really aren't open to debate. Many have worked hard for academy admittance and the terms were generally agreeable to those who chose to stay. Flunking out or expulsion ever remain possibilities...you have to work hard to be included in such a renowned institution which serves the purpose for which it was designed quite well...your choice really...go or stay.

May you live long and prosper ;-)

Ensign Steffani assisting with your orientation procedures.

No, it does not mean that Stephan... I could give a s*it who agrees with me or not. I'm just another Bozo on this bus to Paradise. Join the crew. And I am not the BORG... I am "Q""

Peace...

From: Steve R. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24608, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24598


unceasing exposure

Dear Steve, You've asked this more than once, or maybe that was someone else. I don't wish to involve myself in you guy's discussion, but I can come up with several possible reasons for why Stephen is here despite disagreements. If you try harder, I'll bet you can come up with several, too. Here are a couple from my list to get you started: 1) A desire to help his siblings that might be being misled. 2) REALLY wanting something to be true, but having the kind of mind that can't allow that unless it survives all arguments. What are some positive motives you can imagine for why he's still here? Because you know, no one undertakes unpleasant experiences for the hell of it. As mammals we basically don't expend energy unless we have to in our quest for the good we've envisioned. Or to avoid suffering, which is really just the negative expression of that same motive. just a couple pennies, RhonnaLeigh MacKnigh **************************************************** Hi Rhonna, I guess this is directed at me, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying for. In your first example, who would be falling into that catagory on this list? Since this forum is for UB believers I would say people who are on the fence would be more likely to be misled by Stephens skepticism, people who are true believers are not in danger of being misled. In your second example, my experience is that things don't work that way, spiritual enlightenment comes usually as a revelatory experience. One may study and study and study, and then the light bulb goes on and you "get it". If you start out in your study by picking apart the information, what is the likelyhood that the light bulb is going to come on?? How many Christians begin their quest by picking apart the Bible? The Bible never led me anywhere, but I felt no need to go where Bible believers hang out and pick apart their book. When I found the UB I picked it up and before I even put it back down I knew I had found my connection. If Stephen is making an effort to become one with the UB it is an odd way to go about it in my opinion, I certainly have no desire to "convince" him he should believe what I believe. Nor do I think it is productive to try and "prove" anything to one of the mind set that is "looking" for ways to find a glitch. By my questioning of Stephen I further confirmed in my own mind that his goal is not to find communion, but that he uses tactics that are subtle put downs, or not so subtle, as the case may be. He had no intention of answering my questions, that is why I asked him twice, to no avail. To me that is called,"a waste of time". I'm not particularly fond of proselytizing, maybe you find it rewarding, that's fine. I felt my questions were legitimate, I wasn't trying to incite.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24609, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24598


unceasing exposure

Rhonnaleigh,

Thank you for your comments and concerns. And I do believe I have honorable motives in my line of argument, but I do not wish to indulge in a discussion of why I am here, or what I believe, as it distracts from the facts of the argument presented. We could get into a long discourse on any number of other subjects and side issues, but that will not in any way substantively address the points I raised about paper 1 paragraph 1. Beating up the mailman will not rewrite the letters in his bag. Let's get through paragraph 1 and then maybe can begin to talk about paragraph 2.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24610, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24608


unceasing exposure

Steve,

Your questions were directed at my motivations, and not to the substance of the argument, or the facts pertaining to it. Now if you wish to discuss the facts, I would be glad to recap them for you. As to my motivations, they are irrelevent.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24611, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24602


unceasing exposure

Have you been to ESG lately?

From: Steve R. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24612, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24610


unceasing exposure

Stephen, you have no desire to discuss your motives. I have no desire to try and convince you of anything. So I guess we are at an impasse. If you continue on your present tack I imagine at some point and time you will be dealt with in the way that the list ops think best. Until then I don't think you and I have anything to share. Please continue.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24613, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Here is a recap of my points of discussion regarding paper 1 paragraph 1 of the UB.

Please feel free to enter in any evidence you think may illuminate these points.

A. The Prophet says: "by the sons of God were the universes made" (which is not supported by any scripture) Misquote or slander…you decide. If you can provide the verse, which includes this phrasing, I would be very glad to review it.

B. The Divine Counselor calls the "Universal Father" the "First Source and Center of all things and beings" (things and beings are the domain of the universes) going on to say the "truth of the Universal Father began to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said"…meaning that the words of the Prophet refer to the "Universal Father".

C. Things and beings are the stuff of the universes that the prophet (according to the Divine Counselor) says is the creative domain of the sons of God, making it a clear distinction from that of the Father, who created the "heavens and the heaven of heavens".

D. Therefore, if you abide in the notion that the prophet is not misquoted or slandered, the Universal Father is a son of God, and not the Father which the prophet states clearly is the creator of the "heavens and the heaven of heavens", making the "Universal Father" an imposter to the throne of God. The charge of blasphemy applies here.

E. If the Divine Counselor has misquoted the Prophet, then the "unchallengeable authority" of the Divine Counselor is in serious question, and renders all subsequent writing the fruit of the poisonous tree.

F. If the Divine Counselor deliberately misquoted the Prophet then the issue of slander and blasphemy is applicable.

By the way, the UB clearly admits plagiarism ("Thou shall not bear false witness") a grievous sin. For more information on this, read "Urantia the Great Cult Mystery" by Martin Gardner.

Stephen

From: Nancy B. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24614, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24613


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Stephen -

In order to understand the first paragraph of the Urantia Book the way you seem to be straining to do - you might want to read the Urantia Book Forward.

In order to understand the concept of the First Source and Center you have to backtrack your mind and open it a crack.

Try it this way. Even though finite minds cannot understand infinity - especially the minds that inhabit bodies which spring forth from this lowly, backwards planet - in order to begin to comprehend this paragraph one must be able to envision a "zero age". Zero is the key which is imperative to your comprehension. For instance, zero is not marked on a ruler - but it is actually the mark we start measurment at.

This is God before being named. This is God before creation.

At the "zero age" God has and inside, but not an outside - a within, but not a without, no past and no future. God Is. God is unqualiafied - because there is nothing that is in existence to qualify Him/Her/It.

In this state God is static and potential and the very definition of existential. Perhaps you cannot envision this state as factual reality, but it certainly is a valid concept in trying to penetrate pre-space and pre-time as the timebound, spacebound creatures that we are.

God, as the First Source and Center, is the pre-Father God. We can look at Him/Her/It as total stability with no need for factual reality. There is quietness and no movement in this state. This is how you are getting tripped up in your quest to understand this paragraph.

And another place you might be getting tripped up is by not understanding this enigma continues to be a valid concept as I write these words today - since it still exists in pre-space and pre-time!

As soon as God begins to move (create or plan for creation) He/She begins to move from the Unqualified Absolute to the Qualified Absolute - what else could it be - and has become the SOURCE of all things - of everything - and therefore, the parent of all thing and everything including Him/Her/Itself.

Once the Trinity and Paradise is manifested - time and space begin. From this Trinity God downsteps Him/Herself in a myriad of ways - not the least of which is through the creation of the Michael Sons and the Creative Daughter Spirits who go out into the universes and create.

In a small sense you're correct in the perception of your confusion - but your confusion stems from a lack of information and/or understanding/comprehension - or an inability on your part to be able to conceive the ideas given in the book. There is a hypothetical pre-Father, pre-Trinity, zero-age to consider when contemplating the first paragraph of the Urantia Book you cite. This is why I invite you to puruse the Forward so that you might begin to gain knowledge and understanding of these concepts like the rest of us have struggled to do.

Hope this helps with your struggle.

Nancy

PS

I do hope you're not just attached to a dogmatic position on this issue because you're an antagonistic Christian Fundamentalist, quasai intellectual or an ordinary agnostic, perhaps (yawn) athiest in search of the mythical, anti-Christ to prove some out-dated, out-moded point. If that were true, your mind will not budge an inch - no matter how much information is given to aid your understanding of this paragraph, now would it.

From: Carol F. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24617, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24613


Recap - Universal Father=infinity

Hi Stephen, I have been trying to explain this to you, let me try again. (if you can't see that artwork below through your email you need to go to the website).

Since God is in infinity He knows all. That means that nothing is original *with* us because it is already known to Him. It is new *to* us only, not God.

Here is an example. Below are two pieces of my artwork. I did them with my own hands. The first is a drawing of a child, the other is a free-style painting.

The first is a drawing of my niece, who is a real person. I photographed her and did the drawing from the photograph. Since I did not create my niece, by your logic, I am plagiarizing her. In the art world anything done by hand is considered original with the artist, even if it as exact reproduction of something that is real. In your world you seem to think that anything done by an individual belongs to them. That is true on a limited basis, ultimately all belongs to God.

The second is a painting that I created just by using paint. It is original in that I didn't use anything as a model. But ultimately it is not my creation in that my being owes it's existence to God and everything I do reflects that originality. My hands, my eyes, even that paint and canvas I am using has an original source if you trace it back far enough.

When you complain about plagiarism all I can do is smile. The very air we breathe is plagiarized. Nothing belongs to us, it always belonged to God.

From: DebraLee A. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24622, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24613


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Dear Stephen,

My question to you would be, have you read the entire Urantia book? I know this takes alot of time, but it's very enjoyable reading.If you have read the entire book and you still believe in the Bible {as the infallable word of God], that is certainly your right.

I found a problem with the Bible that caused me to say, in my heart of hearts, "this is not the whole truth about Our Father". This came from deep inside me, were Our Father lives. This happened long before The Urantia Book found me.

The thing about the Bible, is that it kept Jesus alive for all these years, and thank God for that, but look at our aimless youth. I see the Bible as havig failed because it holds error about Our Father, along side of the truth, that these young ones know in their hearts is error. They know this because God is right with them, inside. They may not consiously know he's there, but he certainly is. So when they are told, this is the infallable truth, they throw the baby out with the bath water.

These young ones are thinking for themselves now more than ever, and it is going to take a much truer 'truth' to hold them and elicit their devotion. I personally believe The Urantia Book holds the 'truest' truth we have on this planet, at this time. I feel certain that these same young ones [and older ones too] would, as TUB says [not a direct quote], rush forth to embrace this gosspel of Jesus.

Actually, i'm not so interesred in whether you have read the whole UB, as much as part four. Because as i see it, if one has read all of part four, one thing they HAVE to agree on, is that Jesus'life could have been, No Less than is presented here.

So, while different people read different books in their efforts to 'find God', the important thing is that they find him. He is SPIRIT. It takes the intellect to do the search, but it is spiritual discernment that causes one to say, I have found Him here.

We are all of God, we are all his children. I believe the spiritual is what this world needs, and i beleive there is nothing else on the planet [that i have found] that reveals the spirit of God in a truer light than The Urantia Book.

You seem to believe in the infalability of the Bible, which is after all about spirit. Do you find any spiritual teachings in TUB objectionable?

Many good people have done untold good, holding a Bible in their hands, but much, very much harm has been done by others holding the bible in their hand. In my opinion, whatever book one holds, if they feel anamosity toward any, they have not found God. Period.

God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven..Peace, DebraLee

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24634, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24608


unceasing exposure

Hi again Steve,

All I offered the two pennies for was to help you two guys work your issues out better. It looked like you were both working so hard to get somewhere, but going nowhere and getting increasingly frustrated. I thought if y'all were less suspicious of each other's motives for the discussion, you might relax enough to discuss the real questions presented originally.

And this forum is for people who've read and read the UB. Nowhere in the name UBRON does it say that only UB believers should post here. Couldn't it be possible that Stephen might be a reader who wants to be a believer, but has to make sense of book entries that seem incongruent to his understanding?

Usually, I've found that observing another's skepticism prompts me to reassess my own beliefs about the issue. This is a good thing, because it helps strengthen convictions that are backed by truth while also motivating me to clean out my mental closets, so to speak. Stephen's skepticism can't mislead anyone but Stephen, but it could also be exactly what enables him to own the truth he finds.

Both of your's fruitless hostilities could help fence sitters decide to go elsewhere, is all. But only the one's who were considering UBRON for what it could give them, so what's the loss? Anyone considering UBRON as a vehicle for service, would only be encouraged to join in by witnessing you two's obvious failure to communicate.

The only reason I offered my two cents worth was to help you two communicate. Stephen was obviously troubled by something that you felt directed to help him with. It seems his skepticism of the UB is interpreted by you as a personal attack, though. It's entirely natural when one feels attacked to adopt a defensive stance, so I'm not offering this observation to put you down, OK? But he wasn't attacking you Steve, just stating how he saw those passages, being honest about that disturbing him, and asking if anybody else was seeing that too. At first anyhow, it might have changed after that, but I don't know because I tuned your squabble out when it was apparent that answering his original question was temporarily impossible, because of the defensive postures both of you had taken by then.

I hope y'all can get back to addressing the original issue. These that have come up for you out of it -- about fears that skeptics can rob anyone of their truth, or their favorite book for finding it through -- are worthy of yet another discussion. Once the original one has been resolved, I'd encourage you to explore that one publicly, since the impression I get is that many people here worry about the same thing. Your process of resolving your issues about that could help many others find peace about it as well.

Like I said though, I do not wish to sidetrack you from helping our sib who's call you felt a need to answer. If you have changed your mind about that, all you need do is considerately say so. Pulling out of the discussion doesn't have to be someone's fault. You have free will too and the obligation to use it in accordance with your highest wisdom. Just like all the rest of us.

Good luck to you!

From: Larry G. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24636, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24520


Stephen T's new logic

Dear Stephen...

Larry previous: So we both agree that heaven of heavens and universes are two different things, the former created by the Universal Father and the latter by the Sons of God, or which could be equally defined as the Sons of the Universal Father. I will assume you agree with this equal definition but I'm sure you'll let me know if you don't.

ST: I agree with you to the extent that I agree that the UB says those things in its first paragraph of its first paper. What I believe in that regard is irrelevent to the discussion here.

Your beliefs in regard to this paragraph i.e. your interpretation is exactly what is relevent to this discussion here.

In the foreward the Urantia Book explains the many names for the various functions of the Godhead, and how these ideas have evolved in our consciousness. Among other names it says that God is also known as the Universal Father. That is not an assumption on my part. Unless you have this equalization in mind, you will continue to torture the first paragraph with false meanings.

Larry previous: The Universal Father by the creation of His Sons can be said to have created 'all things and beings,' even though it is the Sons themselves which created the universes (all things and beings) because the Sons created time/space with the Universal Father's power, patterns and mandates.

ST: But I made the point that the Prophet clearly makes a distinction as to the creative domains of the Father, and those of the sons, and that the UB places the creative domain of the UF in the domain designated by the prophet as that of the sons through the use of the words "things and beings".

Your point is askew as I point out below previously:

More accurately, the Universal Father created all things and beings THROUGH the Sons of the Universal Father. No Sons. No universes. How could the Universal Father (God) usurp Himself as you asked? How could the Universal Father be only a 'Son of God' as you question when he created these Sons.

ST: You are making the assumption that the UF and Father are two names for the same entity. This may not be the case. The UB is very careful to designate God by different names in reference to their functional differences. This begs the question...why is there a lack on uniformity of usage in this paragraph in question?

As I said above, it is not an assumption that the UF, Father and God are all names given the phenomena in the foreward. With this information your question as to uniformity becomes moot.

ST: I simply took a careful read of what it actually says, and posed the interpetation for review. I did not twist anything at all.

If that one paragraph is all that was in the Urantia Papers I can see where you might have a case for your misinterpretation, but in the full context of the foreward, your take on this becomes quite tiresome and does raise the issue of motive, albeit your denial...for ultimately it all comes down to motives, including mine.

* * * * * * *

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24638, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24609


unceasing exposure

Dear Stephen,

When someone thinks maybe they can help with what you've asked for, but needs you to clarify your intent before they can know for sure, I think it makes sense to provide them that. IF you really want what you asked for. And there are ways to do that without sidetracking the discussion.

It's interesting to me that you've used the word "argument" twice here, in describing the contribution you wished to make. Is that an accurate portrayal of what you're after, or is there perhaps a better word you could have used? Using that word might be part of the reason Steve began to feel that he couldn't help you. Since as he's said more than once, he is available for sharing understanding that he has in common with others.

If you're wishing to conduct a study though, I suggest you do so under that topic heading. You may enjoy greater success there.

Hoping you work it out, RhonnaLeigh ................................

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24639, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24638


unceasing exposure

Rhonnalegh,

Thank you for your interjection on both of our behalfs. My use of the term "argument" was in no way an indication of my intent. I use it to refer to the points raised for discussion.

My initial presentation was under the heading of study, but somehow deviated from tat along the way. I have osted my "recap" of the pointsunder "study".

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24641, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24636


Stephen T's new logic

Larry,

I am trying to avoid "interpretation" as much as possible, and look directly, and as logically as possible, at what is actually being said. What I personally believe should not be at issue here.

The foreward seems to do two things...in it's attempt to clear up confusion regarding terms such as God and Deity it has cateorized them by function. But what it does also is give license to use the terms interchangebly and this undermines functional clarity. It opens the door to interpretation which can be manipulated so as to lead the reader to make false conclusions. Obviously the DC would be expected to make a decisive choice with regard to which term he/she uses in a sentence, and it would follow that this decisive usage would follow the functional requirements outlined in the Foreword. If we take that into consideration when reading the papers, we will find it to be telling. And this is what I have done.

It is apparent that the Universal Father is being functionally tied to "things and beings" and the Prophet is clearly distinguishing between the to funtional levels of creatorship domain...that of the Father, and that of the son. In this case, it links the UF to the creatorship domain of the sons. If so, all claims of the UF being the Father are a blasphemy.

The issue is one of usage then. I don't think that these terms are randomly interchangeble, we cannot assume that any term for Deity has equal value and can be mixed and matched on a whim, especially if clearing up confusion is your goal.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24642, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24617


Recap - Universal Father=infinity

Carol,

The artwork wouldn't have come into being had you not picked up your brush or pen and and made the choice to create. Your creation. Free will.

Jesus lived by the laws of the land in which he resided. It would behoove a DC to conduct his/her behavior in like manner. After all, what would it hurt to include the name of the Prophet, and not alter the work without adequate notation of such.

You might wish to review my most recent post to Larry regarding usage of terms for Deity.

By the way you are a very talented artist, and I appreciate your sharing that wih me.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24644, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24622


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Dear Debralee,

---Dear Stephen,

My question to you would be, have you read the entire Urantia book? I know this takes alot of time, but it's very enjoyable reading.If you have read the entire book and you still believe in the Bible {as the infallable word of God], that is certainly your right.---

ST: Yes I have read it through...several times.I am fairly wll vrsed in the Bible as wel. and do not regard it as infallible. The Bible must be understood in terms of its historical and cultural context. There is a great deal which can be gleaned from either book, but the key to this is discernment of the truth of what is ACTUALLY being said. This includes reading between the lines and interpreting the meanings. This involves some effort on the readers part with either book. And sometimes the discoveries are not what we personally want or feel comfortable with.

---I found a problem with the Bible that caused me to say, in my heart of hearts, "this is not the whole truth about Our Father". This came from deep inside me, were Our Father lives. This happened long before The Urantia Book found me.---

ST: Truth is where you find it...but again, discernment is key.

---The thing about the Bible, is that it kept Jesus alive for all these years, and thank God for that, but look at our aimless youth. I see the Bible as havig failed because it holds error about Our Father, along side of the truth, that these young ones know in their hearts is error. They know this because God is right with them, inside. They may not consiously know he's there, but he certainly is. So when they are told, this is the infallable truth, they throw the baby out with the bath water. ---

ST: Don't expect the UB to do any better...it is rife with problems which will send the youth spinning on their heels once discovered. Not all idols are made of stone and clay, some are made of paper and ink.

---These young ones are thinking for themselves now more than ever, and it is going to take a much truer 'truth' to hold them and elicit their devotion. I personally believe The Urantia Book holds the 'truest' truth we have on this planet, at this time. I feel certain that these same young ones [and older ones too] would, as TUB says [not a direct quote], rush forth to embrace this gosspel of Jesus. ---

ST: Truth is truth, error is error. There is no such thing as a truer truth. If ou are looking for a book to be the perfect substitute for God, then I say it is you are an idolator looking for others to validate your idol. You woulddo better to encourage your youth to be more studious and discerning, not to worry about finding a true book, but rather encourage them to go about doing good...in this way they will discover truth through action and experience. Do good, be an example, and when your youth see the value of doing good, just maybe they will follow after you.

---Actually, i'm not so interesred in whether you have read the whole UB, as much as part four. Because as i see it, if one has read all of part four, one thing they HAVE to agree on, is that Jesus'life could have been, No Less than is presented here.---

ST: And does it not say the Jesus went about doing good?

---So, while different people read different books in their efforts to 'find God', the important thing is that they find him. He is SPIRIT. It takes the intellect to do the search, but it is spiritual discernment that causes one to say, I have found Him here.---

ST: I say...if you don't DO good, then what value is there in the intellectual efforts. I suspect God does not care much what you believe, think, or say...but I imagine he would be most interested in what you DO as a result of what you believed, thought, or said.

---We are all of God, we are all his children. I believe the spiritual is what this world needs, and i beleive there is nothing else on the planet [that i have found] that reveals the spirit of God in a truer light than The Urantia Book. ---

ST: Then I say...keep looking. Truth is where you find it.

---You seem to believe in the infalability of the Bible, which is after all about spirit. Do you find any spiritual teachings in TUB objectionable? ---

ST: Yes, but let's start with th first page..ok?

---Many good people have done untold good, holding a Bible in their hands, but much, very much harm has been done by others holding the bible in their hand. In my opinion, whatever book one holds, if they feel anamosity toward any, they have not found God. Period.---

ST: You make my case. It is about choices...the choice to do good or the choice to do evil. I highly recommend you check out "What We Are", "The Nature of Evil", "Non-ascendent Personality Traits", and "The Sinning Lessons" on planetaryhq.com

Stephen

From: Gene N. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24649, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24617


Recap - Universal Father=infinity

I've been following this thread and I've seen it many, many times before The "Devil's Advocate" testing the Dogma is nothing new, although I always liked the term "loyal opposition" (it sounds less spooky) And after several rounds we'll call the fight a draw. I've seen Cal do this a lot and it's amazing what the ministering spirits' creativity musters up! I loved Steffani's anaolgy of a starship; quite packed with real common sense practical comfort! But these two images are beautiful!!! Especially in the context of a way of illustrating a remedy to some common nonsense about the book being plagarized and some kind of scary judgement forthcoming! If we need these kinds of battles to create this kind of beauty then so be it!! or as Picard says, "Make it so!" Love is all need!

From: DebraLee A. 1/5/02
Msg. No: 24651, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Our Starship Crew

Greetings Bruce, Will Patrick, Holly, Steffani,

I would like to give you, each one, a big Thank You from the heart! It means a great deal to me to able to participate in this fellowship of like minded people. You Guys are some of the most intelligent people it has ever been my privelge to 'know', and the heart of UBRON is truly beautiful! Peace...Thank You, Sunshine!

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24652, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24649


Recap - Universal Father=infinity

Was there a particular point of the thread that you wished to discuss...I mean the points pertinent to the issue. After all a discussion of the participants does not in any manner change the nature of the points raised, nor does it negate them. Even Picard does not ignore the facts.

Stephen

From: Carol F. 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24655, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24642


Recap - Universal Father=infinity

Hi Stephen, thank you for bringing up the importance of choice. My observation has been that your complaints are about words (form), not content (substance). The example I was giving with my artwork is the difference between the form and the substance. All of the things I mentioned, hands, eyes, paint, the air we breathe, is about form. How I use all of these things, the results, are substance.

The words used in the Urantia Papers are form. Our words, their words, whatever. A book is a form of communication between living entities. When you argue the words you lose the substance. It is the same in the art world when someone critiques the use of a medium rather than appreciating the results, however they were achieved.

The authors of the Urantia Papers admit that they have a problem communicating with us. They don't live here and they don't know what it's like to live in a place where we live side by side with people who don't believe in God. They are doing their best to work with our language and words. It is our job to meet them halfway and be interpreters. You act like it's some sort of surprise that there would be problems and you expect the book to be perfect. I'm grateful it even exists. That is my choice.

Carol

From: DebraLee A. 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24661, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24642


Recap - Universal Father=infinity

Dear Stephen,

I hope you will read The Life and Teachings of Jesus in The Urantia Book.

Peace, DebraLee

From: Larry G. 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24663, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24641


Stephen T's new logic

Dear Stephen...

Stephen writes: I am trying to avoid "interpretation" as much as possible, and look directly, and as logically as possible, at what is actually being said. What I personally believe should not be at issue here.

Then he writes to Debralee: There is a great deal which can be gleaned from either book, but the key to this is discernment of the truth of what is ACTUALLY being said. This includes reading between the lines and interpreting the meanings.

Which way do you want it Stephen? Interpret or not interpret?

As I said before, all we have are interpretations. What you say the first paragraph ACTUALLY means IS your interpretation. Carol has tried to point out to you that reading the Urantia Papers is as much art as it is logic...to no avail, although you yourself say we have to read between the lines to understand.

Stephen writes: The foreward seems to do two things...in it's attempt to clear up confusion regarding terms such as God and Deity it has cateorized them by function. But what it does also is give license to use the terms interchangebly and this undermines functional clarity.

I have found no such confusion as undermining functional clarity regarding the interchangebility of these terms. I do see your confusion as you try and interpret the first paragraph.

Stephen continues: It opens the door to interpretation which can be manipulated so as to lead the reader to make false conclusions. Obviously the DC would be expected to make a decisive choice with regard to which term he/she uses in a sentence, and it would follow that this decisive usage would follow the functional requirements outlined in the Foreword. If we take that into consideration when reading the papers, we will find it to be telling. And this is what I have done.

This is so much smoke. What the DC was doing in this paragraph was to show how mankind was finally glomming onto the nature of God.

Stephen: It is apparent that the Universal Father is being functionally tied to "things and beings" and the Prophet is clearly distinguishing between the to funtional levels of creatorship domain...that of the Father, and that of the son. In this case, it links the UF to the creatorship domain of the sons. If so, all claims of the UF being the Father are a blasphemy.

Larry: It is true there are functional levels of creatorship domain. If you would but answer the concept that the Universal Father creates "things and beings" THROUGH his sons, you would not find yourself sitting on the horns of this self-created dilemma.

As we look at this issue...why do you continually avoid this point?

Stephen: The issue is one of usage then. I don't think that these terms are randomly interchangeble, we cannot assume that any term for Deity has equal value and can be mixed and matched on a whim, especially if clearing up confusion is your goal.

The issue, Stephen, is your inability to discern the relationship of how the Universal Father downstepped the creation of the universes of 'things an beings' with the creation of the Eternal Son and the Conjoint Actor...as outlined in the foreward.

Like Gene, I find devil's advocates rewarding in that it hones ones ability to deal with sophistry and can even bring to the surface certain truth, beauty and goodness.

Are you having any trouble with the second paragraph?

* * * * * * *

From: DebraLee A. 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24668, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24644


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Greetings Stephen,

Do you find truth anywhere, aside from the truth that we hold within? Of course living the truth is the important thing, but are we to trust no words, even words that ring true in our hearts?

I don't see any spiritual teachings in TUB that would send anyone spinning on their heels. I am not much educated and on top of that i'm not a deep thinker by nature, so very probably, I should not even join in these conversations. The entire Forward of TUB is beyond me, but I don't see this book as capable of harm except to the one who considers another book to be the whole truth, in which case of course, it is not the book but that person who has the problem.

Please enlighten me, if you care to.

Peace, DebraLee

From: Mark U. 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24669, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24663


Working through

Hello Larry and all,

Larry had said to Stephen T,

"It is true there are functional levels of creatorship domain. If you would but answer the concept that the Universal Father creates "things and beings" THROUGH his sons, you would not find yourself sitting on the horns of this self-created dilemma." Well put Larry.

Somewhere along the line someone used the idea of the Universal Father being the 'grandfather' and the Creator Sons being the 'fathers' of the universes.

Another helpful analogy might be to consider the house construction industry. (Not that I know much about it!) Say there is a company, Leisure Condominiums, and they are in the business of constructing townhouses. The company is on the stock exchange. The founder and CEO of the company is Mrs. Buildem, who is affectionately known to certain people higher up in the industry as 'Mrs. B'. Leisure Condominiums has many people in it's employ - like architects, engineers and general contractors.

Leisure Condominiums is constructing a new apartment complex downtown. Two traders are walking by the construction site, and one says to the other 'Leisure Condominium stock is up because of fine work like that.' Next, two architects from a nearby firm are going out for lunch and walk by the complex. One says to the other 'Did you know David Drawem did the work on that? Excellent drawing eh?' Next, two carpenters working down the street stroll by the construction site. One says to the other, 'Those guys are lucky working for Doug Kemp, he's one contractor who knows what he is doing." Later on that evening at a fundraising dinner, one dignitary is overheard to say to another, 'Did you know that Mrs. B is doing the complex downtown on Bay Street?'

So who is 'creating' the apartment complex? Leisure Condominiums? David Drawem the head architect? Doug Kemp the general contractor? Mrs. B, Founder and CEO? It all depends on what level one is talking. All are correct of course and there is no contradiction, for most of us anyway.

Mark

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24685, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Several Good Reasons

Hi all,

I thought I would pass on a post I found on ESG that I think you may find interesting. I have been given permission to use it from the author. In my opinion, I think it brings up issues that the UBRON community should not simply ignore, but rather take seriously.

Stephen

The post is as follows:

Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book. 2. The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God. 3. The Bible contradicts the UB and defines it as being in service to the Most High Evil in the universe, the Ancient of Days. 1. There is no need to address point one. This much is obvious. 2. Consider this. Father established HIS template and HIS methodology in how he delivers his Revelations. He sends the Son IN THE FLESH and in your face. The Son's ability to perform miracles is Father's Imprimatur to the Son's mission. Furthermore, the Son Himself anoints teachers and He empowers them to perform miracles. THIS is the Son's Imprimatur! This is Father's methodology. Now, does the Urantia Book fit these criteria? You can 'choose' to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father's methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book? Are its unidentifiable authors really looking out for your best interests? Where is The Son and why hasn't he spoken up for this purportedly 'holy' work? The answer is coded in the Bible and I'm going to share the discovery with you. 3. The Ancient of Days The Book of Daniel gives voice to the existence of a character who has a highly elevated opinion of himself, the Ancient of Days. He calls himself 'The Most High'. Those dedicated to the service of The Son would consider Jesus to be the Most High. There can be only one. DAN 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The Ancient of Days declares 'his kingdom'. DAN 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (referencing the Ancient of Days) The Son of God declares 'His kingdom'. REV 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; (referencing Jesus) These verses are in direct and deliberate conflict. If we draw the numbers into a mathematical equation we arrive at this: AOD = (1000 x 1000's) + (10,000 x 10,000) SON = (10,000 x 10,000) + (1,000 x 1000's) We can see that if were to complete the equation, we'd arrive at the same number. The only difference, and it is a big difference, is that the numbers are REVERSED. This is what it means: If we do the multiplication and addition, we will arrive at the same number. This represents the 'kingdom'. The Ancient of Days lays claim to the very domain that The Son of God states is His. This is the defining boundary of the war in heaven, at attempt by a functionary to usurp the throne of God. The messaging of the reversal is clear. The AOD is opposite the Son. The AOD is against The Son. The AOD is anti The Son The AOD is ANTI-CHRIST (The Most High Anti-Christ) Were this the only exemplar of a reversal one might consider it anomalous. It is not. To date, the prophecies of the Apostle John have been 100% correct. We know who John was. We know he stood in service to The Christ. We know that Jesus so trusted him as to place the welfare of his mother into his hands. Yet NO ONE will tell you who wrote the Urantia Book. Like any good con job, the con artist gives you a plethora of reasons why this or that can't be including the fact that they consider you 'lowly mortals' to be morons. The Son of God didn't have a problem - HE TOLD US! He didn't hide. Can you establish the loyalty to the Son of God by those who are purported to write the Urantia Book? No! The loyalty of the Apostle John is without question. The Urantia Book has one purpose and one purpose only. This is to delude you away from your ascendancy. If you want the truth, you need only look to the words of The Son. What He said and the exemplars of His life, are ENOUGH! Defiance to Evil is Service to God. I whole-heartedly suggest you abandon this fifty-year-old delusion and return to the two thousand year old source the one that began with The Son of God Himself. I've made my stand - how about you? You are welcome to discuss these matters at http://www.ubook.org Has it been a while since you posted on Ubron? Did you find it difficult or uncomfortable to share your views without some cut and paste overlord looking down on you telling how stupid you must be? Don't you think its time for a change? Caligastia Lanonandek

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/6/02
Msg. No: 24686, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24668


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Debralee,

Do you find truth anywhere, aside from the truth that we hold within? Of course living the truth is the important thing, but are we to trust no words, even words that ring true in our hearts?

ST: Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater...but have the discernment to know which is the baby and which is the bathwater.

I don't see any spiritual teachings in TUB that would send anyone spinning on their heels. I am not much educated and on top of that i'm not a deep thinker by nature, so very probably, I should not even join in these conversations. The entire Forward of TUB is beyond me, but I don't see this book as capable of harm except to the one who considers another book to be the whole truth, in which case of course, it is not the book but that person who has the problem.

ST: If you are the deep thinker that you say, then do the research...see for yourself. A little efort can go a long way.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24687, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24663


Stephen T's new logic

Larry,

Stephen writes: I am trying to avoid "interpretation" as much as possible, and look directly, and as logically as possible, at what is actually being said. What I personally believe should not be at issue here.

Then he writes to Debralee: There is a great deal which can be gleaned from either book, but the key to this is discernment of the truth of what is ACTUALLY being said. This includes reading between the lines and interpreting the meanings. Which way do you want it Stephen? Interpret or not interpret? ST: My comment to Debralee is about personal interpretation. In my public discussion I am trying to keep it to the facts.

As I said before, all we have are interpretations. What you say the first paragraph ACTUALLY means IS your interpretation. Carol has tried to point out to you that reading the Urantia Papers is as much art as it is logic...to no avail, although you yourself say we have to read between the lines to understand.

ST: if it has to be an art form hen everyone will paint their own picture...God in man's image. That does not bring clarity now does it?

Stephen writes: The foreward seems to do two things...in it's attempt to clear up confusion regarding terms such as God and Deity it has cateorized them by function. But what it does also is give license to use the terms interchangebly and this undermines functional clarity.

I have found no such confusion as undermining functional clarity regarding the interchangebility of these terms. I do see your confusion as you try and interpret the first paragraph.

ST: Read it, God can be a designation which refers to any level of Deity manifestation.

Stephen continues: It opens the door to interpretation which can be manipulated so as to lead the reader to make false conclusions. Obviously the DC would be expected to make a decisive choice with regard to which term he/she uses in a sentence, and it would follow that this decisive usage would follow the functional requirements outlined in the Foreword. If we take that into consideration when reading the papers, we will find it to be telling. And this is what I have done.

This is so much smoke. What the DC was doing in this paragraph was to show how mankind was finally glomming onto the nature of God.

ST: If that is how you read it, then I have nothing I can say which will change your BELIEF.

Stephen: It is apparent that the Universal Father is being functionally tied to "things and beings" and the Prophet is clearly distinguishing between the to funtional levels of creatorship domain...that of the Father, and that of the son. In this case, it links the UF to the creatorship domain of the sons. If so, all claims of the UF being the Father are a blasphemy.

Larry: It is true there are functional levels of creatorship domain. If you would but answer the concept that the Universal Father creates "things and beings" THROUGH his sons, you would not find yourself sitting on the horns of this self-created dilemma.

As we look at this issue...why do you continually avoid this point?

ST: Because I am reading exactly what it SAYS.

Stephen: The issue is one of usage then. I don't think that these terms are randomly interchangeble, we cannot assume that any term for Deity has equal value and can be mixed and matched on a whim, especially if clearing up confusion is your goal.

The issue, Stephen, is your inability to discern the relationship of how the Universal Father downstepped the creation of the universes of 'things an beings' with the creation of the Eternal Son and the Conjoint Actor...as outlined in the foreward.

ST: But what does it actually say.

Like Gene, I find devil's advocates rewarding in that it hones ones ability to deal with sophistry and can even bring to the surface certain truth, beauty and goodness.

Are you having any trouble with the second paragraph?

We will get to that later, let's get through this first.

Stephen

From: Nancy B. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24689, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24685


Several Good Reasons

Stephen Robert -

Surely you know why the one who calls himself Caligastia would be so anti the Ancient of Days. Surely you realize that Caligastia's final adjudication rests in their domain. Surely his desperate attempts to disparage the Urantia Book teachings is because he believes himself to be the fallen prince and realizes the more earthlings who come to accept these teachings, the more the energy for good will increase. As this phenomenon grows in depth and breadth, Caligastia exponentially loses his grip on the last vestiges of the battle he fights within himself.

He's slipping into darkness....as the song goes....and this void is where he will meet his destiny.

Yes, there is no wonder why he rails so against those who execute the final orders.

How the ego tips it's hand, Stephen Robert - AKA ?

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24693, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply m to: 24689


Several Good Reasons

Nancy,

We are still left with the issues he raised.

Stephen

From: Steve R. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24695, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24693


Several Good Reasons

Actually I was sort of wondering the same thing Nancy was. Interesting.

From: Sam C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24696, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
General , Reply to: 24685


Several Good Reasons

Several Good Reasons

Oh boy, I should probably have my head examined for attempting to refute the arguments of a Lanonandek Son. I am only a mortal creature of the realm and fall far short of the inherent brilliance and capabilities of one of such a high order. I will do as best I can and openly ask for the assistance and protection of the Lanonandek Order of Beings from any reprisals that this rebellious member of their Order might choose to visit on me as fear that I would not fare well alone.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron: 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book.

SAM REPLIES: The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God.

SAM REPLIES: Many things have been revealed to me from the Urantia Book. Things that exist in the universe at large. This is the nature of revelation. Caligastia has revealed nothing other than his own malfeasance in office and failure to perform the duties which he had agreed on before he was granted permission to minister to our primitive forefathers. If Caligastia was in disagreement with the established methods and administrative techniques of the Universe and wished to do things differently it was not necessary for him to isolate us from the rest of universe so that he could prosecute his plans secretly and privately on the innocent beings who live here. He should have taken up his concerns or issues with his equals or with the millions of other beings of a high order who participate in this already established method of administration.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: You can ‘choose’ to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father’s methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book?

SAM REPLIES: Don’t you just love people who try to grant you what is already yours?, "like your ability to choose?" Talk about "not conforming to methodology"! This is a hell of an indictment to make coming from someone who abdicated on their sworn duty to uphold that very methodology in a position of high trust and great responsibility for the care and teaching of almost completely helpless and primitive beings. And The Urantia Book would hardly have been necessary were it not for Caligastia default to begin with. I might add that The Urantia Book as a revelation was only granted upon the LEGITIMATE petition of those responsible to clean up the mess that Caligastia had made. A process that Caligastia impunitively chose to ignore even though it was open to him. There is nothing about Caligastia’s complaints that could not have been addressed without causing the isolation of millions of innocent beings in the process.

MY DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS: I should know better than to attempt to argue with or dispute the declarations of one who by birth is thousands of times more brilliant and capable than I. I know we have been told in The Urantia Book that wars in heaven are fought with words and that the arguments put forth by the rebellious persons who have put us in this isolated position are sophisticated and have even fooled angels and numbers of other orders of beings. So I will not try to address each and every statement made by this person who claims to be "Caligastia of the Lanonandek Order". I have my doubts about that but I also fear that he might be who he says he is and what that might mean for me personally. If he is, then why is he trying to convince us of anything anyway. If any of what he is saying has any value or use or truth in it then why not take it up with his equals or secure validation and backing from the multitude of higher orders of beings that are in a position to assess his claims in the light of experience and attainment. His shameful attempt to continue his perfidy by appealing to and challenging the reason and good sense of mere mortals who already suffer the consequences of his actions has got to be a new low. I openly and humbly ask any of the Honorable Order of Lanonandek Sons to please deliver us from the actions of this their wayward member. We are only mortal and should not be required to battle our betters.

Fraternally Offered,

Samuel C.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24697, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24696


Several Good Reasons

Sam,

CALIGASTIA SAYS: Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron: 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book.

SAM REPLIES: The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.

ST: Can you? If so, please be forthcoming, I think there a lot of people who would love to hear it.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God.

SAM REPLIES: Many things have been revealed to me from the Urantia Book. Things that exist in the universe at large. This is the nature of revelation. Caligastia has revealed nothing other than his own malfeasance in office and failure to perform the duties which he had agreed on before he was granted permission to minister to our primitive forefathers. If Caligastia was in disagreement with the established methods and administrative techniques of the Universe and wished to do things differently it was not necessary for him to isolate us from the rest of universe so that he could prosecute his plans secretly and privately on the innocent beings who live here. He should have taken up his concerns or issues with his equals or with the millions of other beings of a high order who participate in this already established method of administration.

ST: Caligastia has revealed a great deal...check out planetaryhq.com. All of your comments are based on assumptions made as a result of what the Urantia Book says. What is in question is the validity of the opinions expressed in the book which claims to be a revelation but which offers no evidence to support such a claim, and which does not conform to simple standards expressed in Cal's presentation. I submit that you have not made your case.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: You can 'choose' to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father's methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book?

SAM REPLIES: Don't you just love people who try to grant you what is already yours?, "like your ability to choose?" Talk about "not conforming to methodology"! This is a hell of an indictment to make coming from someone who abdicated on their sworn duty to uphold that very methodology in a position of high trust and great responsibility for the care and teaching of almost completely helpless and primitive beings. And The Urantia Book would hardly have been necesary were it not for Caligastias default to begin with. I might add that The Urantia Book as a revelation was only granted upon the LEGITIMATE petition of those responsible to clean up the mess that Caligastia had made. A process that Caligastia impunitively chose to ignore even though it was open to him. There is nothing about Caligastias complaints that could not have been addressed without causing the isolation of millions of innocent beings in the process.

MY DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS: I should know better than to attempt to argue with or dispute the declarations of one who by birth is thousands of times more brilliant and capable than I. I know we have been told in The Urantia Book that wars in heaven are fought with words and that the arguments put forth by the rebellious persons who have put us in this isolated position are sophisticated and have even fooled angels and numbers of other orders of beings. So I will not try to address each and every statement made by this person who claims to be "Caligastia of the Lanonandeck Order". I have my doubts about that but I also fear that he might be who he says he is and what that might mean for me personally. If he is, then why is he trying to convince us of anything anyway. If any of what he is saying has any value or use or truth in it then why not take it up with his equals or secure validation and backing from the multitude of higher orders of beings that are in a position to assess his claims in the light of experience and attainment. His shameful attempt to continue his perfidy by appealing to and challenging the reason and good sense of mere mortals who already suffer the consequences of his actions has got to be a new low. I openly and humbly ask any of the Honorable Order of Lanonandeck Sons to please deliver us from the actions of this their wayward member. We are only mortal and should not be required to battle our betters.

ST: I think you are ignoring the simple facts presented as evidence and are relying upon belief alone. A little effort at research could go a long way in the discovery of the truth. Don't be lazy, do your homework.

Stephen

From: Sam C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24698, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
General , Reply to: 24697


Several Good Reasons

Several Good Reasons

Sam,

CALIGASTIA SAYS: Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron: 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book.

SAM REPLIES: The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.

ST: Can you? If so, please be forthcoming, I think there a lot of people who would love to hear it.

SAM REPLIES TO STEPHEN THORBURN: MR. THORBURN OR WHOEVER YOU ARE: I offer no proof because none is needed. In the matter of things spiritual a much more reliable standard of authentication is available, I suggest you search your heart, fall on your knees and pray to God that you may find it.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God.

SAM REPLIES: Many things have been revealed to me from the Urantia Book. Things that exist in the universe at large. This is the nature of revelation. Caligastia has revealed nothing other than his own malfeasance in office and failure to perform the duties which he had agreed on before he was granted permission to minister to our primitive forefathers. If Caligastia was in disagreement with the established methods and administrative techniques of the Universe and wished to do things differently it was not necessary for him to isolate us from the rest of universe so that he could prosecute his plans secretly and privately on the innocent beings who live here. He should have taken up his concerns or issues with his equals or with the millions of other beings of a high order who participate in this already established method of administration.

ST: Caligastia has revealed a great deal...check out planetaryhq.com. All of your comments are based on assumptions made as a result of what the Urantia Book says. What is in question is the validity of the opinions expressed in the book which claims to be a revelation but which offers no evidence to support such a claim, and which does not conform to simple standards expressed in Cal’s presentation. I submit that you have not made your case.

SAM REPLIES TO STEPHEN THORBURN: I have no intention or need to walk into the web of deceit and misrepresentation that you would direct me to. Whatever you have to say you can say plainly here on these pages. Why would I want to choose as a standard for authentication of anything the criterion created by the same treacherous person who so coldly cast aside the well being of so many?

CALIGASTIA SAYS: You can ‘choose’ to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father’s methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book?

SAM REPLIES: Don’t you just love people who try to grant you what is already yours?, "like your ability to choose?" Talk about "not conforming to methodology"! This is a hell of an indictment to make coming from someone who abdicated on their sworn duty to uphold that very methodology in a position of high trust and great responsibility for the care and teaching of almost completely helpless and primitive beings. And The Urantia Book would hardly have been necesary were it not for Caligastias default to begin with. I might add that The Urantia Book as a revelation was only granted upon the LEGITIMATE petition of those responsible to clean up the mess that Caligastia had made. A process that Caligastia impunitively chose to ignore even though it was open to him. There is nothing about Caligastias complaints that could not have been addressed without causing the isolation of millions of innocent beings in the process.

MY DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS: I should know better than to attempt to argue with or dispute the declarations of one who by birth is thousands of times more brilliant and capable than I. I know we have been told in The Urantia Book that wars in heaven are fought with words and that the arguments put forth by the rebellious persons who have put us in this isolated position are sophisticated and have even fooled angels and numbers of other orders of beings. So I will not try to address each and every statement made by this person who claims to be "Caligastia of the Lanonandek Order". I have my doubts about that but I also fear that he might be who he says he is and what that might mean for me personally. If he is, then why is he trying to convince us of anything anyway. If any of what he is saying has any value or use or truth in it then why not take it up with his equals or secure validation and backing from the multitude of higher orders of beings that are in a position to assess his claims in the light of experience and attainment. His shameful attempt to continue his perfidy by appealing to and challenging the reason and good sense of mere mortals who already suffer the consequences of his actions has got to be a new low. I openly and humbly ask any of the Honorable Order of Lanonandek Sons to please deliver us from the actions of this their wayward member. We are only mortal and should not be required to battle our betters.

ST: I think you are ignoring the simple facts presented as evidence and are relying upon belief alone. A little effort at research could go a long way in the discovery of the truth. Don’t be lazy, do your homework.

SAM REPLIES TO STEPHEN THORBURN: Stephen, I am grateful that I have the capacity to believe. That I am ignorant is of no shame to me. Your attempt to guide me into a morass of false reasoning and shabby logic by calling me lazy is a pointless waste of time and energy on your part that would be better spent tending to your own soul. Suggesting that I follow your lead so that truth might be revealed to me is but a peon to your vanity. I will pray for you, Stephen, that you may open your heart to Gods mercy. Even now, he awaits the slightest sign from you. Please do not harden your heart to Him. You are the only one of you we've got. Your brilliance and your mind are needed in His service, Stephen, do not let your pride of mind be the author of your own doom, or seek to be the author of mine.

Your Brother,

Sam

From: Rick C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24703, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24686


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Stephen,

I am slow and only received the truth about your motives this morning.

Stephen, There is a statement in the u-book that states that the u- book is not a revelation from God, and we do not take it as such. It is a compilation of papers prepared by the family of Gods descendants, but is not claimed to be a revelation from God himself, so this makes a non issue of the first statement.

The second statement about numerical values, are just that, (numbers). I could equate numbers to almost everything and it wouldn't mean good or bad, so your second statement doesn't hold value.

Stephen, wheather you realize it or not, it's over. You have made your choices.

You have once again failed to perceive the Iam, and his decendants. The reason you fail to perceive is, you abandoned your faith for self gratification, and now have to rely on ego, instead of faith based understanding.

I do not see, how one could not perceive the Father, everything in our reality declares Him. I can look nowhere that he is not declared, even in your own being.

It maybe at the point of the event horizion of infinity verses actuality, you get lost, or can not accept the reality of the infinite.

We have learned in our science, there is much that the eyes and senses can't detect, but through devices are apparently real.

Stephen, you have made your choices. You have contemplated them and now wish to spread them to children of faith, but Stephen you fool none, because our faith reveales your motives, and we've been there and have heard that song before.

Logic is the highest you can hope to ascend to when ego is the motive Stephen, and you have made your choices, and now you must live with you, but we do not have to heed your words wrought in self centered and near sightedness.

Indeed we have stepped beyond where you can ever hope to go.

o2b1

From: Rick C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24706, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials


My Words

Hi Folks,

For what it is worth:

Stephen Thorburn is here under the guise of truth seeking, but in actaulity is here to plead his case to the court of public opinion, not enlightenment, and through ego based logic desires to bring you with him, into his eternal doward spiraling pit.

Woe to you Stephen, mouthpiece of the fallen one: woe to you Stephen, mouthpiece of the vial one: Woe to you Stephen, mouthpiece of the deceived one: Woe to you Stephen, Thief of Gods children: Woe to you Stephen, Rejector of Gods mercy:

Did you really think your motives could be hidden?

Woe unto you Stephen, who desires to lead the faithful into your bottomless pit of dispare. Woe unto you Stephen, child of the wicked.

You know of who I am, and by what authority I say these thing to you Stephen. Woe unto You.

02b1

From: Nancy B. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24707, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
General , Reply to: 24693


Several Good Reasons

Hi Stephen -

You Wrote:

We are still left with the issues he raised.

My Comment:

And I am still left with the information I presented to you a few days ago - trying to explain the reason for your confusion over the first paragraph of the first paper of the Urantia Book.

Perhaps you missed reading it and that is why you never replied.

Just in case, I am posting it again for your edification.

Perhaps this will help clear up your misperceptions.

From a Previous Post:

In order to understand the first paragraph of the Urantia Book the way you seem to be straining to do - you might want to read the Urantia Book Forward.

In order to understand the concept of the First Source and Center you have to backtrack your mind and open it a crack.

Try it this way. Even though finite minds cannot understand infinity - especially the minds that inhabit bodies which spring forth from this lowly, backwards planet - in order to begin to comprehend this paragraph one must be able to envision a "zero age". Zero is the key which is imperative to your comprehension. For instance, zero is not marked on a ruler - but it is actually the mark we start measurment at.

This is God before being named. This is God before creation.

At the "zero age" God has and inside, but not an outside - a within, but not a without, no past and no future. God Is. God is unqualiafied - because there is nothing that is in existence to qualify Him/Her/It.

In this state God is static and potential and the very definition of existential. Perhaps you cannot envision this state as factual reality, but it certainly is a valid concept in trying to penetrate pre-space and pre-time as the timebound, spacebound creatures that we are.

God, as the First Source and Center, is the pre-Father God. We can look at Him/Her/It as total stability with no need for factual reality. There is quietness and no movement in this state. This is how you are getting tripped up in your quest to understand this paragraph.

And another place you might be getting tripped up is by not understanding this enigma continues to be a valid concept as I write these words today - since it still exists in pre-space and pre-time!

As soon as God begins to move (create or plan for creation) He/She begins to move from the Unqualified Absolute to the Qualified Absolute - what else could it be - and has become the SOURCE of all things - of everything - and therefore, the parent of all things and everything including Him/Her/Itself.

Once the Trinity and Paradise is manifested - time and space begin. From this Trinity God downsteps Him/Herself in a myriad of ways - not the least of which is through the creation of the Michael Sons and the Creative Daughter Spirits who go out into the universes and create.

In a small sense you're correct in the perception of your confusion - but your confusion stems from a lack of information and/or understanding/comprehension - or an inability on your part to be able to conceive the ideas given in the book. There is a hypothetical pre-Father, pre-Trinity, zero-age to consider when contemplating the first paragraph of the Urantia Book you cite. This is why I invite you to puruse the Forward so that you might begin to gain knowledge and understanding of these concepts like the rest of us have struggled to do.

Hope this helps with your struggle.

Nancy

PS

I do hope you're not just attached to a dogmatic position on this issue because you're an antagonistic Christian Fundamentalist, quasai intellectual or an ordinary agnostic, perhaps (yawn) athiest in search of the mythical, anti-Christ to prove some out-dated, out-moded point. If that were true, your mind will not budge an inch - no matter how much information is given to aid your understanding of this paragraph, now would it.

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24708, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24685


Several Good Reasons

Dear Stephen and ALL on this Thread:

PLEASE CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION ON PURPORTED CELESTIALS

Thanks...peace 'n' love

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stephen posted the following from a Purported Celestial:

Hi all,

I thought I would pass on a post I found on ESG that I think you may find interesting. I have been given permission to use it from the author. In my opinion, I think it brings up issues that the UBRON community should not simply ignore, but rather take seriously.

Stephen

The post is as follows:

Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book. 2. The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God. 3. The Bible contradicts the UB and defines it as being in service to the Most High Evil in the universe, the Ancient of Days. 1. There is no need to address point one. This much is obvious. 2. Consider this. Father established HIS template and HIS methodology in how he delivers his Revelations. He sends the Son IN THE FLESH and in your face. The Son's ability to perform miracles is Father's Imprimatur to the Son's mission. Furthermore, the Son Himself anoints teachers and He empowers them to perform miracles. THIS is the Son's Imprimatur! This is Father's methodology. Now, does the Urantia Book fit these criteria? You can 'choose' to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father's methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book? Are its unidentifiable authors really looking out for your best interests? Where is The Son and why hasn't he spoken up for this purportedly 'holy' work? The answer is coded in the Bible and I'm going to share the discovery with you. 3. The Ancient of Days The Book of Daniel gives voice to the existence of a character who has a highly elevated opinion of himself, the Ancient of Days. He calls himself 'The Most High'. Those dedicated to the service of The Son would consider Jesus to be the Most High. There can be only one. DAN 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The Ancient of Days declares 'his kingdom'. DAN 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (referencing the Ancient of Days) The Son of God declares 'His kingdom'. REV 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; (referencing Jesus) These verses are in direct and deliberate conflict. If we draw the numbers into a mathematical equation we arrive at this: AOD = (1000 x 1000's) + (10,000 x 10,000) SON = (10,000 x 10,000) + (1,000 x 1000's) We can see that if were to complete the equation, we'd arrive at the same number. The only difference, and it is a big difference, is that the numbers are REVERSED. This is what it means: If we do the multiplication and addition, we will arrive at the same number. This represents the 'kingdom'. The Ancient of Days lays claim to the very domain that The Son of God states is His. This is the defining boundary of the war in heaven, at attempt by a functionary to usurp the throne of God. The messaging of the reversal is clear. The AOD is opposite the Son. The AOD is against The Son. The AOD is anti The Son The AOD is ANTI-CHRIST (The Most High Anti-Christ) Were this the only exemplar of a reversal one might consider it anomalous. It is not. To date, the prophecies of the Apostle John have been 100% correct. We know who John was. We know he stood in service to The Christ. We know that Jesus so trusted him as to place the welfare of his mother into his hands. Yet NO ONE will tell you who wrote the Urantia Book. Like any good con job, the con artist gives you a plethora of reasons why this or that can't be including the fact that they consider you 'lowly mortals' to be morons. The Son of God didn't have a problem - HE TOLD US! He didn't hide. Can you establish the loyalty to the Son of God by those who are purported to write the Urantia Book? No! The loyalty of the Apostle John is without question. The Urantia Book has one purpose and one purpose only. This is to delude you away from your ascendancy. If you want the truth, you need only look to the words of The Son. What He said and the exemplars of His life, are ENOUGH! Defiance to Evil is Service to God. I whole-heartedly suggest you abandon this fifty-year-old delusion and return to the two thousand year old source the one that began with The Son of God Himself. I've made my stand - how about you? You are welcome to discuss these matters at http://www.ubook.org Has it been a while since you posted on Ubron? Did you find it difficult or uncomfortable to share your views without some cut and paste overlord looking down on you telling how stupid you must be? Don't you think its time for a change? Caligastia Lanonandek

From: DebraLee A. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24713, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials


StephenT.

Greetings to,

Rick C.,Sam C. Tiahuan, Nancy, Tod L., and Steve R.

You are all great champions of the light!!....Thank You!!

..........Peace, DebraLee

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24721, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24698


Several Good Reasons

Sam,

SAM REPLIES TO STEPHEN THORBURN: MR. THORBURN OR WHOEVER YOU ARE: I offer no proof because none is needed. In the matter of things spiritual a much more reliable standard of authentication is available, I suggest you search your heart, fall on your knees and pray to God that you may find it.

Mere belief in a thing does not make it so, and certainly does not rise to the level of proof or evidence. Who is the author then...why have you not offered an answer? It is because you can't.

SAM REPLIES TO STEPHEN THORBURN: I have no intention or need to walk into the web of deceit and misrepresentation that you would direct me to. Whatever you have to say you can say plainly here on these pages. Why would I want to choose as a standard for authentication of anything the criterion created by the same treacherous person who so coldly cast aside the well being of so many?

Clearly you have made assumptions about material you have not read and now you use those assumptions as a excuse not to read...where will this get you? When you first were introduced to the UB, did you not use an open mind long enough to read it through? Where is that open mind now? As to being able to plainly speak "here on these pages" it is simply not so. I have been publically warned not to do so. You have not prooved the veracity of the book which proposes those characterizations you have used to base your assumptions and subsequent beliefs upon.

SAM REPLIES TO STEPHEN THORBURN: Stephen, I am grateful that I have the capacity to believe. That I am ignorant is of no shame to me. Your attempt to guide me into a morass of false reasoning and shabby logic by calling me lazy is a pointless waste of time and energy on your part that would be better spent tending to your own soul. Suggesting that I follow your lead so that truth might be revealed to me is but a peon to your vanity. I will pray for you, Stephen, that you may open your heart to Gods mercy. Even now, he awaits the slightest sign from you. Please do not harden your heart to Him. You are the only one of you we've got. Your brilliance and your mind are needed in His service, Stephen, do not let your pride of mind be the author of your own doom, or seek to be the author of mine.

Belief without facts equals delusion. Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too?

Stephen

From: Larry G. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24723, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24696


Several Good Reasons

Dear Sam...

Sam writes: I will do as best I can and openly ask for the assistance and protection of the Lanonandek Order of Beings from any reprisals that this rebellious member of their Order might choose to visit on me as fear that I would not fare well alone.

Not to worry. I got your back.

Stephen T is more slippery than those eels I used to commercially catch on the Altamaha River in Georgia. But we caught about 500 pounds a week...and I don't think Stephen weighs that much.

* * * * * * *

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24724, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24707


Several Good Reasons

Nancy,

From a Previous Post:

ST: Thank you for reposting.

In order to understand the first paragraph of the Urantia Book the way you seem to be straining to do - you might want to read the Urantia Book Forward.

ST: I have and I quote "GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. The term requires a different definition on each level of Deity function and must be still further redifined wihin each of these levels, as this term may be used to designate the diverse co-ordinate and subordinate personalizations of Deity; for example: the Paradise Creator Sons - the local universe fathers." A careful read of this passage supports all the points I have raised with regards to paper 1 paragraph 1.

In order to understand the concept of the First Source and Center you have to backtrack your mind and open it a crack.

ST: Open wide, but nothing is being offered which addresses the points raised.

Try it this way. Even though finite minds cannot understand infinity - especially the minds that inhabit bodies which spring forth from this lowly, backwards planet - in order to begin to comprehend this paragraph one must be able to envision a "zero age". Zero is the key which is imperative to your comprehension. For instance, zero is not marked on a ruler - but it is actually the mark we start measurment at.

ST: Time is really irrelevent to this issue. This is just an excuse to ignore the Foreward's efforts to define terms in accordance with their function...something which I brought up as evidence to support my argument.

This is God before being named. This is God before creation.

At the "zero age" God has and inside, but not an outside - a within, but not a without, no past and no future. God Is. God is unqualiafied - because there is nothing that is in existence to qualify Him/Her/It.

In this state God is static and potential and the very definition of existential. Perhaps you cannot envision this state as factual reality, but it certainly is a valid concept in trying to penetrate pre-space and pre-time as the timebound, spacebound creatures that we are.

God, as the First Source and Center, is the pre-Father God. We can look at Him/Her/It as total stability with no need for factual reality. There is quietness and no movement in this state. This is how you are getting tripped up in your quest to understand this paragraph.

ST: that simply does not jive with what the DC quotes the Prophet as saying. And it is the DC which brings up the Prophet...not me.

And another place you might be getting tripped up is by not understanding this enigma continues to be a valid concept as I write these words today - since it still exists in pre-space and pre-time!

ST: This is cute...using an enigma as a proof for a proposition that I am getting "tripped up". Using "enigma" and "valid concept" in the same sentence in this manner is an oxymoron.

As soon as God begins to move (create or plan for creation) He/She begins to move from the Unqualified Absolute to the Qualified Absolute - what else could it be - and has become the SOURCE of all things - of everything - and therefore, the parent of all things and everything including Him/Her/Itself.

ST: So are you suggesting the the Prophet (quoted by the DC) is wrong? Or is the DC wrong in quoting the Prophet? Or was the Prophet misquoted?

Once the Trinity and Paradise is manifested - time and space begin. From this Trinity God downsteps Him/Herself in a myriad of ways - not the least of which is through the creation of the Michael Sons and the Creative Daughter Spirits who go out into the universes and create.

ST: But that is not what it says in the paragraph in question.

In a small sense you're correct in the perception of your confusion - but your confusion stems from a lack of information and/or understanding/comprehension - or an inability on your part to be able to conceive the ideas given in the book. There is a hypothetical pre-Father, pre-Trinity, zero-age to consider when contemplating the first paragraph of the Urantia Book you cite. This is why I invite you to puruse the Forward so that you might begin to gain knowledge and understanding of these concepts like the rest of us have struggled to do.

ST: I have been studying the UB for over 15 yrs. If you read carfully what the Foreward says, you will see that what I have been saying is supported therein.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24728, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Personal attacks

All these personal attacks I have been receiving lately are very telling...about the character of those who indulge in them.

Stephen

From: Larry G. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24731, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24728


Personal attacks

All these personal attacks I have been receiving lately are very telling...about the character of those who indulge in them. Stephen

Dear Stephen...

As far as I am concerned you are welcome on UBRON to discuss or even argue about the Urantia Book or any subject that hinges upon its teachings however remote.

You are not welcome, however, to proselyte for another forum that promotes Caligastia in whatever guise.

If you continue to do so you will find out much more about my character than you really want to know.

* * * * * * *

From: Steve R. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24736, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24713


StephenT.

Debralee, Thank you! And I want you to know that I consiider you one of the most positive and loving influences on UBRON. You have a wonderful attitude, it does not go un-noticed here, and I'm sure many, many here feel the same way. :)

From: Steve R. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24738, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24728


Personal attacks

Stephen, I submit to you that they are more telling about you. You have heard of action/reaction no doubt? Perhaps someone is reading in between YOUR lines. Premeditated or not, you are projecting something that is drawing this towards you. Don't they call that karma?

From: Dale A. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24740, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Several Good Reasons?

Hi Stephen:

Among others items, you offered that "The Bible contradicts the UB .."

Well, how-about The Bible contradicts Itself?

Is that any reason to toss the baby (belief in God) out with the

bathwater (belief in The Bible)?

Aside from The Urantia Book offering contradictions of The Bible within

itself, and even clarifying many, there are both believing and non-

believing web-sites that offer the most basic lists of contradictions,

all not even professing awareness, much less belief in The Urantia

Book.

Such is one:

http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html

Such logic defies substance... if one were to stand by logic alone.

still,

peas,

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24741, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24723


Several Good Reasons

Dear Sam...

You are doing a great job of detecting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And "Fear Not", while Larry is busy doing a great job, there are other influences too...153:4.1...when the Master's spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings. ... AND ... 194:2.2 (Pentecost)... The first mission of this spirit is, of course, to foster and personalize truth, for it is the comprehension of truth that constitutes the highest form of human liberty. Next, it is the purpose of this spirit to destroy the believer's feeling of orphanhood. Jesus having been among men, all believers would experience a sense of loneliness had not the Spirit of Truth come to dwell in men's hearts.

195:7.23 The scientist, not science, perceives the reality of an evolving and advancing universe of energy and matter. The artist, not art, demonstrates the existence of the transient morontia world intervening between material existence and spiritual liberty. The religionist, not religion, proves the existence of the spirit realities and divine values which are to be encountered in the progress of eternity.

195:7.8 ... Without the consciousness of the concept of values within the spirit-born mind, the fact of universe materialism and the mechanistic phenomena of universe operation would be wholly unrecognized by man.

Holly here: And anybody who fails to recognize the real truth is not endowed by this Spirit of Truth and can not be thus guided by him, until and unless this Spirit is allowed or invited in.

Love, peace and blessings, Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Sam...

Sam writes: I will do as best I can and openly ask for the assistance and protection of the Lanonandek Order of Beings from any reprisals that this rebellious member of their Order might choose to visit on me as fear that I would not fare well alone.

Not to worry. I got your back.

Stephen T is more slippery than those eels I used to commercially catch on the Altamaha River in Georgia. But we caught about 500 pounds a week...and I don't think Stephen weighs that much.

* * * * * * *

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24742, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24724


Several Good Reasons

Stephen,

PLEASE CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION ON POLITICS AND DEBATES.

Thanks,

Peace 'n' love,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nancy,

From a Previous Post:

ST: Thank you for reposting.

In order to understand the first paragraph of the Urantia Book the way you seem to be straining to do - you might want to read the Urantia Book Forward.

ST: I have and I quote "GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. The term requires a different definition on each level of Deity function and must be still further redifined wihin each of these levels, as this term may be used to designate the diverse co-ordinate and subordinate personalizations of Deity; for example: the Paradise Creator Sons - the local universe fathers." A careful read of this passage supports all the points I have raised with regards to paper 1 paragraph 1.

In order to understand the concept of the First Source and Center you have to backtrack your mind and open it a crack.

ST: Open wide, but nothing is being offered which addresses the points raised.

Try it this way. Even though finite minds cannot understand infinity - especially the minds that inhabit bodies which spring forth from this lowly, backwards planet - in order to begin to comprehend this paragraph one must be able to envision a "zero age". Zero is the key which is imperative to your comprehension. For instance, zero is not marked on a ruler - but it is actually the mark we start measurment at.

ST: Time is really irrelevent to this issue. This is just an excuse to ignore the Foreward's efforts to define terms in accordance with their function...something which I brought up as evidence to support my argument.

This is God before being named. This is God before creation.

At the "zero age" God has and inside, but not an outside - a within, but not a without, no past and no future. God Is. God is unqualiafied - because there is nothing that is in existence to qualify Him/Her/It.

In this state God is static and potential and the very definition of existential. Perhaps you cannot envision this state as factual reality, but it certainly is a valid concept in trying to penetrate pre-space and pre-time as the timebound, spacebound creatures that we are.

God, as the First Source and Center, is the pre-Father God. We can look at Him/Her/It as total stability with no need for factual reality. There is quietness and no movement in this state. This is how you are getting tripped up in your quest to understand this paragraph.

ST: that simply does not jive with what the DC quotes the Prophet as saying. And it is the DC which brings up the Prophet...not me.

And another place you might be getting tripped up is by not understanding this enigma continues to be a valid concept as I write these words today - since it still exists in pre-space and pre-time!

ST: This is cute...using an enigma as a proof for a proposition that I am getting "tripped up". Using "enigma" and "valid concept" in the same sentence in this manner is an oxymoron.

As soon as God begins to move (create or plan for creation) He/She begins to move from the Unqualified Absolute to the Qualified Absolute - what else could it be - and has become the SOURCE of all things - of everything - and therefore, the parent of all things and everything including Him/Her/Itself.

ST: So are you suggesting the the Prophet (quoted by the DC) is wrong? Or is the DC wrong in quoting the Prophet? Or was the Prophet misquoted?

Once the Trinity and Paradise is manifested - time and space begin. From this Trinity God downsteps Him/Herself in a myriad of ways - not the least of which is through the creation of the Michael Sons and the Creative Daughter Spirits who go out into the universes and create.

ST: But that is not what it says in the paragraph in question.

In a small sense you're correct in the perception of your confusion - but your confusion stems from a lack of information and/or understanding/comprehension - or an inability on your part to be able to conceive the ideas given in the book. There is a hypothetical pre-Father, pre-Trinity, zero-age to consider when contemplating the first paragraph of the Urantia Book you cite. This is why I invite you to puruse the Forward so that you might begin to gain knowledge and understanding of these concepts like the rest of us have struggled to do.

ST: I have been studying the UB for over 15 yrs. If you read carfully what the Foreward says, you will see that what I have been saying is supported therein.

Stephen

From: Sam C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24745, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials


Several Good Reasons Cont. on PC

Several Good Reasons

NOTE: BEGIN FIRST SET HERE:

1A: CALIGASTIA MAINTAINED IN POST #24685 dated 1/06/02 Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron: 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book.

1B: SAM REPLIED IN POST #24696: The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.

1C: THORBURN COUNTERED IN POST #24697: ST: Can you? If so, please be forthcoming, I think there a lot of people who would love to hear it

1D: SAM REPLIED TO STEPHEN THORBURN IN POST #24698: I offer no proof because none is needed. In the matter of things spiritual a much more reliable standard of authentication is available, I suggest you search your heart, fall on your knees and pray to God that you may find it.

1E: THORBURN RETORTED IN POST#24721: Mere belief in a thing does not make it so, and certainly does not rise to the level of proof or evidence. Who is the author then...why have you not offered an answer? It is because you can't.

1F: SAM CONCLUDES IN A POSTING ON 1/07/02: One cannot rise from belief to proof; proof is the requirement of a lesser state of things and beings. Faith and belief are exercises of the spirit sponsored and maintained in the truth circuits of the Most Highs. You are offered everything but seem to accept little, I implore you once again, for the sake of those who love you, do not continue in this pathway of self-immolation. Even if you have not the courage to admit it to others, ask in your innermost self, within your own private self where nobody else need witness, for God to rip this unwanted burden you carry from your heart and fill it with His Love.

Like the Great Sun beknighted That courseth the sky

So Love once uplighted

Nevermore shall die. (George MacDonald circa 1670)

END FIRST SET BEGIN SECOND SET

2A: CALIGASTIA MAINTAINED IN POST #24685: The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God.

2B: SAM REPLIED IN POST #24696: Many things have been revealed to me from the Urantia Book. Things that exist in the universe at large. This is the nature of revelation. Caligastia has revealed nothing other than his own malfeasance in office and failure to perform the duties which he had agreed on before he was granted permission to minister to our primitive forefathers. If Caligastia was in disagreement with the established methods and administrative techniques of the Universe and wished to do things differently it was not necessary for him to isolate us from the rest of universe so that he could prosecute his plans secretly and privately on the innocent beings who live here. He should have taken up his concerns or issues with his equals or with the millions of other beings of a high order who participate in this already established method of administration.

2C: THORBURN COUNTERED IN POST #24697 ST: Caligastia has revealed a great deal...check out planetaryhq.com. All of your comments are based on assumptions made as a result of what the Urantia Book says. What is in question is the validity of the opinions expressed in the book which claims to be a revelation but which offers no evidence to support such a claim, and which does not conform to simple standards expressed in Cal’s presentation. I submit that you have not made your case.

2D: SAM REPLIED TO STEPHEN THORBURN IN POST #24698: I have no intention or need to walk into the web of deceit and misrepresentation that you would direct me to. Whatever you have to say you can say plainly here on these pages. Why would I want to choose as a standard for authentication of anything the criterion created by the same treacherous person who so coldly cast aside the well being of so many?

2E: THORBURN RETORTS IN POST #24721 Clearly you have made assumptions about material you have not read and now you use those assumptions as an excuse not to read...where will this get you? When you first were introduced to the UB, did you not use an open mind long enough to read it through? Where is that open mind now? As to being able to plainly speak "here on these pages" it is simply not so. I have been publicly warned not to do so. You have not proved the veracity of the book which proposes those characterizations you have used to base your assumptions and subsequent beliefs upon.

2F: SAM CONCLUDES IN A POST ON 1/07/02

Once again you misapply concepts; In this instance you see indifference where there was deliberation; and are so unable to recognize a deliberated conclusion when you see one that you can only falsely name it with the only name you know.

Clear your mind of such sophomoric sophistries, my friend, for your mind is but a tool for the Heart and Soul of you to use. The mind is a wonderful servant but a poor master. You must keep it clean and well honed, like any tool you should only use it for the purpose for which it was designed and intended by its maker. Otherwise you spoil your work or damage the tool. Tell me, Stephen, tell me truly, do you know how to use tools?

My decision to refrain from entering the miasma of your creations is based on my observations of what I CAN see and hear about you.

Coupled with the voices of my heart and when my mind is stilled my thirst will not be quenched even by a cistern full of water, for it is well and truly said:

Be thy heart a well of Love, my child

Flowing and free and clear

For a cistern of love, though undefiled

Keeps not the Spirit pure. (Phantastes)

END SECOND SET BEGIN THIRD SET

3A: CALIGASTIA MAINTAINED IN POST #24685: You can ‘choose’ to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father’s methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book?

3B: SAM REPLIED IN POST #224696: Don’t you just love people who try to grant you what is already yours?, "like your ability to choose?" Talk about "not conforming to methodology"! This is a hell of an indictment to make coming from someone who abdicated on their sworn duty to uphold that very methodology in a position of high trust and great responsibility for the care and teaching of almost completely helpless and primitive beings. And The Urantia Book would hardly have been necessary were it not for Caligastia’s default to begin with. I might add that The Urantia Book as a revelation was only granted upon the LEGITIMATE petition of those responsible to clean up the mess that Caligastia had made. A process that Caligastia impunitively chose to ignore even though it was open to him. There is nothing about Caligastia’s complaints that could not have been addressed without causing the isolation of millions of innocent beings in the process.

3Bcont. (sam) MY DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS: I should know better than to attempt to argue with or dispute the declarations of one who by birth is thousands of times more brilliant and capable than I. I know we have been told in The Urantia Book that wars in heaven are fought with words and that the arguments put forth by the rebellious persons who have put us in this isolated position are sophisticated and have even fooled angels and numbers of other orders of beings. So I will not try to address each and every statement made by this person who claims to be "Caligastia of the Lanonandek Order". I have my doubts about that but I also fear that he might be who he says he is and what that might mean for me personally. If he is, then why is he trying to convince us of anything anyway. If any of what he is saying has any value or use or truth in it then why not take it up with his equals or secure validation and backing from the multitude of higher orders of beings that are in a position to assess his claims in the light of experience and attainment. His shameful attempt to continue his perfidy by appealing to and challenging the reason and good sense of mere mortals who already suffer the consequences of his actions has got to be a new low. I openly and humbly ask any of the Honorable Order of Lanonandek Sons to please deliver us from the actions of this their wayward member. We are only mortal and should not be required to battle our betters.

3C: THORBURN COUNTERED IN POST #24697: ST: I think you are ignoring the simple facts presented as evidence and are relying upon belief alone. A little effort at research could go a long way in the discovery of the truth. Don’t be lazy, do your homework.

3D: SAM REPLIED TO STEPHEN THORBURN IN POST #24698: Stephen, I am grateful that I have the capacity to believe. That I am ignorant is of no shame to me. Your attempt to guide me into a morass of false reasoning and shabby logic by calling me lazy is a pointless waste of time and energy on your part that would be better spent tending to your own soul. Suggesting that I follow your lead so that truth might be revealed to me is but a peon to your vanity. I will pray for you, Stephen, that you may open your heart to Gods mercy. Even now, he awaits the slightest sign from you. Please do not harden your heart to Him. You are the only one of you we've got. Your brilliance and your mind are needed in His service, Stephen, do not let your pride of mind be the author of your own doom, or seek to be the author of mine.

3E: THORBURN RETORTS IN POST #24721 Belief without facts equals delusion. Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too?

3F: SAM CONCLUDES IN A POST ON 1/07/02 a fact cannot Love you, Stephen, proofs only prove that we exist in a material world, they are confined to exist where they may serve you in some way in attaining a higher level of Universe understanding and service. Do not confuse that which has been created to serve you in your infancy with the attainment you seek. One is not the other.

That which has survival value in eternity is that which exists in eternity. Things such as; Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. If you value these things, if you revere them and seek to facilitate their expression through your being, even if you are a miserable failure by material standards, in the eyes of the Most Highs you are great. Greatness is not to be found in what we achieve, or what we can prove, but rather in what we seek to undertake. And, Stephen, frankly, I am not particularly inclined to undertake the gathering of bits and pieces of material this and logical that so that you may pronounce something authentic. It is as authentic as you are able to perceive it.

Do your proofs exist in eternity? Does the evidence you seek exist in eternity? GOOD GRIEF, stop the presses, that "Stephen fellow" on Urantia has found something that ‘matters". Bright fellow, that Stephen, we’ll need to keep an eye on him.

END THIRD SET

Fraternally Offered,

Samuel C.

From: Sam C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24751, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24713


StephenT.

Well, That's a very nice thing for you to say DebraLee, and thank you very much for putting me in such good company. I shall ever strive to maintain the confidence that such a gracious and spiritually fragrant person has chosen to bestow upon me.

In your service in the light,

Samuel C.

From: Sam C. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24771, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24741


Several Good Reasons

Several Good Reasons

"Thank You, Mrs. Holly Carmichael, for your recognition and support. And I must add that you have given me a great deal to chew on and that I wrestled with it mightily in an effort to deny it, but in the end the truth won out over my reticence and I saw the error in my thinking. I thank you for that and will now share it with you."

Dear Sam...

You are doing a great job of detecting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

"Right about here I was feeling real good about all the work involved in the posting and how it came out better than I could ever had hoped for."

And "Fear Not", while Larry is busy doing a great job, there are other influences too...

"It was only after I had caught up on all the thread tracks I had been on that came later that I was able to pay some attention to this one. Holly, and began to see what you were telling me and appreciate that you were sharing to my needs and requests."

153:4.1...when the Master's spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings. ... AND ...

"Rapidly reading along bobbing my head up and down."

194:2.2 (Pentecost)... The first mission of this spirit is, of course, to foster and personalize truth, for it is the comprehension of truth that constitutes the highest form of human liberty. Next, it is the purpose of this spirit to destroy the believer's feeling of orphanhood. Jesus having been among men, all believers would experience a sense of loneliness had not the Spirit of Truth come to dwell in men's hearts.

"Oh yes, Oh yes!, these things were familiar to me. Head still bobbing."

195:7.23 The scientist, not science, perceives the reality of an evolving and advancing universe of energy and matter. The artist, not art, demonstrates the existence of the transient morontia world intervening between material existence and spiritual liberty. The religionist, not religion, proves the existence of the spirit realities and divine values which are to be encountered in the progress of eternity.

"Be still my heart, For I have always loved these passages"

195:7.8 ... Without the consciousness of the concept of values within the spirit-born mind, the fact of universe materialism and the mechanistic phenomena of universe operation would be wholly unrecognized by man.

"I got all the way down to here when some thing about the Pentecost thing bothered me so I went back and looked."

194:2.2 (Pentecost)... The first mission of this spirit is, of course, to foster and personalize truth, for it is the comprehension of truth that constitutes the highest form of human liberty.

"There, that one; this sentence: Next, it is the purpose of this spirit to destroy the believer's feeling of orphanhood. Is that in the Urantia Book, I thought. Or did Holly just throw that in there."

"No!,. I cried, that is not right, The Spirit of Truth does not destroy the fact of ones orphanhood. That fact is contained within the loss of Family and Culture, and civilization and potential attainment and the administrations of countless numbers of angels and midwayers and seconophim and seraphim that help us and teach us and show us the way! Oh I was quite adamant. It’s one of my pet peeves. How can one little spirit seek to atone for the loss of so much, I cried. And then, Holly, it began to dawn on me, I was rejecting a Spiritual gift in favor of complaining about my loss, which I thought was so great. I was rejecting a part of the gift of The Spirit of Truth because I didn’t think it was sufficient compensation for our loss and hence My LOSS. Well, I was right about one thing I got plenty of ignorance, all right. Well, Thank You Holly, for your gift. The Spirit of Truth Can destroy the feeling of orphanhood"

Jesus having been among men, all believers would experience a sense of loneliness had not the Spirit of Truth come to dwell in men's hearts.

"Oh I had always believed that The Spirit of Truth dwelt within in and that I was not alone I just never let it destroy that feeling of being orphaned, I clung to it, It was mine. I gladly give it up now, how mean and petty of me to judge God’s gift that He has so freely poured out upon all men so that they would not be alone."

Holly here: And anybody who fails to recognize the real truth is not endowed by this Spirit of Truth and can not be thus guided by him, until and unless this Spirit is allowed or invited in.

Love, peace and blessings, Holly

"Thank You, Holly, for your Love and your Peace and Your Blessings and for being the instrument that opened that old wound and let it bleed ‘til it was cleansed and now can heal."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Sam... Sam writes: I will do as best I can and openly ask for the assistance and protection of the Lanonandek Order of Beings from any reprisals that this rebellious member of their Order might choose to visit on me as fear that I would not fare well alone.

Not to worry. I got your back.

"Yeah, thanks again, Larry, You were the first one to step forward, and it meant a lot to me."

Stephen T is more slippery than those eels I used to commercially catch on the Altamaha River in Georgia. But we caught about 500 pounds a week...and I don't think Stephen weighs that much. * * * * * * *

From: Bud R. 1/7/02
Msg. No: 24777, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24736


StephenT.

Steve R. writes:

Debralee, Thank you! And I want you to know that I consiider you one of the most positive and loving influences on UBRON. You have a wonderful attitude, it does not go un-noticed here, and I'm sure many, many here feel the same way. :)

Steve R.

I want to second that, Debralee. You definitely help keep the sun shining around here. Thank you, we need that.

From: DebraLee A. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24778, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24771


Several Good Reasons

Greetings Sam and All

Yes Sam, Holly is a Jewel of great Brilliance!! And Ubron is blessed by her presence here.

Peace

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24780, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24740


Several Good Reasons?

Dale,

The difference is that we can look at the Bible and know about the history, location and politico/religious times of the writings. A discerning reader can take into account these variables. We cannot know anything about the UB except what it offers within itself...there is no real perspective from which to assess and evaluate its contents except through logical deduction, and through discovery of its human sources (plagiarism). There has been no author step up and account for their writings. I have offered logical deduction and have been personally attacked for it and warned to cease under threat of censorship. Don't be so sure there are not contradictions within the UB. I have never suggested that we throw out the baby with the bathwater, on the contrary I have suggested that we discern which is the baby and which is the bathwater.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24781, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24741


Several Good Reasons

Holly,

Name-calling reflects more upon the character of the name-caller than it does the name-called.

Sticks and stones...

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24782, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24752


Personal Attacks

Holly,

This from someone who just called me a "wolf in sheep's clothing"

Stephen

From: Dale A. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24783, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates


Several Good Reasons?

Hi Stephen:

Re: " .. we can look at the Bible and know .."

[dale queries]

Firstly, which of the several thousand versions of The Bible do you

refer to? Just plug in the two words "Bible versions" in any search

engine...

Secondly, what can anyone "know" for sure, from any version of The

Bible? It always seemed to me, I had to use discernment to trim

conflicts more that I could use it as a guide.

The 'track' you seem to offer me, a reader of your posts, is that The

Bible is superior to The Urantia Book, based on criteria you select.

Re: "There has been no author step up and account for their writings."

[dale observes]

Of course not. It's an Epochal Revelation. The Fifth One, apparently.

Re: "I have offered logical deduction..."

[dale opinions]

You may believe you offer logic, but the duck you offer to me appears

to quack under the 'title' -- "opinion."

For some, a version of The Bible works just fine. It didn't for me,

and in comparison to The Urantia Book, compares as a VW Bug running on

3 cylinders does to a Formula One Race Car -- just my personal

experience.

peas,

From: Sam C. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24784, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24782


Personal Attacks

It would appear that you have been ensnared in the trap of your own duplicity, Stephen. Holly made no such statement as perceived by you.

"Holly,

This from someone who just called me a "wolf in sheep's clothing"

Stephen"

Her reference to "A wolf in sheep's clothing" was descriptive of the act of duplicity performed by one and discovered by another. You named yourself, no one called you anything. I think you owe Holly an apology. Had you been in persuit of Truth no such mistake could have accrued.

Sam

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24785, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24777


StephenT.

Bud wrote:

Steve R. writes:

Debralee, Thank you! And I want you to know that I consiider you one of the most positive and loving influences on UBRON. You have a wonderful attitude, it does not go un-noticed here, and I'm sure many, many here feel the same way. :)

Steve R.

I want to second that, Debralee. You definitely help keep the sun shining around here. Thank you, we need that.

Hi Debralee!

I triple it, absolutely, we do need your sunshiny presence here...you are like a flowing river of truth, beauty and goodness...

Keep up the good work!

Love, Holly

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24786, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24782


Personal Attacks

Dear Stephen,

I wrote:

Dear Sam...

You are doing a great job of detecting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And "Fear Not", while Larry is busy doing a great job, there are other influences too...153:4.1...when the Master's spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings. ...snip

I was referring to Caligastia...a Lanondek son who is a rebellious one, one who rejected his Father, the Paradise Father, God Himself, and one who is a fallen prince of this planet.

There is also one who is professing to be this same Caligastia, who also publicly expressed that he rejected his Thought Adjuster (and did it right here on this forum). That rejection is final and is the same as rejecting God. You know him and his writings, have posted them here and have sent them privately also.

Are you saying you are this person by thinking that I called YOU a name?

He used the same ill=logic and spiritually dis-eased logic as Lucifer did in his manifesto of false liberty. A wolf in sheep's clothing.

His logic was/is as a wolf in sheep's clothing designed to lead honest and sincere souls astray, to lead them away from God and to worship lucifer instead.

But the Spirit of Truth will not allow such nonsense to prevail in any who are normal minded, born of the Spirit, or who are minded to follow the righteous path set forth by our Creator.

Jesus said: "Any who will may come." But again, as I said to Sam, I say to you and anyone reading along, if anyone wants this guidance then they must allow the Spirit of Truth to work in their life, and sometimes they need to ask him to come in.

The Spirit of Truth is a who, a Spirit minister who leads people to Master Michael-Jesus Christ, who in turn leads people to the Father of all Creations. And Michael poured out this Spirit over all the earth over 2,000 years ago, finally and completely settling for all time the possibility of spirit posessions, or any celestial being from bothering, hurthing, or otherwise doing any kind of real harm to His children.

You too, can ask... its all up to your soul's true desire.

Peace, Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Holly,

This from someone who just called me a "wolf in sheep's clothing"

Stephen

From: Christopher B. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24787, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24785


StephenT.

The other day in Pat's post on the rules, he said the following:

"And to all new members and new cybernauts, especially, please respond privately if you have a short message of thanks or kudos for a nice post form another member. Such messages clog up cyber mailboxes and are considered bad netiquette."

I guess like it says, the *rules* are just for "new members"....I know it can be hard to keep the mutual backpatting society a private thing sometimes.....Cheers, Chris Barnaby

Bud wrote:

Steve R. writes:

Debralee, Thank you! And I want you to know that I consiider you one of the most positive and loving influences on UBRON. You have a wonderful attitude, it does not go un-noticed here, and I'm sure many, many here feel the same way. :)

Steve R.

I want to second that, Debralee. You definitely help keep the sun shining around here. Thank you, we need that.

Hi Debralee!

I triple it, absolutely, we do need your sunshiny presence here...you are like a flowing river of truth, beauty and goodness...

Keep up the good work!

Love, Holly

From: Nancy B. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24790, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24724


Several Good Reasons - Stephen

Hi Stephen -

Let's do something that I don't think has been done to date. You've pulled a few sentences out of the first paragraph on the first paper of the Urantia Book - but let's look at the whole paragraph.

It states:

"The Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You God are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself wih light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father - one God in the place of may gods - enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite upholder."

In my opinion, the Divine Counsellor presenting this Paper (who I see was assigned this first paper by the Ancient of Days of Uversa, the headquarters of the seventh super universe who supervised portions of this revelation and Caligastia's sworn enemy) was using, in that first paragraph, a high concept of HUMAN understanding to tell those reading this paper - what that highest understanding continues to be to us mortals on Urantia - one God in place of many Gods. I also notice that you continually have capitalized the P in prophet. It is NOT capitalized in the book, by the way.

I said to you previously:

"...finite minds cannot understand infinity...in order to begin to comprehend this paragraph one must begin to envision a "zero age"

To which you replied:

"Time is really irrelevent to this issue".

My Comment:

Without understanding the existential - as explained in the Forward - one will be confused, as confused as you present yourself, about the experiential. So I say time is relevent to this issue. More to the point, non-time and non-space is a vital concept because this explains God as the First Source and Center. This explains the Unqualified Absolute before FACTUAL REALITY - because factual reality did not exist.

I said previously:

"....not understanding this enigma continues to be a valid concept...since it (God as the First Source and Center) still exists in pre-space and pre-time.

To which you replied:

"This is cute...using an enigma as a proof for a proposition I am getting "tripped up". Using "enigma" and "valid concept" in the same sentence in this manner is an oxymoron."

My comment:

I used the word enigma in this way (from my dictionary): "something hard to define or understand fully". Just because we, as mortals, are not able to fully define the First Source and Center does not mean it is NOT a valid concept. It does not relegate the concept to the lowly status of oxymoron just because we fail to comprehend.

Therefore, I state again, the existential is imperative to understanding the first paragraph of the Urantia Book which addresses the experiential. As soon as He/She/It becomes experienctial and qualified - it moves into time and space. All creation is patterned after the Trinity and Paradise. God is now in the arena of time and space as creator, controller and upholder as it so states in this paragraph.

Before that there was nothing to create, control or uphold. Again, there was no factual reality to compare with.

I have written, and it's somewhere in the archives, a paper that describes how I view creation. If you take the circle of complete and utter perfection - God as Father, Son and Spirit residing in Paradise and pull it up and flip it out while still maintaining the circle of perfection as the nucleus, you have time and space and the means for creation or as the prophet in the first paragraph says - "The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain". And thus, the Trinity downsteps itself in the form of Sons and "by the Sons of God were the Universes made."

Further, perfection exists in the shadow via created beings of perfection. By shadow, I mean that time and space can only be reflective of it's source. So all creation exists as the means by which even us mere ascending Adgondonters from this lowly, little, backwards planet Urantia can obtain perfection.

Divine Counsellers and Ancients of Days, on the other hand, are created MUCH closer to perfection. So close, in fact, that they are are well-nigh perfect. The same with the Sons and Daughters of God - the very ones whereby the universes are made. They are created near perfection - yet all are endowed with free will choice. And in and through that choice they remain perfect reflections of the perfect nucleus of all Reality.

Now let's look at that son of a son - Lucifer - where we have a third generation descender of perfection potential cloaked in free will choice. He also possesses the enigma of personality - which implies free will choice AND ego manifestation. Voila - the potential for evil has been born and manifested through his rebellious ego-decisions in which he takes Caligastia Lanonodek (who fully supports him), as well as the poor, innocent mortal souls that existed at that time all the way through to this time-line, down with him.

And still the supposed Caligastia persists in twisting the truth to fulfill his nefarious plans.

Now I ask you - how are those of us who are Urantia Book readers and believers suppose to feel about a man who sympathizes with the devil? A man who posts a piece by a supposed fallen son of God against the very judges that hold his fate in their hands?

Do you not think this is somewhat transparent? Do you not see how it makes us believe that you and David Price are one in the same? And, if not, make us question why you align with his beliefs? Something you have NEVER explained.

Why do you align yourself with this blasphemous and convuluted belief system?. Why have you been reading the Urantia Book for fifteen years, Stephen? Has it taken you this long to come up with the contradiction you perceive to be flawed - and use somehow to sway others to to your "side" by attacking the first paragraph of the Urantia Book and thereby rendering the whole book as useless?

Nancy

From: tawQuin r. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24792, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
Spiritual Living


sheep in wolves clothing

wolves in sheeps clothing

.. is one to be so busy/concerned with seeing the wolf in others that one misses SEEING the sheep within?

.. Jesus was/is trying to teach one a NEW WAY to think.

.. Jesus was/is trying to help us overcome the antecedent programming from our ancestors and the preconceived ideas one has come to, about this data.

.. if we are to spiritually to evolve on this orb..it is time for a new way of thinking .. not Judas' way.

.. there are two 'ways' of thinking.

.. one is God's way.. that is being just + fair + patient + kind = mercy = applied love = unconditional loving service.

.. doing GOD's way means to....

.. seek to SEE the sheep in another

.. forgive the wolf one sees in another's behavior

.. know that wolves and wolf-like behaviors originate in fear and have mercy for that sheep inside of this wolf that is so afraid.

.. know that one recognizes the wolf in another because of one own personal data from their mind.... the experience of being a wolf them self.

.. know that within each individual there is a Lamb of God / thought adjuster.

.. have tolerance for lost sheep , wandering lambs, for one's self was once there and indeed still there at this time.. for it is a difficult path for anyone born on Urantia.

.. know that one recognizes / SEES the lamb of God in another from data in their own mind.. the TRUTH that one is a lamb of God them self... the experience of being an ascending son of God. that 'feel and taste' of infinity and infinite Love.

.. NEVER violate another's free will choice to think, say, or be whatever they choose.. LIberty without License.. every being in the universe has the divine right to love and be loved.. to worship God.. and to serve there fellow man.

.. always strive to remember that every sheep is unique and individual and will be different than one's own self... it is meant to be this way.

.. the way of the sheep is through higher mind and God manifestation.. which is Ability to Serve... Creative Expression.. and Worship.

Lucifer's way.. self-pride + entitlement = judgment = violation of another's free will. *** this WAY is has been propagated by one's ancestors and indeed by one now.

.. doing lucifer's way means..

.. an eye for an eye.

.. to seek the 'wolf' in another.. always think the worst of another, ...this way the ego feels better because surely this wolf must be worse than one's own wolf.

.. no matter how nice or kind a person is always assume there is a wolf within.

.. never forgive another and especially never forgive yourself for this will keep one's ego mired in self-pride + entitlement and one's ego likes it there.. the animals/wolf's mandate is of the lower mind and is Survival, Sensation,and Sex.. totally 5 sensory.

***********************************************************

.. know that the wolf one sees in them self and others has been caused by antecedent programming and error/choices due to preconceived ideas about such data.

.. no matter how kind.. just.. fair.. and patient Jesus was.. Judas could only see a wolf.

.. afford mercy for those who do not know any better.. and show them the way.

.. I have prayed often for mercy for Judas and others that have fallen/erred.. I have prayed often for mercy for murderers and child molesters.

.. if these individuals TRULY knew the WHOLE picture of one's Soul journey .. they would have recognized the value of being here .. and the meaning of being here would have been manifested in the realm of things... by doing God's will... which creates one's soul and the Supreme Being.

.. knowing what I do about Urantia via the UB I can afford mercy for anyone ever born on this backwards 'way of thinking', retarded orb.

.. but the last shall be first.. and the contrast of evil to good that has been afforded one here on Urantia is indeed a gift.

.. for if one can have ~ faith ~ under these conditions .. one is truly an agondonter 'striving' to DO God's way.

.. yep striving.. striving.. striving to overcome antecedent programming and preconceived ideas to find greater and greater Truth.

.. this Truth that is and of the The Spirit of Truth.. Jesus in your soul.. this truth that leads us to higher and higher God-consciousness... and manifestation of the religion OF Joshua Ben Joseph.

.. we are the one's we are waiting for.

.. Jesus will be and is back on Urantia in one's thoughts,words and deeds.. of unconditional love and service of one's fellow man when we SEE with Spirit EYES.. when we 'look' at our brother and sister..

your sister .. still striving.. striving ...striving... ,

a :-) 4u

************************

... may your path be of Light .. may your heart feel the fire ... may your mind be free from fear .. may you SEE with Spirit Eyes .. and... may you reveal who you really are.

tawquin raamany

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24793, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24783


Several Good Reasons?

Dale,

Betcha a buck you won't find even ONE of those thousands of translations which says "by the sons of God were the universes made".

Stephen

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24794, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials


Caligastia's Message - Stephen

Hi Stephen and All reading along:

By simple reasoning of the named author at the end of the message Stephen shared and posted below, then the whole thing is totally negated by the simple use and declaration of the name. If the Urantia Book is not real, but evil, then the name Caligastia would not be known. Therefore the author of the message is false...unreal.

The Urantia Book is not written by God and neither is the Bible.

Look to the wisdom of the Spirit of Truth and Master Michael who are real and living, and not to some purported celestial (a human mortal) who claims to have rejected his Father Fragment - God himself - !

The action of the Spirit in you, a born-again or Spirit born individual's gift, plus the action of the Father Fragment, Mother Spirit, the angels, and plus the magnificent work of the Sons and Daughters of God who've offered real substance to expose this farcical message, should allay any and all question of the falsity and absurdity of the ill-logic in this purported celestial's writ (which is made by a human mortal man). In simple terms for the newbies: The Holy Spirit witnesses truth to your heart.

It is my opinion that Nancy Brown sums it up nicely...as to why Caligastia would buck the authority of the Ancients of Days. See her posts.

In addition, it occurs to me that this person purporting to be Caligastia is a very ill person, who is becoming less and less real with every decision of continuing rebellion against those whom the Father has assigned certain authority.

And if perchance this person-human-mortal is actually Cal as a result of Caligastia's betrayal, then what may have happened is that his energy was slowed down to the point of becoming mortal just as Adam and Eve had become mortal after their default (which is nothing compared to Cal's betrayal).

Adam and Eve did not reject the proffered mercies of the Father and accepted their Thought Adjusters, ascended and are doing well. Cal is not likely to have such a good outcome with his continued rebellious attitude toward the Father's appointed Ancients of Days. But, his eternal fate is nobody's to judge...it is just between this person and them.

And if perchance this person-human-mortal is just a man who has fallen to some fantasical delusion, then he is still not to be trusted because he claims to have rejected the Father Fragment, a decision which is final and irreversible. Further, he has taken the name of a fallen prince and used it as if he is this fallen prince.

Either way, I fully reject the messages from this person.

Below are a few quotes on the rebellion, and I am sure that no quotes are really needed for the Spirit born souls reading along...no matter what background or walk of life, the truth will ring loud and clear in each and every honest soul.

Much love, peace and blessings...Fear not, have faith... in the real Living God...

Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

53:1.4 Very little was heard of Lucifer on Urantia owing to the fact that he assigned his first lieutenant, Satan, to advocate his cause on your planet. Satan was a member of the same primary group of Lanonandeks but had never functioned as a System Sovereign; he entered fully into the Lucifer insurrection. The "devil" is none other than Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks. At the time Michael was on Urantia in the flesh, Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia were leagued together to effect the miscarriage of his bestowal mission. But they signally failed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

183:0.4 Though Jesus knew that the plan for his death had its origin in the councils of the rulers of the Jews, he was also aware that all such nefarious schemes had the full approval of Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia. And he well knew that these rebels of the realms would also be pleased to see all of the apostles destroyed with him.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Immanuel said to Michael just before his bestowal on Urantia:

120:2.3 "3. When you have succeeded in terminating the Urantia secession, as you undoubtedly will, I counsel you to accept from Gabriel the conference of the title of `Planetary Prince of Urantia' as the eternal recognition by your universe of your final bestowal experience; and that you further do any and all things, consistent with the purport of your bestowal, to atone for the sorrow and confusion brought upon Urantia by the Caligastia betrayal and the subsequent Adamic default.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Stephen posted the following from a Purported Celestial:

Hi all,

I thought I would pass on a post I found on ESG that I think you may find interesting. I have been given permission to use it from the author. In my opinion, I think it brings up issues that the UBRON community should not simply ignore, but rather take seriously.

Stephen

The post is as follows:

Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book. 2. The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God. 3. The Bible contradicts the UB and defines it as being in service to the Most High Evil in the universe, the Ancient of Days. 1. There is no need to address point one. This much is obvious. 2. Consider this. Father established HIS template and HIS methodology in how he delivers his Revelations. He sends the Son IN THE FLESH and in your face. The Son's ability to perform miracles is Father's Imprimatur to the Son's mission. Furthermore, the Son Himself anoints teachers and He empowers them to perform miracles. THIS is the Son's Imprimatur! This is Father's methodology. Now, does the Urantia Book fit these criteria? You can 'choose' to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father's methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book? Are its unidentifiable authors really looking out for your best interests? Where is The Son and why hasn't he spoken up for this purportedly 'holy' work? The answer is coded in the Bible and I'm going to share the discovery with you. 3. The Ancient of Days The Book of Daniel gives voice to the existence of a character who has a highly elevated opinion of himself, the Ancient of Days. He calls himself 'The Most High'. Those dedicated to the service of The Son would consider Jesus to be the Most High. There can be only one. DAN 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. The Ancient of Days declares 'his kingdom'. DAN 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. (referencing the Ancient of Days) The Son of God declares 'His kingdom'. REV 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; (referencing Jesus) These verses are in direct and deliberate conflict. If we draw the numbers into a mathematical equation we arrive at this: AOD = (1000 x 1000's) + (10,000 x 10,000) SON = (10,000 x 10,000) + (1,000 x 1000's) We can see that if were to complete the equation, we'd arrive at the same number. The only difference, and it is a big difference, is that the numbers are REVERSED. This is what it means: If we do the multiplication and addition, we will arrive at the same number. This represents the 'kingdom'. The Ancient of Days lays claim to the very domain that The Son of God states is His. This is the defining boundary of the war in heaven, at attempt by a functionary to usurp the throne of God. The messaging of the reversal is clear. The AOD is opposite the Son. The AOD is against The Son. The AOD is anti The Son The AOD is ANTI-CHRIST (The Most High Anti-Christ) Were this the only exemplar of a reversal one might consider it anomalous. It is not. To date, the prophecies of the Apostle John have been 100% correct. We know who John was. We know he stood in service to The Christ. We know that Jesus so trusted him as to place the welfare of his mother into his hands. Yet NO ONE will tell you who wrote the Urantia Book. Like any good con job, the con artist gives you a plethora of reasons why this or that can't be including the fact that they consider you 'lowly mortals' to be morons. The Son of God didn't have a problem - HE TOLD US! He didn't hide. Can you establish the loyalty to the Son of God by those who are purported to write the Urantia Book? No! The loyalty of the Apostle John is without question. The Urantia Book has one purpose and one purpose only. This is to delude you away from your ascendancy. If you want the truth, you need only look to the words of The Son. What He said and the exemplars of His life, are ENOUGH! Defiance to Evil is Service to God. I whole-heartedly suggest you abandon this fifty-year- old delusion and return to the two thousand year old source the one that began with The Son of God Himself. I've made my stand - how about you? You are welcome to discuss these matters at http://www.ubook.org Has it been a while since you posted on Ubron? Did you find it difficult or uncomfortable to share your views without some cut and paste overlord looking down on you telling how stupid you must be? Don't you think its time for a change? Caligastia Lanonandek

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24795, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24786


Personal Attacks

Holly,

---You are doing a great job of detecting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And "Fear Not", while Larry is busy doing a great job, there are other influences too...153:4.1...when the Master's spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings. ...snip

I was referring to Caligastia...a Lanondek son who is a rebellious one, one who rejected his Father, the Paradise Father, God Himself, and one who is a fallen prince of this planet.

There is also one who is professing to be this same Caligastia, who also publicly expressed that he rejected his Thought Adjuster (and did it right here on this forum). That rejection is final and is the same as rejecting God. You know him and his writings, have posted them here and have sent them privately also.---

ST: Name-calling is name-calling. Your assumptions based solely upon BELIEF in the UB.

---Are you saying you are this person by thinking that I called YOU a name?

He used the same ill=logic and spiritually dis-eased logic as Lucifer did in his manifesto of false liberty. A wolf in sheep's clothing. ---

ST: Show me this manifesto so I can read it.

---His logic was/is as a wolf in sheep's clothing designed to lead honest and sincere souls astray, to lead them away from God and to worship lucifer instead. ---

ST: Quote where he or I have declared as much.

---But the Spirit of Truth will not allow such nonsense to prevail in any who are normal minded, born of the Spirit, or who are minded to follow the righteous path set forth by our Creator.

Jesus said: "Any who will may come." But again, as I said to Sam, I say to you and anyone reading along, if anyone wants this guidance then they must allow the Spirit of Truth to work in their life, and sometimes they need to ask him to come in.

The Spirit of Truth is a who, a Spirit minister who leads people to Master Michael-Jesus Christ, who in turn leads people to the Father of all Creations. And Michael poured out this Spirit over all the earth over 2,000 years ago, finally and completely settling for all time the possibility of spirit posessions, or any celestial being from bothering, hurthing, or otherwise doing any kind of real harm to His children.

You too, can ask... its all up to your soul's true desire. ---

ST: According to who...you, Bill Sadler, or Wilfred Kellogg?

Stephen

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24797, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24795


Personal Attacks

Stephen,

You're doing it again.

Ask HIM yourself for the truth.

Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Holly,

---You are doing a great job of detecting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And "Fear Not", while Larry is busy doing a great job, there are other influences too...153:4.1...when the Master's spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings. ...snip

I was referring to Caligastia...a Lanondek son who is a rebellious one, one who rejected his Father, the Paradise Father, God Himself, and one who is a fallen prince of this planet.

There is also one who is professing to be this same Caligastia, who also publicly expressed that he rejected his Thought Adjuster (and did it right here on this forum). That rejection is final and is the same as rejecting God. You know him and his writings, have posted them here and have sent them privately also.---

ST: Name-calling is name-calling. Your assumptions based solely upon BELIEF in the UB.

---Are you saying you are this person by thinking that I called YOU a name?

He used the same ill=logic and spiritually dis-eased logic as Lucifer did in his manifesto of false liberty. A wolf in sheep's clothing. ---

ST: Show me this manifesto so I can read it.

---His logic was/is as a wolf in sheep's clothing designed to lead honest and sincere souls astray, to lead them away from God and to worship lucifer instead. ---

ST: Quote where he or I have declared as much.

---But the Spirit of Truth will not allow such nonsense to prevail in any who are normal minded, born of the Spirit, or who are minded to follow the righteous path set forth by our Creator.

Jesus said: "Any who will may come." But again, as I said to Sam, I say to you and anyone reading along, if anyone wants this guidance then they must allow the Spirit of Truth to work in their life, and sometimes they need to ask him to come in.

The Spirit of Truth is a who, a Spirit minister who leads people to Master Michael-Jesus Christ, who in turn leads people to the Father of all Creations. And Michael poured out this Spirit over all the earth over 2,000 years ago, finally and completely settling for all time the possibility of spirit posessions, or any celestial being from bothering, hurthing, or otherwise doing any kind of real harm to His children.

You too, can ask... its all up to your soul's true desire. ---

ST: According to who...you, Bill Sadler, or Wilfred Kellogg?

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24798, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24784


Personal Attacks

Sam,

She replied to me that she was actually calling Caligastia by this name. That was my bad. But nevertheless she sites the rules of conduct here right after an act of name-calling...the hypocracy remains for all to see.

Stephen

From: DebraLee A. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24801, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24792


sheep in wolves clothing

Hello TawQuin and All,

I'm not in as touch with my Father within as I perceive that many here are. Understand, that I KNOW He is here, I really do see it as that some are farther along on the path than others, the natural order of things.

Surely, surely, this forgiving youself is THE HARDEST THING there is to rise above here on Urth. I can forgive others easily, but I keep getting pulled back into feelings of worthlessness. I am however fighting this fight to overcome the error we all grew up in, as we all must.

I read something, somewhere recently, about balance. This is what I seek. In those times when I do value myself highly, I'm immeadiately plunged into guilt for having too much pride! "Such a life on such a planet!"

I thank God that I'm one of the ones that looks around at life and thinks, this is good. I do know that "All things work together for good.

Peace

From: Dale A. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24804, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates


Several Good Reasons?

Hi Stephen:

Well, what would that PROVE?

Seems to me, a slippery digression!

Betcha a buck you won't find even ONE of those thousands of

translations which says "by the sons of God were the universes made".

Stephen

From: Rain l. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24806, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24794


Caligastia's Message - Stephen

While most of your postings blow me away they are so sage and insightful on the issue of Caligastia's fate I most humbly disagree. From the flaming throne of Glory there are heard from deep within, our Fathers cries of grief and despair for his lost Sons, who he is waiting for as they take thier selfish sweet stubborn time to come to thier senses and return to Him. We must hold on tight to our gleaming shield of faith and know how its light not only illuminates the way of our Lord, but also shines brightly enough for us to forge into the darkness and help find our lost brothers and help them home. We wouldn't be very good sisters to our brothers if we didn't help them out when they loose thier heads. Cal and Dal have right up until the time they loose consciousness, and are thereby unable to make the decision to get thier heads screwed back on and return to Father to decide. Father will be overwhelmed with joy when they get by his side and sit on the thrones of glorious light that he has waiting for them. But the sooner this fiasco ends the better. I pray that this battle ends immediately if not sooner, and that our found brothers are escorted to His court of Glory. Dont give up on him Holly, on them. They are beautiful, just confused, so confused that they do not even know who thier Father is nor do they recognize his Son. Remember, it is Gods will that all his sons, high and low, survive. God grieves and yearns for his lost Sons. It is imperative that they get home at once. At the end of the day I believe that God has a great party planned to celebrate such a Happy ending to a rather nightmarish story. Again, Holly, other than on this issue you are a bright light and so right on!

From: Rayvingbull 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24807, Sent by Email: No Topic:
General


Stephen Thorburn

Hi Stephen;

I thought of you this morning when I read this. I thought I would pass it on to you.

118:6.2...... To advocate the omnificence of primal Deity would be equal to disenfranchising well-nigh a million Creator Sons of Paradise, not to mention the innumerable hosts of various other orders of concurring creative assistants. There is but one uncaused Cause in the whole universe. All other causes are derivatives of this one First Great Source and Center. ( End of UB text )

Ray

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24808, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24787


StephenT.

Hi Chris!

ROTFL. So it is, that is, its hard to remember to keep them private in accordance with some folks view of 'netiquette' which abounds on some lists... but personally, I'd rather be reading these positive posts than some of the other sundry truth contending types or the ones claiming petty grievances which could go private too...that's because at least kudos come closer to something positive rather than negative, so, as I have said many times, we're not realizing the ideal, but we sure can try to strive toward it...later, when there is more time, I may address this principle on Self governance, but maybe not... I haven't made up my mind yet. ROTFL.

Blessings, peace and love, Holly

Chris wrote:

The other day in Pat's post on the rules, he said the following:

"And to all new members and new cybernauts, especially, please respond privately if you have a short message of thanks or kudos for a nice post form another member. Such messages clog up cyber mailboxes and are considered bad netiquette."

I guess like it says, the *rules* are just for "new members"....I know it can be hard to keep the mutual backpatting society a private thing sometimes.....Cheers, Chris Barnaby

Bud wrote:

Steve R. writes:

Debralee, Thank you! And I want you to know that I consiider you one of the most positive and loving influences on UBRON. You have a wonderful attitude, it does not go un-noticed here, and I'm sure many, many here feel the same way. :)

Steve R.

I want to second that, Debralee. You definitely help keep the sun shining around here. Thank you, we need that.

Hi Debralee!

I triple it, absolutely, we do need your sunshiny presence here...you are like a flowing river of truth, beauty and goodness...

Keep up the good work!

Love, Holly

From: Nancy B. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24810, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24793


Several Good Reasons?

Dale and Stephen:

Has it occured to either one of you that this quote wasn't from the bible?

Has it occured to you or anyone else that every major religion has it's prophets and that the quote you are so hung up on may have come from another holy book besides the Christian bible?

You both know there are other books containing truth, now don't you? Try looking at another source, Stephen, if you're so determined to find or not find this quote.

Nancy

Stephen wrote (referring to the bible):

Dale,

Betcha a buck you won't find even ONE of those thousands of translations which says "by the sons of God were the universes made".

Stephen

From: Carol F. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24822, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24810


Several Good Reasons?

P.17 Successive planetary revelations of divine truth invariably embrace the highest existing concepts of spiritual values as a part of the new and enhanced co-ordination of planetary knowledge. Accordingly, in making these presentations about God and his universe associates, we have selected as the basis of these papers more than one thousand human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings. Wherein these human concepts, assembled from the God- knowing mortals of the past and the present, are inadequate to portray the truth as we are directed to reveal it, we will unhesitatingly supplement them, for this purpose drawing upon our own superior knowledge of the reality and divinity of the Paradise Deities and their transcendent residential universe.

We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience--God-consciousness.

From: Steffani M. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24837, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24693


Several Good Reasons

Well Stephen,

After giving the issues raised as much of a thorough going over as possible with Bob...all that he has conclusively "proven" is that he has a major attitude problem and an incredible ability to misconstrue what is said to him...and it appears that you have picked up this habit of being irrational and inconsistent...and believing the dots are connecting in a sequential progression. Ultimately his "proofs" boil down to little more "because I said so and I know more than you do" ...a sorry substitute for real logical thinking...which is inadequate for understanding the most elementary spiritual principles anyway.

Only Love,

Steffani

Nancy,

We are still left with the issues he raised.

Stephen

From: Steffani M. 1/8/02
Msg. No: 24838, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24696


Several Good Reasons

Sam...As Michael enjoins us mortals..."Fear not" and "Be of Good Cheer".

Whatever Bob may or may not be in the past or future...today he is very human. He likes to portray me as a vile character out of the 'book of revelation'.

All I am is a fellow mortal who has had 'out of this world' personal religious experiences.

If you really piss him off by not agreeing with him he sends letters to your acquaintences informing them of your evil personage status and alleged affiliation with the Ancient of Days.

I trust the Powers that Be can deal with these sorts of problems...try not to worry. But if you are looking for any good reasons to give up reading the UB in his posts...it is highly unlikely that you will find any.

Only Love,

Steffani

Several Good Reasons

Oh boy, I should probably have my head examined for attempting to refute the arguments of a Lanonandek Son. I am only a mortal creature of the realm and fall far short of the inherent brilliance and capabilities of one of such a high order. I will do as best I can and openly ask for the assistance and protection of the Lanonandek Order of Beings from any reprisals that this rebellious member of their Order might choose to visit on me as fear that I would not fare well alone.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: Several Good Reasons Why You Should Cease Your Support of the Urantia Book and Ubron: 1. Neither you, nor anyone else can prove the authorship of Urantia Book.

SAM REPLIES: The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: The Urantia Book is not and cannot be a revelation from God.

SAM REPLIES: Many things have been revealed to me from the Urantia Book. Things that exist in the universe at large. This is the nature of revelation. Caligastia has revealed nothing other than his own malfeasance in office and failure to perform the duties which he had agreed on before he was granted permission to minister to our primitive forefathers. If Caligastia was in disagreement with the established methods and administrative techniques of the Universe and wished to do things differently it was not necessary for him to isolate us from the rest of universe so that he could prosecute his plans secretly and privately on the innocent beings who live here. He should have taken up his concerns or issues with his equals or with the millions of other beings of a high order who participate in this already established method of administration.

CALIGASTIA SAYS: You can ‘choose’ to believe anything you wish, however, the REALITY is that the Urantia Book does not conform to Father’s methodology in the deliverance of revelations. So, what is the purpose of the Urantia Book?

SAM REPLIES: Don’t you just love people who try to grant you what is already yours?, "like your ability to choose?" Talk about "not conforming to methodology"! This is a hell of an indictment to make coming from someone who abdicated on their sworn duty to uphold that very methodology in a position of high trust and great responsibility for the care and teaching of almost completely helpless and primitive beings. And The Urantia Book would hardly have been necessary were it not for Caligastia default to begin with. I might add that The Urantia Book as a revelation was only granted upon the LEGITIMATE petition of those responsible to clean up the mess that Caligastia had made. A process that Caligastia impunitively chose to ignore even though it was open to him. There is nothing about Caligastia’s complaints that could not have been addressed without causing the isolation of millions of innocent beings in the process.

MY DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS: I should know better than to attempt to argue with or dispute the declarations of one who by birth is thousands of times more brilliant and capable than I. I know we have been told in The Urantia Book that wars in heaven are fought with words and that the arguments put forth by the rebellious persons who have put us in this isolated position are sophisticated and have even fooled angels and numbers of other orders of beings. So I will not try to address each and every statement made by this person who claims to be "Caligastia of the Lanonandek Order". I have my doubts about that but I also fear that he might be who he says he is and what that might mean for me personally. If he is, then why is he trying to convince us of anything anyway. If any of what he is saying has any value or use or truth in it then why not take it up with his equals or secure validation and backing from the multitude of higher orders of beings that are in a position to assess his claims in the light of experience and attainment. His shameful attempt to continue his perfidy by appealing to and challenging the reason and good sense of mere mortals who already suffer the consequences of his actions has got to be a new low. I openly and humbly ask any of the Honorable Order of Lanonandek Sons to please deliver us from the actions of this their wayward member. We are only mortal and should not be required to battle our betters.

Fraternally Offered,

Samuel C.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24846, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24799


Personal Attacks

Holly,

Well, you sure avoided answering any of my questions, and to top it off, said you no longer wish to talk to me unless I believe as you do. How nice. Now everybody pat Holly on the back for doing such a good job.

Stephen

---

Dear Stephen,

I'm not into playing word games, and making huge debates. So this is the last I will write to you.

The truth is within you to discover and then to know, just as it is in all of us to discover and then to know as we travel along on our pathways through life. Follow the still small voice within.

Throw away your books, your human authorities, and any other perceived authorities, shut out the noise of banter and debate, stand up and believe in your own integrity, your own spirit and soul, and listen to the living God within.

You are able to decide by the living way.

The truth is within you.

Peace and blessings await you and all who will...,

Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---You are doing a great job of detecting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And "Fear Not", while Larry is busy doing a great job, there are other influences too...153:4.1...when the Master's spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings. ...snip

I was referring to Caligastia...a Lanondek son who is a rebellious one, one who rejected his Father, the Paradise Father, God Himself, and one who is a fallen prince of this planet.

There is also one who is professing to be this same Caligastia, who also publicly expressed that he rejected his Thought Adjuster (and did it right here on this forum). That rejection is final and is the same as rejecting God. You know him and his writings, have posted them here and have sent them privately also.---

ST: Name-calling is name-calling. Your assumptions based solely upon BELIEF in the UB.

---Are you saying you are this person by thinking that I called YOU a name?

He used the same ill=logic and spiritually dis-eased logic as Lucifer did in his manifesto of false liberty. A wolf in sheep's clothing. ---

ST: Show me this manifesto so I can read it.

---His logic was/is as a wolf in sheep's clothing designed to lead honest and sincere souls astray, to lead them away from God and to worship lucifer instead. ---

ST: Quote where he or I have declared as much.

---But the Spirit of Truth will not allow such nonsense to prevail in any who are normal minded, born of the Spirit, or who are minded to follow the righteous path set forth by our Creator.

Jesus said: "Any who will may come." But again, as I said to Sam, I say to you and anyone reading along, if anyone wants this guidance then they must allow the Spirit of Truth to work in their life, and sometimes they need to ask him to come in.

The Spirit of Truth is a who, a Spirit minister who leads people to Master Michael-Jesus Christ, who in turn leads people to the Father of all Creations. And Michael poured out this Spirit over all the earth over 2,000 years ago, finally and completely settling for all time the possibility of spirit posessions, or any celestial being from bothering, hurthing, or otherwise doing any kind of real harm to His children.

You too, can ask... its all up to your soul's true desire. ---

ST: According to who...you, Bill Sadler, or Wilfred Kellogg?

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24847, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24804


Several Good Reasons?

Dale,

It would prove one of my points.

Stephen

---

Hi Stephen:

Well, what would that PROVE?

Seems to me, a slippery digression!

Betcha a buck you won't find even ONE of those thousands of translations which says "by the sons of God were the universes made".

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24848, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24807


Stephen Thorburn

Ray,

I did no such thing...we have free will.

Stephen

---

Hi Stephen;

I thought of you this morning when I read this. I thought I would pass it on to you.

118:6.2...... To advocate the omnificence of primal Deity would be equal to disenfranchising well-nigh a million Creator Sons of Paradise, not to mention the innumerable hosts of various other orders of concurring creative assistants. There is but one uncaused Cause in the whole universe. All other causes are derivatives of this one First Great Source and Center. ( End of UB text )

Ray

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24849, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24810


Several Good Reasons?

Nancy,

Dwayne Faw has done a very thorough job with regard to the Bible and it comes up empty with regard to that part of the quote...the rsto of the quote seems to have several references, but none of them have the portion in queston in any of the translations I have searched...if you have any suggestion where I could find it, or if you would care to help in the search, it would be appreciated, but as it stands the quote simply does not exist.

Stephen

---

Dale and Stephen:

Has it occured to either one of you that this quote wasn't from the bible?

Has it occured to you or anyone else that every major religion has it's prophets and that the quote you are so hung up on may have come from another holy book besides the Christian bible?

You both know there are other books containing truth, now don't you? Try looking at another source, Stephen, if you're so determined to find or not find this quote.

Nancy

Stephen wrote (referring to the bible):

Dale,

Betcha a buck you won't find even ONE of those thousands of translations which says "by the sons of God were the universes made".

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24850, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24822


Several Good Reasons?

Carol,

This is a clear addmittance to plagiarism and taking licence with the quote I have pointed out.

You have made my case.

Stephen

---

P.17 Successive planetary revelations of divine truth invariably embrace the highest existing concepts of spiritual values as a part of the new and enhanced co-ordination of planetary knowledge. Accordingly, in making these presentations about God and his universe associates, we have selected as the basis of these papers more than one thousand human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings. Wherein these human concepts, assembled from the God- knowing mortals of the past and the present, are inadequate to portray the truth as we are directed to reveal it, we will unhesitatingly supplement them, for this purpose drawing upon our own superior knowledge of the reality and divinity of the Paradise Deities and their transcendent residential universe.

We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience--God-consciousness.

From: Rick C. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24854, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24826


Prison World

Hi Edmund Leo Joyce,

Thank you for your comments on the topis and please accept my reply also.

You stated: Regarding the discussion as to whether Urantia is a prison world, or whether its inhabitants are wards,I think Caligastia remains on our planet, because Urantia is still a world within Lucifer’s unsuccessful attempt to build a parallel universeWithin Michael’s local universe.

My comments: This is a new concept to me, although I am aware that he did try to side step the plan of ascension with his own.

Remnants of this rebellious challenge remain due to the efforts of Caligastia and the hierarchy of Luciferians both human and superhuman.

The existence, purpose, and goals,Of Lucifer’s universe are documented in the books of Madam Blavatsky and Alice BaileyPublished by Lucis Trust (Which was originally incorporated as Lucifer’s Trust).

Lucifer and his assistants introduced methods such as reincarnation to keep their worlds populated and insulated. Karma (cause and effect) is the social discipline. Monads replace Thought Adjusters.Adam and Eve are myth.

My comment: Yes this is a new concept to me, and very well could be the origins of the belief of reincarnation.

I feel the Urantia Book was delivered to humans in 1934 in response to the Blavatsky – Bailey books which contain persuasive material stolen by Lucifer who is advertised as the divine rebel,Prometheus.

With our free will,We humans make the decision To remain in "hell" or to escape to the mansion worldsWith agondonter status.

My comments: A few years ago a person I hold as wise once said, we are in hell, and she meant it. I supose this is relative to one's existance here, because none are bound to live in a low state of spirituality.

Although these things may be so, I can't imagin a more diversified place, for the attainment of spiritual growth and experience.

Being born into this world, does in no way affect our destiny, but does offer diversity. I supose we don't miss what we do not know, speaking of course, of better worlds.

Edmund, can you imagin a more diverse place for spiritual growth and experience?

You know Edmund, even if this is a prison world, and the proverbial hell for some, I don't feel slighted by it. I personally see nothing between me and my experiences, spiritual growth, ascension, and destiny.

I see the future as a wide open door for all who will take that step of faith into their destinies.

Once again thank you for taking the time to reply.

o2b1

From: Larry G. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24860, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24858


Prison World

Dear Stephen...

Since when does a prosecutor have to present documents for the defense. Does not your Calagastia have the manifesto tucked away somewhere that you could easily peruse and use to defend him?

Bring it out and defend away my friend.

Stephen writes: Th UB tells only one side of the case...WHERE IS THE MANIFESTO? WHY IS IT NOT PRESENTED INTO EVIDENCE? Could you jury a trial with only the prosecutor's arguments? The bias wreaks of deceit.

* * * * * * *

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24861, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24860


Prison World

Larry,

The prosecutor (UB) has based much of its case on this allegation, but does not produce it into evidence. Hearsay with the intent to deceive the jury (you) if you ask me. I object!

Stephen

From: Larry G. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24862, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24860


Prison World

Incidentally, Stephen...

your use of the word 'wreaks' reeks of not only a bias leading to deceit but loses its flavorable punch through a gross misspelling.

* * * * * * *

From: Rick C. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24863, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24858


Prison World

Stephen Thorburn,

Your words give you away. The Lucifer manifesto is on page 603 of the u-book. How could you have read the book and not know this?

Allow me to speak of myself now. It became apparent to me, as a young man, that if I wanted to know truth, I would have to look at myself, and examine myself, for untruthfullness, before I could ever hope to recognize truth when it was before me.

o2b1

From: Larry G. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24865, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24861


Prison World

Stephen...

First off I'm not the jury. I'm the assistant D.A.

And the Urantia Papers do present the salient points of the Lucifer manifesto.

The below lists the charges stemming from Lucifer's manifesto. There's more but I've kept it short, but would be happy to present it all...but then you say you've read the book so why waste bandwidth.

I will ask you more pointedly: Do you have access to the manifesto as a defender of Caligastia who tied his tail to Lucifer in his declaration of false liberty? If not why not just ask Califastia for it?

From the Urantia Book:

THE LUCIFER MANIFESTO 53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads: 53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father's name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father's actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel's proposals. 53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son -- Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler. 53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days -- "foreign potentates" -- to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights. 53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days. 53:3.6 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical an

From: Larry G. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24869, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24850


Several Good Reasons?

Dear Stephen...

The only case that has been made is that you have but a faint grasp of the word plagiarize, which means to steal ideas as if they are your own.

The below passage freely admits these ideas are not those of the revelators.

Stephen wrote: This is a clear addmittance to plagiarism and taking licence with the quote I have pointed out. You have made my case.

P.17 Successive planetary revelations of divine truth invariably embrace the highest existing concepts of spiritual values as a part of the new and enhanced co-ordination of planetary knowledge. Accordingly, in making these presentations about God and his universe associates, we have selected as the basis of these papers more than one thousand human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings. Wherein these human concepts, assembled from the God- knowing mortals of the past and the present, are inadequate to portray the truth as we are directed to reveal it, we will unhesitatingly supplement them, for this purpose drawing upon our own superior knowledge of the reality and divinity of the Paradise Deities and their transcendent residential universe.

* * * * * * *

From: Peter H. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24870, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24861


Prison World

Hi Stephen!

YOU SAY: The prosecutor (UB). . .

MY COMMENT: The URANTIA Book is more of a biased reporter than a prosecutor! But really no more biased than any reporter concerning a matter which has already been legally adjuged. It is only the final disposition of the case which remains in question.

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Steve R. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24871, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24846


Personal Attacks

Holly, Well, you sure avoided answering any of my questions, and to top it off, said you no longer wish to talk to me unless I believe as you do. How nice. Now everybody pat Holly on the back for doing such a good job. Stephen ***************************************************** This situation reminds me of the moment of Sergie! I say "moment" because we all know what happened there. Sergie's motives were very transparent to me, as are Stephen's. The more it is indulged, the longer the moment will last. Just as I predicted in Sergie's case I predict that there is no possibility of Stephen realizing what is being conveyed by others, the only question is how long it will go on. The tide turns more and more, feel it? Take note Stephen, if you don't harmonize, you are just passing through, and like Sergie, you will leave little or no legacy.

From: John B. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24876, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24865


Prison World

Larry and Rick,

In Stephen's defense, the UB does not give the whole Lucifer Manifesto, but rather paraphrases it by stating "salient points." In the portion provided by Larry, there is but one quotation -- Lucifer calling the AOD's "foreign potentates."

Since Lucifer most certainly did not write out the Manifesto in English, we are dependent upon those who know what the Manifesto was all about to tell us what was stated in it. However, it appears that what was given to us was the Universal interpretation of the Lucifer Manifesto rather than the Manifesto, itself.

It is not incumbent upon the Universal personalities to make Lucifer's case for Lucifer, but it would have been nice if we could have gotten a more detailed and comprehensive version of the Manifesto.

John

From: Carol F. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24883, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24858


Prison World

Hi Stephen, you write: "Th UB tells only one side of the case...WHERE IS THE MANIFESTO? WHY IS IT NOT PRESENTED INTO EVIDENCE?"

Are you suggesting that the revelators should have plagiarized the Manifesto?

From: Peter H. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24885, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24876


Prison World

Hi John!

My guess is that they didn't want to corrupt us by "advertizing evil" in presenting the whole manifesto (would you give a five-year-old kid a Hitler Youth version of Mien Kampf? I think that earthlings (it is too bad that some religionists have ruined the new name for the people of our planet by coopting the word to apply to themselves) might be VERY easily led astray by Lucifer's real sophisms. I mean, here we have people actually defending him!

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Rain l. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24887, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24885


Prison World

Hi Peter,

What you don't seem to remember is that God blots out our sins for his sake as well as ours and forgets them in eternity. He forgives and forgets, except the good stuff. Ascending sons, especially faith sons and daughters, have to strive toward rather than desend from perfection. Highly original personality types, human or above, are bound to loose sight of the purpose of this striving, if not channeling energy in the right direction. It happens sometimes, that does not mean that any deviations in the Plan cannot be rectified, glorified even, with God all things are possible.

Love, Rain

From: Peter H. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24888, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24887


Prison World

Hi Sept!

Yes, I agree. But I don't see how what you say (below) applies to Newagers. I mean 99.9% of us all have some of it right and some of it wrong. We do, they do -- all of our mortal and morontia progress consists of getting rid of wrong ideas about God and spirit. What is your point?

Sincerely,

Peter

Sept. Rain Wrote:

What you don't seem to remember is that God blots out our sins for his sake as well as ours and forgets them in eternity. He forgives and forgets, except the good stuff. Ascending sons, especially faith sons and daughters, have to strive toward rather than desend from perfection. Highly original personality types, human or above, are bound to loose sight of the purpose of this striving, if not channeling energy in the right direction. It happens sometimes, that does not mean that any deviations in the Plan cannot be rectified, glorified even, with God all things are possible.

Love, Rain

From: Rain l. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24889, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24887


Prison World

I mean that the sophistries and the falacious arguments in support of the self have been around for ages. There are only two choices, either God is our master in which case we serve Him and all his children with acts of love, or the self is in charge. When the self is the motivator all sorts of shoddy arguments are made to substantiate leading lots of sheep, unreflective mortals, astray. Ugly schemes of selfserving exploitation for the sake of self glory. They never work out in the end. The defense in favor of any living soul is that at any time they can change their mind and head home, you know, toward Paradise. So while the sin is indefensable, the sinner deserves to be liberated, not to execute more nefarious plans to screw up the divine scene, but to prove that once recognision of ones divine heritage is made and the soul is heading in the right direction, well, the sky is the limit!

From: Larry G. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24891, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24876


Prison World

I agree John...

that it would have been not only nice, but because of its far-flung ramifications, almost imperative that the manifesto of Lucifer be presented verbatim (translated of course).

While I understand the salient points of his bid for power, I don't get the flavor of his brilliance which so swayed and reverberated throughout the heavens.

Why were so many entities willing to give over their personal ability to make choices? What were the short-cuts he offered?

How did he make false liberty so attractive?

I would love to have been at the first hearing which the papers say occured about 50 years or so ago. And if I ever learn the language will also read Gabriel's responses. I know there are some on this forum that think the trial's already been adjudicated, but I don't even think it's begun. My God, just getting all the witnessses together would take forever.

And can you imagine being able to get records of the trial as it's happening?

Being cut-off really sucks sometimes.

* * * * * * *

From: Steve R. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24896, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24894

 

Hi Brother Bo and all here ! Yes, I did not expect to convert any of the "new agers" by calling their beliefs "junk"; but those concepts, and some selected UBk gems, do tend to inform and strengthen or enthuse those few, or many here, who are also out to more tactfully convert, and hopefully, more gently persuade others to the UBk truths, meanings and values. As you know there are many good and blunt statements in there, not approved by the Shirley McLaine philosophies folk. Yes, I well know that Eternal Now Reality will ultimately displace the (falsely named) "new age" groups with borrowed Eastern mysticism, etc practices. Balance is what I am seeking for this group. "those stupid fundamentalists !" is slowly replaced with eventually often heard: "those stupid liberal new agers" Hopefully, these swings of decades will continue to become more as a classic damped-oscillatory sinewaveform, superimposed upon an exponentially increasing positive spiritual fruits bias. Over the last year or so, here I have been wearing different hats, "multitasking", and thus confusing many but the sharpest. My main long range function remains; but sometimes, I have descended to politics, morality, or other lesser but necessary duties. The goal of eliminating "new age" beliefs might be somewhere at about my #10 to #20 priority; I don't put much energy into that; as it seems to be fading, at least among the more intelligent persons. I now feel sorry for poor Sister RhonnaLeigh who is trying to figure out my apparently alternating moods. Ha, ha. I have no emotions other than joy, amusement and uncontrolled foaming at the mouth. Never have I cried a tear of sadness in my life; but I have probably caused many. Thank you Sister Nancy Brown for returning here (via broom? Maybe he converted to being an orthodox Jew ? Sure. :)) Love, Light and Life, Your Brother Dave ***************************************************** Oh Brother! Where art thou??

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24897, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24863


Prison World

Rick,

That is a biased commentary on the manifesto...not the manifesto itself.

Stephen

From: Steffani M. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24898, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24809


Caligastia's Message - Stephen

Hi Holly,

I say Amen! to Rain on this subject...and so does "Mom".

Cal/Bob "be-devils" me about as much as he does anyone...but I haven't dissed him because I can see that in a warped kind of way he is trying to do what he believes is 'right'. One can't do that without a TA.

He is in complete denial of the real status and significance of the Thought Adjusters as "Father Fragments" being unable to believe ordinary human beings could be worthy of the fellowship of the direct Presence of God the Father. Or of the spiritual union in true brotherhood of all who seek to do His Will as their supreme desire.

The entity he called his TA...named Celeste...personified more like a midwayer or guardian angel. Nor does sending her home to be on her own to seek her development because her counsel was unnecessary seem to be much more than another king of "shoot yerself in the foot" type of self-sabotage. He has described a vision of going up on a mountain and doing what seems to be in essence fusing with Father...so why give up hope for him? I haven't.

He is projecting all his 'stuff' onto others (like me...a safe one to use for this purpose;-) judging many God knowing souls as "evildoers", "blasphemers" and "miscreants" based on his retrogressive concepts of "religion" based upon what he calls logic. And he really does push the limits on denial of much that is good and holy...he recently boasted on ESG that he told some "Christians" on a Bible forum who enquired whether he has been 'born again' with..."No. I got it right the first time."

This would be funny but being in a state of separation from God is as close to hell as one can manage to get to get oneself into...you know?

Nor do I think he advocates "worship" of Lucifer...he just wants his status as "God of Urantia" to still be in effect even after waking up as a mortal...sad...and it must be really scarey to think the universe Muckety Mucks are out to fry your eternal personal identity out of existence though if one wants to live...but...can't go 'there'.

I see Cal/Bob and his "associates" as the finest opportunity I have as yet encountered on Urantia providing assistance as teachers from whom I can learn to test my resolve to learn "unconditional love" in this mortal incarnation...even as Father would have me learn to be like Him...frankly, they may yet prove to be of semi-infinite value in this regard...functioning well as role models for what I do not desire to be like when I grow up ;-)

...More like sheep in wolve's clothing perhaps...and who says wolves are so awful and not inadvertantly also accomplishing Father's will...at least we are informed that "all things work together for good". And nothing ever comes as a surprise to God the Father.

see...UB: P.49 p.3 & P.619 p. 3

UB: P.617 last & P.618 p.0

10. The Divine Minister of Salvington issued as her third independent proclamation a mandate directing that nothing be done to half cure, cowardly suppress, or otherwise hide the hideous visage of rebels and rebellion. The angelic hosts were directed to work for full disclosure and unlimited opportunity for sin-expression as the quickest technique of achieving the perfect and final cure of the plague of evil and sin. UB: P. 615 p.4 & 5

Although conscious and wholehearted identification with evil (sin) is the equivalent of nonexistence (annihilation), there must always intervene between the time of such personal identification with sin and the execution of the penalty-the automatic result of such a willful embrace of evil-a period of time of sufficient length to allow for such an adjudication of such an individual's universe status as will proveentirely satisfactory to all related universe personalities, and which will be so fair and just as to win the approval of the sinner himself.

But if this universe rebel against the reality of truth and goodness refuses to approve the verdict, and if the guilty one knows in his heart the justice of his condemnation but refuses to make such confession, then must the execution of sentence be delayed in accordance with the discretion of the Ancients of Days. And the Ancients of Days refuse to annihilate any being until all moral values and all spiritual realities are extinct, both in the evildoer and all related sympathizers and possible sympathizers.

Only Love,

Steffani

Hi Rain!

Welcome back!

I tend to agree that there is hope for them, but it is not for me to judge. Caligastia said he rejected his Thought Adjuster, and the UB says once that is done it is done. Whether that statement is real or not, is between him and the Father, and the judgment of himself is between himself and the AoD's when the time comes. It is not for me or anybody to judge the eternal fate, but it is true in that once the Adjuster leaves (and it only leaves upon rejection) it is final. I am not making such judgment except to reject the *message* sent, and to say his *messages* are not to be *trusted* and that is what I reject. Please take another look, OK?

I agree the father weeps and grieves...as do all of us for every son and daughter lost.

I did not mention Dal at all.

Thanks for writing Rain, I love your insights and thoughts, your posts in general and you have been missed!

Blessings peace and love, Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

While most of your postings blow me away they are so sage and insightful on the issue of Caligastia's fate I most humbly disagree. From the flaming throne of Glory there are heard from deep within, our Fathers cries of grief and despair for his lost Sons, who he is waiting for as they take thier selfish sweet stubborn time to come to thier senses and return to Him. We must hold on tight to our gleaming shield of faith and know how its light not only illuminates the way of our Lord, but also shines brightly enough for us to forge into the darkness and help find our lost brothers and help them home. We wouldn't be very good sisters to our brothers if we didn't help them out when they loose thier heads. Cal and Dal have right up until the time they loose consciousness, and are thereby unable to make the decision to get thier heads screwed back on and return to Father to decide. Father will be overwhelmed with joy when they get by his side and sit on the thrones of glorious light that he has waiting for them. But the sooner this fiasco ends the better. I pray that this battle ends immediately if not sooner, and that our found brothers are escorted to His court of Glory. Dont give up on him Holly, on them. They are beautiful, just confused, so confused that they do not even know who thier Father is nor do they recognize his Son. Remember, it is Gods will that all his sons, high and low, survive. God grieves and yearns for his lost Sons. It is imperative that they get home at once. At the end of the day I believe that God has a great party planned to celebrate such a Happy ending to a rather nightmarish story. Again, Holly, other than on this issue you are a bright light and so right on!

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24899, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24865


Prison World

Larry,

---First off I'm not the jury. I'm the assistant D.A.

ST: For the sake of the discussion, I will assume the role of defense attorney.

---And the Urantia Papers do present the salient points of the Lucifer manifesto. ---

ST: This is a biased commentary on the manifesto itself. It is hearsay evidence and not admissible.

---The below lists the charges stemming from Lucifer's manifesto. There's more but I've kept it short, but would be happy to present it all...but then you say you've read the book so why waste bandwidth.---

ST: Since the evidence has not been offered up and the hearsay evidence is inadmissible, the charges have no merit and be dropped immediately, and my client's reputation restored.

---I will ask you more pointedly: Do you have access to the manifesto as a defender of Caligastia who tied his tail to Lucifer in his declaration of false liberty? If not why not just ask Califastia for it? ---

ST: The assitant D.A. has no case. I am certianly not going to make one for opposing counsel.

From the Urantia Book:

---THE LUCIFER MANIFESTO 53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads: 53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father's name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father's actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel's proposals. 53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son -- Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler. 53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days -- "foreign potentates" -- to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights. 53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days. 53:3.6 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical an ---

ST: Since there is no chain of custody for this document you present as evidence and charges, it is inadmissible. And by the way, these so called charges against my clients are in fact an indictment of the Universal Father if indeed my premise regarding paragraph 1 paper 1 is not dispelled by the offering of evidence to the contrary.

Stephen

From: DebraLee A. 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24901, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24899


Prison World

Greetings Stephen,

we're praying for you............Peace

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24902, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24869


Several Good Reasons?

Larry,

I just got a great idea. I'll write a book and take some of the words of the Divine Counselor and quote them in my writings, alter them a little in such a way as to make it appear that I am the God of all creation, and that everyone should bow down in worship to me. After all, the Divine Counselor is not about to complain or take me to law on it...he/she didn't come forward when the case over copywrite was happening. I would then publish it as a book, and start a study group, and make a lot of money off sales. And good luck trying to talk the "believers" out of it.

What do you think, does it sound like a good idea?

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24904, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24869


Several Good Reasons?

Larry,

Just because you admit to a crime does not mean you are any less responsible.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/9/02
Msg. No: 24905, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24883


Prison World

Carol,

If an individual makes grievous charges against another, the evidence must be brought forth, or the charges are dropped for lack of evidence. A defendant also has a right to face their accuser...but the accuser is nowhere to be found. Produce the author of the book which makes the charges, or accept that it is hearsay and inadmissible. If a document is offered into evidence and a chain of custody can be verified, it would not be plagairism. If the Divine Counselor had properly quoted and indetified the Prophet, then plagiarism would not be up for discussion now...would it.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24907, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24901


Prison World

Debralee,

Thank you for your prayers.

I too pray for you.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24909, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


"Private e-mail"

Patrick,

You have sent me 2 e-mails lately expressly stating that you do not give permission to forward them to anyone...and I have not done so.

I have nothing to hide, and therefore I post publicly.

I want you to know that I will not respond to your "private" e-mails.

If you have a question to ask me regarding this forum, and my participation here, I would prefer it to be made in public.

Stephen

From: Steve R. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24910, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24909

 

Patrick, You have sent me 2 e-mails lately expressly stating that you do not give permission to forward them to anyone...and I have not done so. I have nothing to hide, and therefore I post publicly. I want you to know that I will not respond to your "private" e-mails. If you have a question to ask me regarding this forum, and my participation here, I would prefer it to be made in public. Stephen ***************************************************** Is there any doubt in anyone's mind where Stephen is coming from? This is a direct public challenge to Patrick, who has been a wonderful list op for UBRON! I for one want Patrick to know how much I support him, I don't need to be made privy to Pat's communication to Stephen, I know what it was about by Stephens actions. Patrick volunteers his time and services, he should not have this kind of frustration thrown in his face, it just shows how uncooperative Stephen is and illustrates he has an agenda that is counter productive to UBRON. I hope this latest telling show of Stephens will garner an appropriate reaction from the members that want to see harmony here. Pat if he wants it public then give it to him, or take him out all together, that's my vote. What do you all think?

From: Dale A. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24911, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates


Several Good Reasons?

Hi Stephen: 

Re: "I just got a great idea. I'll write a book ..." 

Take a number and get in the line-up. Tony of Sedony is years ahead of you...

 http://www.aquarianconcepts.org/homestudy.html

 

From: DebraLee A. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24916, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24907


Prison World

Greeting Stephen,

Thank You for praying for me, but when i emailed that same message to you privately, you privately sent back a very different response, than this one you posted to Ubron, and it wasn't very nice.

God's Will be done on Urth as it is in heaven Peace,DebraLee

From: Rick W. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24917, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24916


Prison World

Dear DebraLee, Ubron Siblings,

Stephen Thorburn enjoys the role of troublemaker and loves it when he can provoke, demean or belittle others. Responding to him only keeps him stuck in place, disparaging that which he has so foolishly rejected.

There is only one response that works with troublesome ones like Stephen, ignore him. He will go wherever he can evince a negative response and if he can't get it, he will leave. If he is engaged he will invariably devolve to argument, disagreement and hateful banter. Lord only knows what other depraved behavior his apostasy has led him to.

He is a grown up, who when a child, liked to knock down the other children's projects. He acts the part of a religious bully who clings to the false certainty of his theological superiority. He is truly a pathetic man and deserves our prayers. But to engage him is a losing activity because his mind is ill and cannot change its focus from the negativity and destruction of other's faith. Perhaps he can be salvaged, but it will take someone of Jesus' power and stature to save him from the path of hate filled sectarian religious enmity that he has chosen.

Sorry to have to expose these proclivities of yours in public Stephen, but your sickness affords no other method. Please pray to the Master and ask if it is not too late to return to the loving family of your brothers and sisters on the royal road to Paradise.

Please consider not replying to Mr. Thorburn unless it is necessary for your growth. l believe all posts intended to help or reform Stephen will be treated, by him, with suspicion and contempt. I would not have written this except for the fact of his persistent abuse of the Ubron forum and list sweetheart, DebraLee. If that does not prove his postings are imbalanced, then the other strange ideas and sick attacks on Holly and other members trying to reach him, do prove it.

Even these words are a salve for the religious egoist. God help them.

Love to all, Rick W.

DebraLee posted:

Greeting Stephen, Thank You for praying for me, but when i emailed that same message to you privately, you privately sent back a very different response, than this one you posted to Ubron, and it wasn't very nice.

God's Will be done on Urth as it is in heaven Peace,DebraLee

DebraLee A.

From: Larry G. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24918, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


Na na na na na na

Ding!

Whoops, Stephen T, my patience bell just went off.

That means that although I enjoyed our chat and your company, I must leave off now or be swept down into na naism myself. That what the brother does when he doesn't want to hear anything. Sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts "na na na na na na!" all the while thinking he's saying something meaningful.

Perhaps one day we can sit down with a dictionary between us and come to terms.

Unless Patrick decides to make his comments public, then I would probably shout some endearing terms to get past your fingers.

Have a wonderful life...

* * * * * * *

From: Mrs. Holly C. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24919, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24846


Personal Attacks

Well, Stephen,

Its seems we aren't answering each other's questions... and I hope that this was "understood" that I am referring to this subject introduced by you which has meandered from topic to topic and has been posted under several subject headers...I am not a perfect writer, and don't always manage to express exactly what I mean, and that is a drawback for those of us who don't always write well. Thank God people realize that none of us is perfect.

I just feel that you are angry or frustrated maybe...something in that realm anyway - perhaps because you are still in a phase of having an unsatifactory response from all the listees, including me, and that has contributed to this feeling of sensing you are agitated. Correct me if I am wrong.

I feel that I have expressed all that I can express on your posts and questions...there is nothing more for me to say about them at this time.

While you and I may not see eye to eye on this subject, I have called you no names, and I see that you acknowledge it here in another post.

My experiences and thoughts as who I am don't come from the Urantia Book, for I have walked with God in my life for a very, very long time. While this is purely subjective to anyone else, I know Him in my life personally and in my heart without books...hence the other posts suggesting you throw your books down...but of course, that is entirely up to you. I only found the books years after my personal experiences...and they serve as helpful guides and reminders for me.

What I see happening here is a vicious circle... and by that, I mean once a person has formed a final opinion of something, and they try to convince someone else of that opinion, and that person also has drawn a conclusion (hence an opinion), then the result is often that the one is never going to convince the other of their view....UNLESS an open mind is had by both.

It is my choice to cease discussion of this topic because I have given all I can give to your questions...and the others are trying to explore this with you and are doing better than I can.

So, as far I am choosing not to "talk to you" I mean about this topic.

May your future be bright, may you find all that you seek, and may you become what you desire,

Peace, Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Holly,

Well, you sure avoided answering any of my questions, and to top it off, said you no longer wish to talk to me unless I believe as you do. How nice. Now everybody pat Holly on the back for doing such a good job.

Stephen

---

Dear Stephen,

I'm not into playing word games, and making huge debates. So this is the last I will write to you.

The truth is within you to discover and then to know, just as it is in all of us to discover and then to know as we travel along on our pathways through life. Follow the still small voice within.

Throw away your books, your human authorities, and any other perceived authorities, shut out the noise of banter and debate, stand up and believe in your own integrity, your own spirit and soul, and listen to the living God within.

You are able to decide by the living way.

The truth is within you.

Peace and blessings await you and all who will...,

Holly

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---You are doing a great job of detecting a wolf in sheep's clothing.

And "Fear Not", while Larry is busy doing a great job, there are other influences too...153:4.1...when the Master's spirit was poured out upon all flesh, making it forever impossible for these few celestial rebels to take such advantage of certain unstable types of human beings. ...snip

I was referring to Caligastia...a Lanondek son who is a rebellious one, one who rejected his Father, the Paradise Father, God Himself, and one who is a fallen prince of this planet.

There is also one who is professing to be this same Caligastia, who also publicly expressed that he rejected his Thought Adjuster (and did it right here on this forum). That rejection is final and is the same as rejecting God. You know him and his writings, have posted them here and have sent them privately also.---

ST: Name-calling is name-calling. Your assumptions based solely upon BELIEF in the UB.

---Are you saying you are this person by thinking that I called YOU a name?

He used the same ill=logic and spiritually dis-eased logic as Lucifer did in his manifesto of false liberty. A wolf in sheep's clothing. ---

ST: Show me this manifesto so I can read it.

---His logic was/is as a wolf in sheep's clothing designed to lead honest and sincere souls astray, to lead them away from God and to worship lucifer instead. ---

ST: Quote where he or I have declared as much.

---But the Spirit of Truth will not allow such nonsense to prevail in any who are normal minded, born of the Spirit, or who are minded to follow the righteous path set forth by our Creator.

Jesus said: "Any who will may come." But again, as I said to Sam, I say to you and anyone reading along, if anyone wants this guidance then they must allow the Spirit of Truth to work in their life, and sometimes they need to ask him to come in.

The Spirit of Truth is a who, a Spirit minister who leads people to Master Michael-Jesus Christ, who in turn leads people to the Father of all Creations. And Michael poured out this Spirit over all the earth over 2,000 years ago, finally and completely settling for all time the possibility of spirit posessions, or any celestial being from bothering, hurthing, or otherwise doing any kind of real harm to His children.

You too, can ask... its all up to your soul's true desire. ---

ST: According to who...you, Bill Sadler, or Wilfred Kellogg?

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24920, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24911


Several Good Reasons?

Dale,

And it seems the "Divine Counselor" has "Tony of Sedony" beat to the punch...The line of false prophets is longer than you think.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24921, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24916


Prison World

Debralee,

If you wish to post it publicly I have no objection.

Stephen

From: Rick C. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24925, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24897


Prison World

Steven Thorburn,

This is my last post to you. It is not for my gain.

When people speak or write words, which express thoughts, there opens a gate into their soul. When this gate is open those who desire can and do step in, and look around.

You opened your gate to me, and I walked into your soul and looked around. I looked in you attic, basement, and cupboards, and saw what you were about Stephen.

If in the future you do not wish for others to look at the true you and your goods, please close the gate.

I saw nothing in there that could be considered gain by sharing it with me.

There is a friend though, standing afar off in there. One who scares you. Who askes you to trust, and have faith, beyond logic. It might be to your advantage to listen to him. He is the one who watches you in sorrow Stephen.

o2b1

From: Peter H. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24927, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24889


Prison World: Sept Rain

Hi Sept!

Again I agree, but since your original response was to my defence of Newagers, it seems that you are saying in effect that we (Urantia Book believers) are right and they (Newagers) are wrong. My point was that we are both a mixture of right and wrong, truth and error.

That is, their arguments are no more shoddy nor are they less reflective than us (or if so, only by a matter of degree).

Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying, somehow?

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Peter H. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24928, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24894


'new age' tactics - Bo and U2 maybe

Hi Dave!

YOU SAID: The goal of eliminating "new age" beliefs might be somewhere at about my #10 to #20 priority;

MY COMMENT: Maybe it would be simpler just to eliminate new agers! How does gas chambers and crematoriums strike you? has it ever occurred to you that the *Jesusonian* thing to do would be to keep the best of their religion and add to it? Would you destroy their belief in "Christ consciousness", as well?

Peter

From: Maria L. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24936, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24917


Prison World

Jesus taught a balance between standing up for what is right and turning the other cheek. I believe that when one is doing real harm to another, action of some sort is called for. I also believe that when one is attempting to settle the focus onto negativity that the worst thing we can do is follow along. Focusing on what is negative only perpetuates it. Redirecting towards the positive...towards Father... so often solves what originally seemed to be a problem in the first place. Attitude and perspective are so important.

I truly feel that when a person is sharing his lessor self with others....that it is a weakness to then reflect the same back. On the other hand, following the lead of Jesus, one can overlook the insults...overlook the manipulations....overlook whatever appears to be negative....and remain focused on Father. In other words....do not react...only act.

When someone is intent upon being negative...it is an energy thing. The idea is to attract attention and when people then react back...that is exactly the desired effect.

But....when someone is negative..and he is either responded to with complete positivity...or...not at all....then the attempt has been futile.

I personally would not choose to entertain someone who wishes to manipulate my attention in that manner. We all have so much to share with each other and it is a shame to lose that focus.

We all have Fathers light within us...we all do...and often when situations with dealing with one another become difficult...it is so refreshing to remember that we can focus on that spark of perfection that is guiding each of us.

All of you on here are precious....and it is more than wonderful to be able to witness so many sharing their best selves with everyone. Let us band together and focus on Father and on the message that Jesus taught us. Let us come together in unity of what is good and positive and react not to what is otherwise.

For each action there is a consequence. I trust that each Adjuster has each child well at hand. I also trust that our list op has each of us well at hand insofar as deciding when enough is enough.

Love,

Maria LeBaron

From: Jonathon T. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24937, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates


Message for Stephen T.

Dear Stephen,

I just got word from on high that the quote in question

is the most accurate translation from the ancient tongue

to English and the "Prophet" who spoke these lines of

wisdom has given the Divine Counselor total permission

to use these lines in the epochal Urantia Papers.

This permission was granted in the presence of the most

holy Ancients of Days, the supreme tribunal of Orvonton.

Therefore be at peace, all is well, the Ancients of Days are

in control and doing a fantastic job!

If you want to continue your charges of plagiarism etc.

you now know that permission has been granted

and is in the hands of the Custodians of Knowledge whom

are ever accessible to the Ancients of Days.

If you have any proof contrary to this please do present it.

Since it behooves an accuser to show evidence as I'm sure

you are well aware as evidenced by your persistent use

of legal jargon in presenting your case.

Thank you Stephen, I am glad to be of service to the

Ancients Of Days in presenting this message to you.

Fellow Son of God ,

Jon

From: Jonathon T. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24939, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates


anecdote for Stephen T.

Dear Stephen ,

As an aside from my last "official" message I have a little funny anecdote to share with you . When I was receiving the " official message " I overheard a conversation among the executioners of the Ancients of Days as a group of 10 or more were gathered close by during my audience with the great beyond measure, Ancients of Days.

These loveable executioners of the Ancients of Days were engaged in a lively conversation about guess who? Your friend Cal ! Wow , I thought you would really want to know what they were saying so I eavesdropped during a lull in my audience with the grand Ancients of Days. I could tell that even though they were smiling and enjoying a little levity that there was a palatable sadness to their conversation.

What little I heard was this , they were comparing Cal to Peter Pan !! That's right Peter Pan from the Disney movie! I couldn't believe it , I'll bet ol Walt Disney is surprised! Who would think that Peter Pan is played on Orvonton ?

Do you think I should call Disney and see if they are getting royalties? I don't know but with your apparent interest in law and lawsuits I figured you might know.

Have you ever seen Peter Pan ? If you have can you relate to his attitude of lets get rid of the parents we can run things better without them? What do you think the executioners of the glorious Ancients of Days meant by comparing Cal to Peter Pan ?

Thats all for now , have a great forever, Jon

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24942, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance


Publicizing List Operations

Hello again, Everyone!

Recently under "General", Stephen stated that his preference would be for Patrick (when functioning as List Operator) to post his input publicly rather than e-mail privately. I believe that could be a solution to many less-than-perfect situations we're all aware of here at UBRON.

First, and only because it's most obvious to my mind, is it could significantly reduce Patrick's stress. I know it's hard for me to separate myself into my various functions. So I imagine making that switch many times throughout the day, is just as hard for Patrick. And is probably the reason we aren't treated more often to his personal involvement in discussions here, which I really miss.

Second, having ListOp positions made known to all reading would certainly serve to clarify much doubt as to what ALL of UBRON's goals are, besides the oft-repeated-in-public ones. The more informed people are, the more powerful their choice to participate in UBRON discussions can be.

Third, I believe this could really speed up our attainment of true Self- Governance as a group. Being shown how it's done, could speed the arrival of that day when Patrick only has to be Patrick here. I want to see more of us taking responsibility for our preferences in UBRON communications, instead of hoping some invisible power above us will "provide", you know? There's no real security until we ourselves provide us what we need for getting along with each other.

Fourth, and probably most important of all, I don't think it fosters a sense of being cared for, to have someone "in authority over us" more of less ask us to shut up to keep the peace. Children misbehave when following orders hasn't worked to produce the results required for a sense of wellbeing. Troublesome posters are no differently motivated, in my opinion. Private corrections of behavior from a person who is obviously feeling overwhelmed with another issue already, can only heighten the stress that person is operating under. It's like saying, "Please, could you hide your pain a little better, so that we can more easily continue to ignore your requests for help?"

I don't know much about software, or anything computer for that matter. But it seems to me that it should be possible to create a box on the registration page where people can specify whether or not they choose public ListOp corrections for "misdemeanor posting" or private corrections. The selected option would then automatically send from a computer with ListOp powers enabled, to individual posters in whichever manner they had selected to receive such pointers. Does anyone who knows how these things work, think that can be done?

I think the more we share, the faster we'll all realize our potentials at UBRON. Private disciplinary actions between site administrators and problematic posters keeps the group in the dark about what is -- and what is not -- acceptable, which surely must add to their administrative load. And it also cheats the group of opportunities to assume more responsibility for the UBRON experience had by each and all.

Sincerely, RhonnaLeigh

From: Saskia P. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24943, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24942


Publicizing List Operations

Hello everyone,

I have an idea that might help UBRON become a place people like to visit and return to. How about a rule that members can only post once per 24-hour period? This way people will really have to think about what they say, and it forces them to wait another 24 hours before they can have another say. And how about a word limit? In this manner people will have to work a little harder to gather their thoughts and ideas to condense them into one post. Some people seem to have no sense of when they have begun to bore everyone. This will help to do away with the plethora of mediocre posts that flood the site, the back and forth of people who have to have the last word, that have driven people like me to set my dynamic email to OFF and rarely check in to UBRON any more.

Saskia

From: Steve R. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24945, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24943


Publicizing List Operations

Hi Saskia, With all due respect, I think your idea would drive more people away from UBRON. Freedom and interaction are what makes UBRON interesting and exciting, if we restrict and constrict it will take away from spontaneity and cause frustration in not being able to share when one wants to share. It would also mean trying to address many issues into one post and responding to various people in one post, leading to tremendous confusion and causing the need to keep copius notes and such to even keep things straight in your own mind. I think it would be a disaster! Sorry! :)

From: Steffani M. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24946, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24876


Prison World

I agree John,

There must be an English language version floating around somewhere because dedicated UBphiles manage to quote it fairly frequently.

One lady tried to tell me it is really ACIM.

As I've asked and no one has been willing to share the whole thing it is possible that they only have this reader's digest condensed version or the 'Cliff notes'. Too bad...so sad...that "the rest of the story" isn't known as the UB is cut on the Andromedan bias.

If Cal had a copy he sure prefers his own edited edition ;-)

Only Love,

Steff

Larry and Rick,

In Stephen's defense, the UB does not give the whole Lucifer Manifesto, but rather paraphrases it by stating "salient points." In the portion provided by Larry, there is but one quotation -- Lucifer calling the AOD's "foreign potentates."

Since Lucifer most certainly did not write out the Manifesto in English, we are dependent upon those who know what the Manifesto was all about to tell us what was stated in it. However, it appears that what was given to us was the Universal interpretation of the Lucifer Manifesto rather than the Manifesto, itself.

It is not incumbent upon the Universal personalities to make Lucifer's case for Lucifer, but it would have been nice if we could have gotten a more detailed and comprehensive version of the Manifesto.

John

From: Gene N. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24949, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Purported Celestials , Reply to: 24935


.

I have with weary interest monitored the alphabetic communications between us and them (Cal/Bob/Steven etc). Our position as spirit motivated, adjuster-guided, pre-morontia ascedant s*ns of God is to not judge. Gabriel has quite a task indeed. Our prayers are for justice in this matter. "Love is the open door. Love is what we came here for. No one can offer you more. Do you know what I mean? Has your heart truly seen?"

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24953, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24943


Publicizing List Operations

Good suggestions, Saskia!

I don't know that the one-post-per-day one would work out very well, but I'm definitely one of those who, IF I could be more successfull at keeping my word count down, would make be more useful at UBRON.

Keep visualizing possibilities,

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/10/02
Msg. No: 24959, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24937


Message for Stephen T.

Jon,

All I have is your word on this...please show your evidence and provide the chain of custody for this evidence.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24967, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24910

 

Steve,

---Patrick, You have sent me 2 e-mails lately expressly stating that you do not give permission to forward them to anyone...and I have not done so. I have nothing to hide, and therefore I post publicly. I want you to know that I will not respond to your "private" e-mails. If you have a question to ask me regarding this forum, and my participation here, I would prefer it to be made in public. Stephen---

***************************************************** Is there any doubt in anyone's mind where Stephen is coming from?---

ST: I have stated facts as I see them. And I have asked simple questions with regard to the facts stated...and received answers to which I have addressed with the facts. I have even posted a recap of the facts, and still no response that jives with the facts stated. In response I have been treated to insults, disparaging remarks as to my character, and even threats. As those perpetrating the insults, disparagments and threats pat each other on the back about how loving they are. This makes me want to vomit.

---This is a direct public challenge to Patrick, who has been a wonderful list op for UBRON! I for one want Patrick to know how much I support him, I don't need to be made privy to Pat's communication to Stephen, I know what it was about by Stephens actions.---

ST: There is no challenge explicit or implicit in this simple request to have discussions relevent to this forum public. I have nothing to hide nor should he.

---Patrick volunteers his time and services, he should not have this kind of frustration thrown in his face, it just shows how uncooperative Stephen is and illustrates he has an agenda that is counter productive to UBRON.---

ST: Has Patrick authorized you to speak for him? If he is frustrated and wishes to tell me so, he does not need you to speak for him. If you think that everyone should think exactly as you do and be "cooperative" and bow down to you or anyone else in here who presumes to lord over me, I think you are only fooling yourself. Open and honest discussion is productive and leads to truth as long as the participants can remain civil. Consider what the UB cites as the reasons for the downfall of the school at Urmia. Not all idols are made of stone and clay, some are made of paper and ink. My agenda is to arrive at truth and I don't care if it is at the expense of your precious book. If your book truly has merit, then it will show itself as having merit, but if it cannot stand up to simple scrutiny, then it deserves to end up in the trash heap. Either way I would not elevate it to high status as to worship or devotion...that is reserved for Father alone.

---I hope this latest telling show of Stephens will garner an appropriate reaction from the members that want to see harmony here. Pat if he wants it public then give it to him, or take him out all together, that's my vote. What do you all think? ---

ST: I think this is an outright threat to my person, and indicative of the lynch mob mentality I have been experiencing on this forum of late. And this in the name of harmony. Shame on you! If anything, it is YOUR hypocracy which is the telling show.

Stephen

From: Steve R. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24968, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24917


Prison World

I post this in support of Rick W. because not only do I agree with him, I think it is important to show a solidarity and respect for someone who has the strength and courage to tell it like it is. Ultimately I think we all know what the outcome will be. This is not because Patrick is the list op, but because this is a community, subject to unwritten law that is formed by the consensus of us all. One of the reasons I like UBRON is that here is a place where TRUTH RULES! This forum is made up of many of the most intelligent, honest, truth seekers I have had the pleasure of interacting with. When the harmony is threatened in various ways it is interesting to watch how the situation is taken care of. I see this as very similar to our encounter with Sergie, we all know the outcome of that, how could it be any other way, ultimately?

***************************************************** Dear DebraLee, Ubron Siblings, Stephen Thorburn enjoys the role of troublemaker and loves it when he can provoke, demean or belittle others. Responding to him only keeps him stuck in place, disparaging that which he has so foolishly rejected. There is only one response that works with troublesome ones like Stephen, ignore him. He will go wherever he can evince a negative response and if he can't get it, he will leave. If he is engaged he will invariably devolve to argument, disagreement and hateful banter. Lord only knows what other depraved behavior his apostasy has led him to. He is a grown up, who when a child, liked to knock down the other children's projects. He acts the part of a religious bully who clings to the false certainty of his theological superiority. He is truly a pathetic man and deserves our prayers. But to engage him is a losing activity because his mind is ill and cannot change its focus from the negativity and destruction of other's faith. Perhaps he can be salvaged, but it will take someone of Jesus' power and stature to save him from the path of hate filled sectarian religious enmity that he has chosen. Sorry to have to expose these proclivities of yours in public Stephen, but your sickness affords no other method. Please pray to the Master and ask if it is not too late to return to the loving family of your brothers and sisters on the royal road to Paradise. Please consider not replying to Mr. Thorburn unless it is necessary for your growth. l believe all posts intended to help or reform Stephen will be treated, by him, with suspicion and contempt. I would not have written this except for the fact of his persistent abuse of the Ubron forum and list sweetheart, DebraLee. If that does not prove his postings are imbalanced, then the other strange ideas and sick attacks on Holly and other members trying to reach him, do prove it. Even these words are a salve for the religious egoist. God help them. Love to all, Rick W.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24969, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24917


Prison World

Rick,

---Stephen Thorburn enjoys the role of troublemaker and loves it when he can provoke, demean or belittle others. Responding to him only keeps him stuck in place, disparaging that which he has so foolishly rejected.---

ST: I have not demeaned or belittled anyone. I think it is apparent that the demeaning and disparaging has wholely been directed toward me from the "believers" in here. And solely as a direct result of being unable to address the facts I have presented. If the UB fails to stand up to simple scrutiny, then you yourself, as a sincere truthseeker, should be the first in line to disparage and reject it.

---There is only one response that works with troublesome ones like Stephen, ignore him. He will go wherever he can evince a negative response and if he can't get it, he will leave. If he is engaged he will invariably devolve to argument, disagreement and hateful banter. Lord only knows what other depraved behavior his apostasy has led him to.---

ST: Are you suggesting that if you ignore a truth that you find troublesome, it will simply go away, or if you censor the one offering it, that it changes the facts pertaining to it in any way shape or form? I argue to bring truth to light...this is a service offered freely. Never have I indulged in "hateful banter". I think your characterizations of me are more a projection of your fears and anxiety about the facts I have put up for discussion, and the inability of anyone in here to address them, than anything else...But this is mere guessing on my part and is offered only as food for thought, as I am no more qualified to psychoanalyze you than you are to psychoanalyze me.

---He is a grown up, who when a child, liked to knock down the other children's projects. He acts the part of a religious bully who clings to the false certainty of his theological superiority. He is truly a pathetic man and deserves our prayers. But to engage him is a losing activity because his mind is ill and cannot change its focus from the negativity and destruction of other's faith. Perhaps he can be salvaged, but it will take someone of Jesus' power and stature to save him from the path of hate filled sectarian religious enmity that he has chosen. ---

ST: You have never met me, and you know nothing of my life. Your statements above are presumptious and arrogant. Faith in a book is pure idolatry, and idolatry is a grievous sin, and in direct defiance of the commandments spoken of in the Bible, and in the Urantia Book as well. If your faith is so tenuous that a few comments about the first paragraph of the book are going to be "destructive" of it, then I think you might wish to reevaluate where your faith is being placed. I hate evil, falsehoods, blasphemy and idolatry...to this I give voice, but I have not voiced any hatred toward any individual in here ever.

---Sorry to have to expose these proclivities of yours in public Stephen, but your sickness affords no other method. Please pray to the Master and ask if it is not too late to return to the loving family of your brothers and sisters on the royal road to Paradise.-- -

ST: Your actions speak louder than your holier than thou pronouncement of being a member of a "loving family" of "brothers and sisters". Jesus had words appropriate to this: "remove first the beam from your own eye"

---Please consider not replying to Mr. Thorburn unless it is necessary for your growth. l believe all posts intended to help or reform Stephen will be treated, by him, with suspicion and contempt. I would not have written this except for the fact of his persistent abuse of the Ubron forum and list sweetheart, DebraLee. If that does not prove his postings are imbalanced, then the other strange ideas and sick attacks on Holly and other members trying to reach him, do prove it.

Even these words are a salve for the religious egoist. God help them. ---

ST: When you first got into the teachings of the UB, were you ever told by someone that your ideas were strange or even sick, but yet you continued reading on because of your curiousity and an open mind coupled with the desire to discern whether this was right and true or not was more important than anything another might say about your character. I ask you only to keep your mind open and your discernment keen, and not sacrifice them at the altar of the book. Worship to Father, after all, is first and foremost...wouldn't you agree?

Stephen

From: Steve R. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24970, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24967

 

Time will tell Stephen, obviously you must be setting these things in motion by something you are doing, surely you don't think a choir boy as you see yourself would elicit these responses do you? It is very common for someone in your position to point fingers at the rest of the world, it's everybody's fault but yours. We'll see! Perhaps you will turn this around, I doubt you will do it by "vomiting" words such as you write below, or attacking the likes of DebraLee. If I were the only one, you might have a point, under the circumstances, with the amount of energy building in reaction to you, I will have to take issue with the accusation that I am a hypocrite. If you recall, I caught your vibe early on, it's not hard to get a "feel" for what is going on here, I asked you then quite honestly, "Wouldn't you rather go somewhere where you get more agreement?" What we have here is a failure to communicate. Please continue.

***************************************************** Steve, ---Patrick, You have sent me 2 e-mails lately expressly stating that you do not give permission to forward them to anyone...and I have not done so. I have nothing to hide, and therefore I post publicly. I want you to know that I will not respond to your "private" e-mails. If you have a question to ask me regarding this forum, and my participation here, I would prefer it to be made in public. Stephen--- ***************************************************** Is there any doubt in anyone's mind where Stephen is coming from?--- ST: I have stated facts as I see them. And I have asked simple questions with regard to the facts stated...and received answers to which I have addressed with the facts. I have even posted a recap of the facts, and still no response that jives with the facts stated. In response I have been treated to insults, disparaging remarks as to my character, and even threats. As those perpetrating the insults, disparagments and threats pat each other on the back about how loving they are. This makes me want to vomit. ---This is a direct public challenge to Patrick, who has been a wonderful list op for UBRON! I for one want Patrick to know how much I support him, I don't need to be made privy to Pat's communication to Stephen, I know what it was about by Stephens actions.--- ST: There is no challenge explicit or implicit in this simple request to have discussions relevent to this forum public. I have nothing to hide nor should he. ---Patrick volunteers his time and services, he should not have this kind of frustration thrown in his face, it just shows how uncooperative Stephen is and illustrates he has an agenda that is counter productive to UBRON.--- ST: Has Patrick authorized you to speak for him? If he is frustrated and wishes to tell me so, he does not need you to speak for him. If you think that everyone should think exactly as you do and be "cooperative" and bow down to you or anyone else in here who presumes to lord over me, I think you are only fooling yourself. Open and honest discussion is productive and leads to truth as long as the participants can remain civil. Consider what the UB cites as the reasons for the downfall of the school at Urmia. Not all idols are made of stone and clay, some are made of paper and ink. My agenda is to arrive at truth and I don't care if it is at the expense of your precious book. If your book truly has merit, then it will show itself as having merit, but if it cannot stand up to simple scrutiny, then it deserves to end up in the trash heap. Either way I would not elevate it to high status as to worship or devotion...that is reserved for Father alone. ---I hope this latest telling show of Stephens will garner an appropriate reaction from the members that want to see harmony here. Pat if he wants it public then give it to him, or take him out all together, that's my vote. What do you all think? --- ST: I think this is an outright threat to my person, and indicative of the lynch mob mentality I have been experiencing on this forum of late. And this in the name of harmony. Shame on you! If anything, it is YOUR hypocracy which is the telling show. Stephen Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24971, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24918


Na na na na na na

Larry,

---Ding!

Whoops, Stephen T, my patience bell just went off. ---

ST: I think you have mistaken that bell for the one labeled...religious intolerance.

---That means that although I enjoyed our chat and your company, I must leave off now or be swept down into na naism myself. That what the brother does when he doesn't want to hear anything. Sticks his fingers in his ears and shouts "na na na na na na!" all the while thinking he's saying something meaningful. ---

ST: If you enjoyed our chat and my company it could not possibly have been the "patience bell". I'd prefer it if you actually DID say something meaningful.

---Perhaps one day we can sit down with a dictionary between us and come to terms.---

ST: Sure, that WOULD be meaningful. Walking away with fingers in ears shouting "na na na na nah" is most assuredly not. Our "chat" had to do with the term "plagiarize" as it is strickly defined. I cited Webster's definition...which more appropriately applies to paragraph 2 of paper 1. In paragraph 1 of paper 1 the Divine Counselor has taken licence with the quote adding words (by the sons of God were the universes made) while still within the bounds of the quotation marks. At the very least, this should raise serious concerns.

---Unless Patrick decides to make his comments public, then I would probably shout some endearing terms to get past your fingers. ---

ST: That is up to Patrick. ---Have a wonderful life...---

Having one...thank you...may yours' be wonderful also.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24972, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24925


Prison World

Rick,

---This is my last post to you. It is not for my gain.

When people speak or write words, which express thoughts, there opens a gate into their soul. When this gate is open those who desire can and do step in, and look around.

You opened your gate to me, and I walked into your soul and looked around. I looked in you attic, basement, and cupboards, and saw what you were about Stephen.

If in the future you do not wish for others to look at the true you and your goods, please close the gate.

I saw nothing in there that could be considered gain by sharing it with me.

There is a friend though, standing afar off in there. One who scares you. Who askes you to trust, and have faith, beyond logic. It might be to your advantage to listen to him. He is the one who watches you in sorrow Stephen.---

The omniscient Rick now presumes to speak for God. OH PALEEZE!

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24973, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24937


Message for Stephen T.

Jon,

---I just got word from on high that the quote in question is the most accurate translation from the ancient tongue to English and the "Prophet" who spoke these lines of wisdom has given the Divine Counselor total permission to use these lines in the epochal Urantia Papers. This permission was granted in the presence of the most holy Ancients of Days, the supreme tribunal of Orvonton.---

ST: Care to name the "Prophet" in question, and the translation you are citing so I can review it. Is the Ancient of Days available to make a sworn statement in the presence of witnesses to that effect?

---If you want to continue your charges of plagiarism etc. you now know that permission has been granted and is in the hands of the Custodians of Knowledge whom are ever accessible to the Ancients of Days.---

ST: Are these "custodians" also willing to come forward and make a statement in the presence of witnesses?

---If you have any proof contrary to this please do present it. Since it behooves an accuser to show evidence as I'm sure you are well aware as evidenced by your persistent use of legal jargon in presenting your case.---

ST: I think the burden of proof is on you.

---Thank you Stephen, I am glad to be of service to the Ancients Of Days in presenting this message to you.

Fellow Son of God , Jon ---

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24974, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24942


Publicizing List Operations

Rhonnaleigh,

We have a local paper in town which has a quote under the name of the paper: "I may dissapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24976, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24943


Publicizing List Operations

Saskia,

---I have an idea that might help UBRON become a place people like to visit and return to. How about a rule that members can only post once per 24-hour period? This way people will really have to think about what they say, and it forces them to wait another 24 hours before they can have another say. And how about a word limit? In this manner people will have to work a little harder to gather their thoughts and ideas to condense them into one post. Some people seem to have no sense of when they have begun to bore everyone. This will help to do away with the plethora of mediocre posts that flood the site, the back and forth of people who have to have the last word, that have driven people like me to set my dynamic email to OFF and rarely check in to UBRON any more.---

ST: In my opinion, such limitations of free speech do not serve the best interests of truth-seeking. If people are not thinking carefully about their writings, I'm sure in a free speech environment the truth will eventually rise to the top. All such restrictions smack of censorship and bespeak fear of the truth.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24977, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24968


Prison World

Steve,

Don't forget to bring the torches, some firewood, and a stake to the lynching. A few marshmallows might be good to bring also.

Stephen

From: Carol F. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24978, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24974


Publicizing List Operations

Hi Stephen, you write: "We have a local paper in town which has a quote under the name of the paper: "I may dissapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." – Voltaire"

One of the reasons I haven’t been complaining about your posts is that I agree with what you are saying here. You are a student of the revelation and you have legitimate concerns that you are addressing with other readers. That is one of the reasons this forum was set up.

On the other hand free speech has a flip side, you can speak but we don’t have to listen. In my opinion you are argumentative and you don’t have a real interest in what any of us have to say. One of the ways freedoms are preserved are through responsibility, on both sides.

If you don’t agree with the opinions of the majority of the members of our list, you should take the initiative to leave. We are a progressive system and your actions are regressive. You have had your say, it looks to me like most people here have made themselves clear, now you need to be responsible and take your complaints elsewhere or accept what the majority appear to have decided, that your complaints have no foundation.

Carol

From: Patrick M. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24980, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General


UBRON Administrative Issues

Dear Members,

Recently, a discussion has taken place about issues of free speech here on UBRON, and a supposed lack of tolerance for divergent views here by me an others. However, even more recently, one of our members, Mr. Stephan Thornburn, has tried to focus the discussion on himself and his personal gripes about how this Forum operates.

This was because, after several weeks, he could find no support for his positions. More recently, this individual has tried to turn the discussion into a dialog about how he is being treated unfairly here, and has posted several replies to members who have challenged him which have been counterproductive to our purpose here.

I do not doubt Stephen's sincerity in trying to express his opinions. We have given him room to do so. I have asked him privately to respond to several questions. Particulary, what he sees as his purpose here. Thus far, all I have been able to glean, along with many others, is that he wants to make his issues the focus of this forum.

For the sake of gettng this Forum back on track to our original purpose, I have suspended Mr.Thornburn's posting rights for the moment. This is not to censor him, it is to simply ensure that the greater prupose of this list is served for the greater good, especially for new members who have come to UBRON looking for a balanced and loving place where they could feel welcome and at home.

I'm sure that there will be some that disagree with this action I have taken, others who will welcome it. No matter the outcome, I'd like to remind everyone that UBRON is not a democracy, it is a free site, and all of our members are guests, as it were, in our living room.

We will continue to welcome all here who will recognize and agree to our common purpose here, but to those who want to make this place a forum for their own biases, their own rants, and who want to use UBRON as a place to spread their prejudices, I speak for the majority when I say that you are not welcome. We are not passing judgment on your status with God, or on your character.

This decision has not been easy for me, and I beleive I have spent enough time on the sidelines about this issue. I wish Stephan well, and hope that he finds the answers to his personal quest.

Thanks for your support,

From: Steve R. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24982, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24977


Prison World

The choice is yours Stephen, you can point all the fingers you want, but the subject here is YOUR behaviour, not your detractors. Like you said in another post to Saskia, "The truth will rise to the top." Why you think you can blast your way into the hearts of those on this forum is beyond me. If that is your goal. All I asked in the begining, which you have never answered, is why you want to be here if your aim is to tear aprt the UB. Others have suggested you really want to be a believer, in my opinion your attitude belays that argument, and it seems more and more people are coming to that conclusion. Please continue.

***************************************************** Steve, Don't forget to bring the torches, some firewood, and a stake to the lynching. A few marshmallows might be good to bring also. Stephen Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn

From: Steven H. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24985, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24613


Recap - Universal Father=antichrist

Dear Mr. Thorburn,

I have not been following the various threads in which you are the protagonist--until last night. I reviewed all of your posts on UBRON, so I am familiar with your arguments. I am less than impressed. I am less familiar with others' responses to you (based on reading your replies and the occasional reproduction included in your posts) so I apologize if I have repeated someone else's argument. I also apologize to those who are already tired of this discussion.

I will choose this post to repond to, since this is where you best summarize your arguments. I trust that you will live up to your word about altering your opinions when you are confronted with a rational rebuttal.

I will use "Thorburn" as your moniker to avoid confusion with my name.

THORBURN: Here is a recap of my points of discussion regarding paper 1 paragraph 1 of the UB.

Please feel free to enter in any evidence you think may illuminate these points.

A. The Prophet says: "by the sons of God were the universes made" (which is not supported by any scripture) Misquote or slander…you decide. If you can provide the verse, which includes this phrasing, I would be very glad to review it.

STEVE: "Misquote or slander"?...and how often do you beat your wife? Since the Divine Counselor nowhere claims he is quoting the Old Testament, I don't see how this can be called a misquote. It is merely your assumption that the DC is misquoting Psalm 33:6. The fact that Duane Faw lists it in his Paramony only means there is some similarity of ideas expressed, not that the psalm is supposed to be a direct or indirect source of the quotation. As for the charge of slander, that is only hyperbole based on your incorrect assumption--which itself counts as slander!

I suppose I should dispose of your charge of plagiarism right now. My dictionary defines "plagiarize" as: 1) to steal and pass off the ideas or words of another as one's own; 2) use (a created production) without crediting the source; 3) present as new and original an idea or product derived from an existing source.

Since the DC attributed the words quoted to "the prophet," definitions #1&3 do not apply. Your presumption that the source is an uncited "existing source" (Psalm 33:6) is merely that, so definitions #2&3 do not apply. If one compares Psalm 33:6 with the quotation in 1:1.1, the similarity is generic at best. Seeing the disparity of expression and content between the two, I don't think any college professor would cite this as an instance of plagiarism. There are internet sites that go into great detail as to what constitutes plagiarism. You, of course, are entitled to your opinion.

THORBURN: B. The Divine Counselor calls the "Universal Father" the "First Source and Center of all things and beings" (things and beings are the domain of the universes) going on to say the "truth of the Universal Father began to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said"…meaning that the words of the Prophet refer to the "Universal Father".

STEVE: In my opinion you are playing with semantics here to score rhetorical points. When the DC states that "the truth of the Universal Father began to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said," this is a clear indication that no precise or exact equivalent is intended between the DC's reference to the Universal Father and the prophet's speaking of God. Rather, the connection between the two is intentionally suggestive, allusive, and figurative, and was meant to be illustrative of the evolutionary nature of humankind's understanding of God.

THORBURN: C. Things and beings are the stuff of the universes that the prophet (according to the Divine Counselor) says is the creative domain of the sons of God, making it a clear distinction from that of the Father, who created the "heavens and the heaven of heavens".

D. Therefore, if you abide in the notion that the prophet is not misquoted or slandered, the Universal Father is a son of God, and not the Father which the prophet states clearly is the creator of the "heavens and the heaven of heavens", making the "Universal Father" an imposter to the throne of God. The charge of blasphemy applies here.

STEVE: This description verges on sophistry, I'm afraid. The DC quotes the prophet while intimating that he does not possess the full truth regarding the nature and function of the Universal Father ("The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn...") and, ipso facto, about deity in general. This incomplete understanding on the part of the prophet can in no way be compared to blasphemy. If you are saying that the DC is guilty of blasphemy merely by citing the sincere words of the prophet of the third epochal revelation, you misunderstand the term. If you are claiming that, by quoting the relatively primitive knowledge of the prophet, the DC somehow is himself guilty of stating that the Universal Father is the same as his Creator Sons, you misunderstand the function of quotation marks.

THORBURN: E. If the Divine Counselor has misquoted the Prophet, then the "unchallengeable authority" of the Divine Counselor is in serious question, and renders all subsequent writing the fruit of the poisonous tree.

STEVE: You have no way of knowing whether the DC misquoted the prophet. There is no indication that this quote is a misrepresentation of any existing source. That is only your assumption.

THORBURN: F. If the Divine Counselor deliberately misquoted the Prophet then the issue of slander and blasphemy is applicable.

STEVE: This is a rhetorical flourish based on an unfounded and biased assumption.

THORBURN: By the way, the UB clearly admits plagiarism ("Thou shall not bear false witness") a grievous sin. For more information on this, read "Urantia the Great Cult Mystery" by Martin Gardner.

STEVE: You are assuming that plagiarism is inherently wrong. Granted, the vast majority of motivations for plagiarism are involved with selfish gain, whether it be financial, celebratory, or academic. But there are various situations where plagiarism is justifiable and honorable. The production of an epochal revelation by our universe government certainly counts as one of them.

"It requires no great depth of intellect to pick flaws, ask questions, or raise objections. But it does require brilliance of mind to answer these questions and solve these difficulties; faith certainty is the greatest technique for dealing with all such superficial contentions." (102:7.6)

If the shoe fits, wear it. The first statement applies with great precision to the character who calls himself Caligastia (I used to know his real name, but I've forgotten it). That you seem infatuated with his facetious thinking depresses my estimation of the quality of your intellect. I have no doubt as to its quantity, however.

happy trails, steve h.

From: Peter H. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24986, Sent by Email: Edited Topic:
General , Reply to: 24980


UBRON Administrative Issues

Hi All!

I, for one, would just like to say that I support Pat in his decision. I have NOT considered the issue, nor is there any reason for me to do so, therefore my support has no connection with the merits of the "case".

But I have criticized UBRON's self-government policy as falling quite short of Jesus-style group government. However, Pat is doing the best job he can under the present circumstances. He assessed the situation and made his decision, just as he is required to do. And until and unless we begin with a Jesus-style group government here, that's OK in my book!

I just wanted to make that clear!

Sincerely,

Peter

 

Dear Members,

Recently, a discussion has taken place about issues of free speech here on UBRON, and a supposed lack of tolerance for divergent views here by me an others. However, even more recently, one of our members, Mr. Stephan Thornburn, has tried to focus the discussion on himself and his personal gripes about how this Forum operates.

This was because, after several weeks, he could find no support for his positions. More recently, this individual has tried to turn the discussion into a dialog about how he is being treated unfairly here, and has posted several replies to members who have challenged him which have been counterproductive to our purpose here.

I do not doubt Stephen's sincerity in trying to express his opinions. We have given him room to do so. I have asked him privately to respond to several questions. Particulary, what he sees as his purpose here. Thus far, all I have been able to glean, along with many others, is that he wants to make his issues the focus of this forum.

For the sake of gettng this Forum back on track to our original purpose, I have suspended Mr.Thornburn's posting rights for the moment. This is not to censor him, it is to simply ensure that the greater prupose of this list is served for the greater good, especially for new members who have come to UBRON looking for a balanced and loving place where they could feel welcome and at home.

I'm sure that there will be some that disagree with this action I have taken, others who will welcome it. No matter the outcome, I'd like to remind everyone that UBRON is not a democracy, it is a free site, and all of our members are guests, as it were, in our living room.

We will continue to welcome all here who will recognize and agree to our common purpose here, but to those who want to make this place a forum for their own biases, their own rants, and who want to use UBRON as a place to spread their prejudices, I speak for the majority when I say that you are not welcome. We are not passing judgment on your status with God, or on your character.

This decision has not been easy for me, and I beleive I have spent enough time on the sidelines about this issue. I wish Stephan well, and hope that he finds the answers to his personal quest.

Thanks for your support,

From: Rain l. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24989, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Study , Reply to: 24977


Prison World

Steve, I feel kind of strange responding to your post with your not being able to write back, but you know Pat is a wise soul and a beautiful poet as well, so I am going to post a response anyway and just hope that you are receiving it as it is projected in accord with my heartfelt feelings for your situation as well as for you. Your contention that we have idols etc. etc. seems so bizarre as to well quite honestly I find it funny. We all do have one idol in common, our Master friend and brother, Michael of Nebadon. And you have revisited us with the idea of the Ancients of Days, even a closer representation of our Divine Father than Michael. It is hard for me to come up with an image in mind that could approximate the beauty of such a Son of God. Yeah, we worship Michael, so what, and so what if tens of thousands of Saints fall on their beautiful light filled holy faces when they get the chance to expresses their love for one whose beauty is overwhelming? God has provided for such times in the ascent There has never been a movie star or a rock star, nor a political leader in human form that has ever reflected the beauty of God as does Michael, so kind and gentle and wise and patient and loving, he will forever be our hero. The imitation of God is the key to perfection it is told to us in our precious book, and I mean precious. We would all love the chance to bow down and praise the Ancients of Days for the informative instruction and guidance that we have been provided by this interim bestowal of truth. Of course we would all cheer to usher this strife torn ball into the next age, and once and for all, end the Material Age, and anyone closely scrutinizing this showdown has to be somewhat concerned because we are in the third world war, and men are not hurling stones anymore, they are threatening to release the haywire microbes out of Pandora’s box, and then backing it up with the threat of nuclear explosions. I shudder at the potential outcome for all the creatures of nature as much as the tortures of war, which are brought upon man by man. It would be a great time for some intervention, I mean look at the "leaders" that are deciding what moves will be made. That’s enough to make a mere mortal nervous if nothing else does. Lets see, so I contend with your accusation that we are worshipers of the book, but its rather that we worship our Father and our Father in his sons, though we are eternally grateful for the instruction. By the Sons of God the universes are made, is this not a fact? Well yeah, sure the patterns are safely secured on Paradise as the glorious ideal upon which the material realms are patterned, so the original Plans are his, but the ascension plan, he thought up with the Eternal Son. We mortals live on an incubator world, we first have to see God and then have to learn to imitate Him in his perfection, each in our own way, thus we all learn to realize his purpose, to love Him and each other. This guidance comes from within, once you experience the full impact of His love from without and within how can you ever go back to denying the beauty of His children, high and low? The chain of evidence is that the light shines brighter in our souls and in our minds and our hearts glow so much brighter with love and the stars that have not fallen can see the light of our love, even if you cant. By the way, there is nothing like a fire flaming campfire rising up against the beautiful dark forms of the mountains and the trees, I do not know about lynching, but it’s a great place to worship, don’t you think? We are all caressed by his Watchcare at all times. Still we would be as happy with a divine visitation from the Ancient of Days himself, Michael, Machiventa, Lanaforge, there are a lot of our heros out there. Perhaps we will be blessed with their presence sooner rather than later. If it were up to us it would be right now, but it is up to them so patience continues to play out an important role in our lives. I found your questions very interesting. Peace. Love- Rain

From: Steve R. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24993, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24980


UBRON Administrative Issues

Thank you Patrick for your message and guidance of this forum, and I assure you that you do have my support. I offer my opinions or insights into a situation because I don't believe all the burden should fall on you, and I feel it helps you to get a read on what the rest of the community has in their minds. I try to temper my responses with what wisdom I have without being abusive, I apologise to any that were made uncomfortable by my responses to Stephen. Wishing you all peace and a blessed day.

From: Rick W. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 24994, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24986


UBRON Administrative Issues

Hey Peter, Ubron Siblings,

How about forming a committee of three or more to handle suspensions and admissions? This might take some of the pressure off Pat and Holly to read every post, follow every thread, adjudicate squabbles and keep steam in the engine.

If you have already suggested this Peter, apologies. Thanks to Pat, Holly and Bruce, more bricks for your houses on Paradise.

Love to all, Rick w.

Peter H writes:

Hi All! I, for one, would just like to say that I support Pat in his decision. I have NOT considered the issue, nor is there any reason for me to do so, therefore my support has no connection with the merits of the "case".

But I have criticized UBRON's self-government policy as falling quite short of Jesus-style group government. However, Pat is doint the best job he can under the present circumstances. He assessed the situation and made his decision, just as he is required to do. And until and unless we begin with a Jesus-style group government here, that's OK in my book!

I just wanted to make that clear!

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Vic M. 1/11/02
Msg. No: 25017, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
General , Reply to: 24980


UBRON Administrative Issues

Right on, Patrick!

You have my moral support! Also, let everyone understand that you, DO have the right to ask folks who are rude or obnoxious to leave your home. And, surely, we UBRONers are guests and owe due respect for the house rules, originally set up by Suzie and managed so well by you, Holly, et al.

Thanks for this venue to share, inspire and debate.

Vic M.

From: Forrest A. 1/12/02
Msg. No: 25042, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24943


Publicizing List Operations

Dear Saskia this time limit is working better than we know within this email technology as compared to face to face communications. Extended-- it might futher enhance the positives of the situation but it will not erase the negatives. Saskia.. Well.. I would love to debate ideas but the negative fact is.. none of us are capable of any debate that can approach a view of the K level. Our belief systems are not as examined as we might believe them to be and also our self-seeking natures are not as modified as we might like to believe and so these false and ignorant beliefs are in control of behavior no matter the time constraints and no matter the intellectual grasp of the UB. (I do not exclude myself in saying this.) So instead of the time limitation I would prefer to forget about time washing the outside of the cup (even if that would be helpful it is still a limitation of human will control placed over the whole entire group of we ignorant children which in the long run might not be needed if we worked more on washing the inside of the cup.) I propose a purpose functional division just as it is of universal factually needed at the very top of the grand universe so it is needed here also. The first trinity is equal in spirit but (diverse). (Diverse meaning united but different) instead of (adverse as in... divided). Although the following groupings may not be reflective of high triune function .. they may be one of a lowest starting places. They are an opportunity for voluntary self- placement..which I feel is an extended opportunity instead of a limitation...These three groups being (1) share group and (2) debate group and (3) share and debate group..I have proposed this before without any embrace by the members...still. I repeat it..as..I am willing to settle for the ability to share ideas without harrassment from thoughtless and infantile attempts at debate.... but I would still want whole access as with the whole group being posted openly together but in three different forums..as I do soooo love debate but I would also love to sprout wings and fly.

From: Forrest A. 1/12/02
Msg. No: 25046, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 25042


Publicizing List Operations

On re-reading my own post I realized that I had not made myself very clear with respect to the concept.. This idea does not require choices to be made by the readers...the present forum would remain as it is....as a both debate and share forum...One would simply have two other forums with all and any of the current subject divisions present there also.....and one would be free to post in any of the three forums....It would be my hope that those in serious debate would voluntarily move to the debate forum as the atmosphere and posts on that location would create a better environment for that purpose as well as make it a better place to read debate threads.. And those wanting to simply share ideas and inspirations would likewise have a place location better suited to that purpose and all of the middle combinations would still be as it is today on this forum setup. I know it may be indeed difficult to invision the advantage of this three room setup....but the right atmosphere to serve purpose is important to growth. I think this social architecture is needed for growth and a peaceful environment.

From: Peter H. 1/12/02
Msg. No: 25049, Sent by Email: Yes Topic:
Politics and Debates


Steve Thorburn's Specious Logic

Hi All!

Although I offered my ideas on a point or two along the way, I got in too late to understand Mr. Thorburn's original argument. But his "Recap" changes that.

His logic is so specious that if I had been List Op I would have suspended him for fallicious assumption alone!

His argument is that the concept "First Source and Center of all things and beings" denotes some creative value which is similar (thus contradictory) to the meaning of the statement, "by the sons of God were the universes made". He would FORCE us to accept only HIS choice of the several definitions of the word "source" instead of the one which the context shows is meant ("center" has no denotation of creativity). The dictionary says:

"source (sôrs, sors) noun
1. The point at which something springs into being or from which it derives or is obtained.
2. The point of origin, such as a spring, of a stream or river. See Synonyms at origin.
3. One that causes, creates, or initiates; a maker."

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, © 1992

As we see, "creates" isn't even the preferred definition. Number 1 is obviously the definition which is being used in the concept. And the Foreword, where divinity concepts are defined and explained, shows this:

"God, as the First Source and Center, is primal in relation to total reality . . . . God -- the Universal Father -- is the personality of the First Source and Center and as such maintains personal relations of infinite control over all coordinate and subordinate sources and centers" (5 B).