The old saying that birds of a feather flock together is appropriate to this subject matter. The Urantia Book frequently attracts

those of a facist mindset. The ideals of American Liberty as espoused in our Constitution go out the window where these

people are concerned. Their 'book' defines Christianity and Judiac traditions as 'primitive religions' while, at the same time,

attempting to attach themselves to Christianity in order to gain some degree of credibility. However, once inside the ranks of the

cult mentality, Christianity and the words of the Apostles have no meaning because the Uranita Book knows better. This is

particularly evident when Biblical Verse contradicts their assertions.

The Urantia Foundation recently lost their English language copyrights to the book. They proposed, to a jury, that the papers

materialized out of thin air and can not, or will not, produce proof of authorship. This 'tooth fairy' rendition has many variants

floating around in the ranks of the cult. Yet, as these were sworn statements in a court, we must allow that some fear of a

perjury allegation will have prompted them to be a little more forthcoming than they usually are.

The Bible, unlike the Urantia Book, has a clear and identifiable trail to the Son of God. This is an imprimatur the Urantia Book

can't claim nor enjoy.

There are two primary Urantia book chat forums, Ubron.org and Ubook. org. Both employ the same facist tactics in that

American ideals of free expression, and dissent, are buried under facist practices. Furthermore, these people tend to be

as rabid dogs in heat, predatory and cannibalistic unless you are willing to bend knee before their miscreance. No better proof

is available than the words of a Urantia Book true believer and List Operator for the Ubron facit of the cult.

I quote:

Friends,

I have watched the discussions all day long, and frankly, I am tired and sad about it all. Back and forth, back and forth. No

solution.

Why is there never a solution? Because The Ubook doesn't have any and there are damned few open minds available for true

discussion or debate.

I have tried as List Op to do my best, to go the extra mile, to try to keep this list in line with the Golden Rule and love. It seems

to have been for naught today. All there has been today is bickering and more bickering. This is why people leave this list and

never come back.

This is why most internet discussion lists fail. They become dominated by one or more individuals who have a personal agenda

to push. They become places where people prefer to argue rather than stay focused on the mission of the list.

It saddens me that UBRON goes through this all the time. What am I to do? I surrender.

Today was a perfect example of what UBRON is NOT intended to be. This discussion has gotten off track, and I don't have

time, energy or the willingness to continue to do this. I find myself too stressed out by all of this. I have a life. UBRON is not

my life, it was a service project for me. I would like to participate here again as a member, and have no other rights as an

administrator. My personal balance is off, and it is partly because I am taking too much of my personal time to do this work.

Would anyone else like this job? Yet I am also challenged to continue here because I beleive I can do some good. But I do not

want this job any more. I do not want to be the one who makes the decisions about who can stay and who can go. I'm up

in the middle of the night writng this. I can't sleep because of this. That's not in my best interests. I send you all my prayers.

Pat McNelly

This letter speaks for itself and let the buyer beware.

This post demonstrates the 'scheme' to inflitrate main stream Christianity with the Urantia Book ultimately being

intended as a replacement for The Bible.

______________________________________________________________________

Hi everybody! I hope I've got this web page system figured out---seems like I just took a "stupid"

pill! I am a reader of UB for about 25 years. Joined a small Presbyterian church 10 yrs ago, thinking

I would act as a missionary to the church! Lofty thinking, huh? I have been embraced by this

bunch of people as a leader,even preaching from time to time. I have talked a little about UB, but

did not get a positive response. They always LOVE the UB ideals, as long as they don't know

where they come from. Crazy, isn't it? Or is it?!? Now the "day of truth' is about to arrive---I am

teaching a class to Adult Sunday School for 2 weeks on the Urantia Book. It's time. . .otherwise

they will go on thinking that all these "radical" ideas have come from me. If there are people out

there who do work Inside the church, I would love to hear from you. Or if you simply have any

pointers for me, bring them on! I feel like I am out here floundering around all alone, but then you

and I BOTH know that I have a great Support Network in place! Blessings to all, Dianne

______________________________________________________________________

Does it constitute a conspiracy when Uranita Book types teach your kids from the Urantia Book instead of The Bible and then seek to hide their indoctrinations from the Parents? Read this Ubron post.

Hello Dianne, I wish you luck with your Sunday School lesson. I taught lessons for several years to

young teens based on the things I learned in the UB. But I never revealed the source, primarily

because I didn't think any of them were capable of taking the big blue book home to Mom and Dad

and saying "This is what we learned in class today!" Or maybe I just didn't want to get a call

saying "What are you teaching my kid?"

______________________________________________________________________

It would appear there are some efforts to inflitrate 'Christian' groups. Fortunately, the group referenced in this post

isnt quite 'ready' to give up their Christianity to the likes of the Urantia Book. This was listed under the header

______________________________________________________________________

For me the UB revelation is an augmentation of the vast spiritual and theological knowledge thus

far gleaned in my sojourn here. I never once brought up the UB in another discussion group I

belong to, 'The Academy' - a christian apologetic group. I have brought up concepts that the UB

may teach or support.....but some of these have also been held by other enlightened teachers

thru-out earths history. Those in the Academy group are not ready for a big blue book to fall into

their phariseeical laps! lol - this is the case for most of them,....there are however more liberal

minds who might find the FER interesting....if not peculiar. For me the UB enhances my own

spiritual and intellectual organs of perception....taking me to cosmic heights and integral depth of

the whole and infinity of Gods great and wondrous plan - the evolution of the soul and even God

Himself. Certainly it allows one liberty of thought while maintaining the constancy of spiritual

values and true meanings - these even being flexible and subject to the perfections of progressive

evolution. The UB opens one up to a vast universe and infinite potential of ones own existence.

______________________________________________________________________

Dave, Hi! Neighbors indeed! I live in Cedar Rapids and to the best of my knowledge there are no UB

groups here. I would be a millionair if I had a dime for every person I have talked to about this

book! I have run into people who have heard of it...mostly New Age, and they tend to reject it

when they discover the writings on mysticism,superstitions, etc...not to mention it is a bit too

"Jesusy" for most. The "churched" people usually cannot buy into it mostly because of fear (my

opinion). And they think it's too New Age! Life is funny!

My daugther was doing the fundamental thing and I found that I could not use logic because the

Bible is not logical nor is faith. The only thing I found to work was to sow the seeds of doubt in

the Love of God as described in the Bible. I think the thing that finally took root was the concept

that the war mongering God of the old testament is not the same as the loving God of the new

and that if God can change throughout the Bible then it means that our concept of God can

evolve beyond the Bible.

______________________________________________________________________

Unsubscribe

Brothers and sisters,

I too am weary, weary, weary to death of all this bickering. I have enough on my plate right now

dealing with serious personal family problems. It is no longer a joy, release or solence to come to

UBRON to visit when i read these posts. Afraid I've fallen off the Jump train too bruised and

dissillusioned being a new reader and rider and not understanding all this political stuff and the

intolerance and lack of love shown brother to brother. Please add my name to the unsubscribed

list also. Thanks but no thanks for this short ride with you.

______________________________________________________________________

Bickering

To All: I stopped posting on this bulletin board because of the constant bickering, namecalling, & all the egotistical rantings & ravings posted here. Where is the love & understanding that is

supposed to be manifested in a group such as this ? What good does it do to clamor for a personal point of view that is really just as valid as anyone else's ? Does anyone here have any claim to the real 'Truth' of any issue ? I have had my fill of this nonsense, & long for the sincere & humble seeking for genuine understanding to be the motive for posting here, not to prove a point. Philp

______________________________________________________________________

QUOTE: Notwithstanding this obstacle, it seems that you ought to be able to agree upon the

biologic disfellowshiping of your more markedly unfit, defective, degenerate, and antisocial stocks.

(P.585)

QUOTE: Having failed to achieve race harmonization by the Adamic technique, you must now work

out your planetary problem of race improvement by other and largely human methods of

adaptation and control. (P.586)

770 The subnormal man should be kept under society's control; no more should be produced than

are required to administer the lower levels of industry, those tasks requiring intelligence above the

animal level but making such low-grade demands as to prove veritable slavery and bondage for the

higher types of mankind.

793 The survival of large numbers of defectives and degenerates is not because they have any

natural right thus to encumber twentieth-century civilization, but simply because the society of

the age, the mores, thus decrees.

803 … poverty and dependence can never be eliminated if the defective and degenerate stocks

are freely supported and permitted to reproduce without restraint.

880 Unrestrained multiplication of inferiors, with decreasing reproduction of superiors, is unfailingly

suicidal of cultural civilization.

920 the real jeopardy of the human species is to be found in the unrestrained multiplication of the

inferior and degenerate strains of the various civilized peoples…

1088 false sentiment… has led to the unwise perpetuation of racially degenerate stocks which

have tremendously retarded the progress of civilization.

1219 Civilization is in danger when youth neglect to interest themselves in ethics, sociology,

eugenics, philosophy, the fine arts, religion, and cosmology.

______________________________________________________________________

Keeping in mind the concept that "the Most Highs rule in the

kingdoms of men", I often wonder why eugenics would have taken such

a poor turn during the last century. Attempts at implementation of

birth control in the name of eugenics left a tragic legacy in the

USA, while the disastrous effects of the Holocaust will not fade

from memory for generations. Hope may be found in the development

of genetic engineering. Having said that, I am reminded of

Huxley's "Brave New World", and wonder how prescient his vision

was. Have we faced the future, survived "1984", and driven headlong

into our own Brave New World?

Chick's quotes included this one:

" The survival of large numbers of defectives and degenerates is not

because they have any natural right thus to encumber twentieth-

century civilization, but simply because the society of the age,

the mores, thus decrees."

Most of us will not argue that there are defectives and degenerates

abounding, but rather than implement a program to change that, we

must be guided by the higher truth to modify the mores of the

society we live in.

It looks like things have been slow for the Ubron Facists since the Fall of the Third Reich!

______________________________________________________________________

Ubron wants you to join their forum. When you first login, they give you a big 'howdy - glad to see ya'. What they don't tell you is that membership in their little group requires that you check your principles at the door. The ASSUME and PRESUME to psychoanalyize you and a defective or emotionally disturbed when you don't agree with them OR if you react to their

presumptions of offering 'help' when it is neither needed or asked for.

______________________________________________________________________

I've gone over the archives of Dennis X's posts twice now, and unless someone forced a

sanitization of the archives so that "widdle- bitty new members won't be shocked and pee their

panties", as "folks" have called for in the past, I must be missing the awful messages that he

wrote so as to be crucified from the list.

Here's an example of the twisted "one way" logic that is used here by those who are self-justified

armchair psychobabble artists, ones who would claim to sum up a person upon reading a few

emails. This kind of stabbing, especially in front of a whole community, would be enough to make

almost anyone crack and start to rant (I know, some of the same ones have done it to me):

Dear Steve, Dennis, and all, I appreciate your joining in Steve, to help Dennis identify what's

bothering him.

Like you Steve, I see clear signs of tremendous unresolved pain in Dennis, very likely the natural

result of one of more of those tragic circumstances he has so many statistics on.

That he's expressing inner pain, as anger, is sadly frequent in wounded males of our world who've

not been supported to identify, and much less likely to have been trained in, the appropriate

expression of softer emotions, WHICH WE ALL HAVE.

The *more frequently denied to males* feeling of our universally bestowed capacity TO FEEL,

seems primarily defined as the expressions of vulnerability, dependency and powerlessness.

Basically, the most painful part of the human condition experienced by ALL of us as infants and

children.

Dennis, if you're reading, I hope that you'll consider these possibilities as you assess where your

anger is coming from. All those accumulated studies and statistics you've amassed could be used

by you as road signs of what to look for, if you're inclined to undertake personal healing. I hope

you will accept the fullness of your experience as an equally-sponsored member of God's family on

earth. Meaning, remember that you have equal rights of Being.

Goodnight Love,

To say these kinds of things about someone, as if you have some special license from God is

unbelievable...and equally worth getting booted, at least compared to what Dennis's succinct

attempt to convey a very honest ideal that was in his heart.....all you liberal FAUX-experts are so

incredulous in your self-riteousness. Subjectivity is your God. Go look for the really hidden anger in

your own hearts.

Cheers, Chris B

______________________________________________________________________

ADOPT A TRANSLATION

Hello Siblings,

If Urantia Book readers feel the need to serve in the dissemination of the teachings in ways other

than living it, there is an ongoing project that could use your support. The project is translating

the Urantia Book into the major languages of today.

So far, there are Spanish, French, Russian, Finnish, Korean and Dutch editions already published.

Portuguese and German translations are soon to be complete. Arabic, Farsi, Mandarin Chinese,

Japanese, Italian, Malay-Indonesian, Serbo-Croat, Polish, Swedish, Bulgarian, Greek, Danish,

Estonian, Norwegian and Lithuanian are all being worked on now.

In the plans, but not yet begun, are translations into Hindi, Urdu, Bengali, Punjabi, Talugu, Tamil,

Marathi, Cantonese, Vietnamese, Wu, Javanese, Turkish, Tagalog, Thai, Min, Swahili, Ukrainian,

Kanada, Gujarati, Hausa, Malayalam, Hakka, Oriya, Burmese, Sudanese, Assamese, Pashtu,

Amharic, Sindhi, Yorba and Igbo.

The Urantia Foundation has made all the existing translations and with our help and that of an

extraordinarily talented multilingualist named Seppo Kanerva, who is leading the translation effort,

we can get the whole revelation into the hands, minds and souls of every Urantian someday. How

soon that is done depends on how much we want it to happen.

I feel the need to do everything we can to get the book into the native tongues of as many of the

major languages as possible. If you agree, there are many avenues of service open to help us

reach that goal.

______________________________________________________________________

This extract from a post on Ubron well shows the hyprocrisy of the 'true believers'

Ubron doesn't notice prospective 'members' that they have to pass a litmus test of belief. Once in the door, this is imposed in

transit. It is no irony that this individual deems himself competent to judge others while, at the same time, the purportedly 'holy

papers' of the Urantia Book is stated, in Federal Court, to have materialized out of thin air. The tooth fairy was working

overtime.

I am against allowing people to come here and deny the teachings. They may participate for a

while to give an opportunity for dialogue but to have someone here endlessly putting down the

book is a waste of everyone's time. That goes for 'channeled material' and people who post things

that deny the teachings, like the incident Rob. 'Channeled material' cannot be debated

because the poster claims it is from a separate being, as a result they don't take responsibility for

it. That is against the spirit of the premise of this forum - Urantia Book Readers Online Forum. Not

Otherworld Beings Online Forum. If Rob's invisible friend wants contacts they can form their own

community without getting involved with UBRON.

______________________________________________________________________

Working With Members

Sorry Steffani, it's the same old problem of why not let the Satanists in if we let the Christians in.

Just tell them all to stay out.

______________________________________________________________________

Introduction by Stephen Thorburn

I thought I might go ahead and give a brief introduction to the following list of excerpts from UBRON as it relates to my experiences there. I have been a long time (16 yrs+) reader of the Urantia Book. And I was at one time a strong proponent of its teachings, even hosting a study group at my home on a weekly basis. A couple of years back I first became aware of the ESG forum, and when I got there, I noticed some posts by Caligastia. I immediately thought that this was some "nut job" that thought he was Caligastia. And so I took it upon myself to expose him for what I had thought he was. This proved to be a very trying experience for me, which went on for some time. The logic and reason employed by him was remarkable and I found myself eating an ample portion of humble pie along the way. When once I had determined that he was in fact whom he said, I then took it upon myself to "slay the devil" as it were. You see I was still in the Urantia mindset and believing the "bad guy" image of him that the book taught. So I went on with every means I could muster to challenge and try him in that forum and on his forum as well. This was to no avail. He responded to me with reason and logic and a great deal of patience I might add. During this time, my behavior toward Caligastia and the Advens was not among the better moments of my journey. At one point in time, we came to an impasse. So I backed off for a short time and took that opportunity to read and then reread all the posts on his site. You see…I truly was earnestly seeking to get to the truth. This became a turning point in my journey. I kept in contact with him and the Advens and began to see things very differently with regard to Caligastia and the Urantia Book. I began to see that things were not as they seemed on the surface in the Urantia Book, that there was indeed a deception and a spin in the writing and that there were truths within it that were far less glorious than the holy words which wrapped them could cover. I went to UBRON and tried to give a prime example of this deceptive spin using the very first paragraph of the first paper as an exemplar. Now while my behavior there was not perfect, I think I did handle myself in a fairly civil manner. I certainly did not deserve the responses I was treated with by the folks over there. I expected that the points I raised would not be taken very well due to my own experiences with Caligastia, but I did not expect it would go as poorly as it did. The following are the threads that resulted from my initial posts on UBRON and what followed, including my expulsion from the list. And these posts are exemplar of the poor behaviors, which can result when "belief" and "delusion" overtake reason and logic.

Stephen Robert Thorburn

From: Carol H. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24199, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24175

My Fear/Chicken Little

Stephen writes: "If someone points out that your foundation has a crack in it, do you turn a blind eye and build your house upon it anyway?"

I would if her name was Chicken Little-----

One day Chicken Little was walking in the woods when -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell on her head "Oh my goodness!" said Chicken Little. "The sky is falling! I must go and tell the king."

On her way to the king's palace, Chicken Little met Henny Penny. Henny Penny said that she was going into the woods to hunt for worms. "Oh no, don't go!" said Chicken Little. "I was there and the sky fell on my head! Come with me to tell the king."

So Henny Penny joined Chicken Little and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Cocky Locky, who said, "I'm going to the woods to hunt for seeds."

"Oh no, don't go!" said Henny Penny. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king."

So Cocky Locky joined Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Goosey Poosey, who was planning to go to the woods to look for berries.

"Oh no, don't go!" said Cocky Locky. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king." So Goosey Poosey joined Cocky Locky, Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along as fast as they could.

Then who should appear on the path but sly old Foxy Woxy.

"Where are you going, my fine feathered friends?" asked Foxy Woxy. He spoke in a polite manner, so as not to frighten them.

"The sky is falling!" cried Chicken Little. "We must tell the king."

"I know a shortcut to the palace," said Foxy woxy sweetly. "Come and follow me."

But wicked Foxy Woxy did not lead the others to the palace. He led them right up to the entrance of his foxhole. Once they were inside, Foxy Woxy was planning to gobble them up!

Just as Chicken Little and the others were about to go into the fox's hole, they heard a strange sound and stopped. It was the king's hunting dogs, growling and howling. How Foxy Woxy ran, across the meadows and through the forests, with the hounds close behind. He ran until he was far, far away and never dared to come back again. After that day, Chicken Little always carried an umbrella with her when she walked in the woods. The umbrella was a present from the king. And if -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell, Chicken Little didn't mind a bit. In fact, she didn't notice it at all.

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24205, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study

"Universal Father" = antichrist

PAPER 1 THE UNIVERSAL FATHER

"THE Universal Father is the God of all creation, the First Source and Center of all things and beings. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder. The truth about the Universal Father had begun to dawn upon mankind when the prophet said: "You, God, are alone; there is none beside you. You have created the heaven and the heaven of heavens, with all their hosts; you preserve and control them. By the Sons of God were the universes made. The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain." Only the concept of the Universal Father- -one God in the place of many gods--enabled mortal man to comprehend the Father as divine creator and infinite controller.

The Prophet states that Father created the "heaven of heavens" and that "By the sons of God were the universes made". The Divine Counsleor states that the "Universal Father" "Created all THINGS AND BEINGS" (the universes). Does this mean that the "Universal Father" is only a "Son of God" and not God himself? Is this "Universal Father" one who is usurping the sovereignty of God? If the "prophet" is correct, then I would have to say that the "Universal Father" is an imposter to Father, and must be the antichrist.

Stephen

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24233, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24217

Misquote of Scripture in the UB

Steffani,

Sorry...different quote in question. Try and find "By the sons of God were the universes made".

Cal has nothing to do with this.

Stephen

From: Larry G. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24180, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24162

Dogma

Yes, Rick...

The Urantia Book is designed to self-destruct like on Mission Impossible.

Once the instructions are understood, one does not spend a lifetime reading over the instructions, instead of lighting out to accomplish the mission.

In terms of time, however, 'getting' the instructions is an individual matter.

* * * * * * *

From: Mr Stephen Robert Thorburn , 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24234, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24226

Steffani,

It clearly says that the "Universal Father" is the Creator of "ALL THINGS AND BEINGS"

Stephen

From: George Z. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24187, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24150

Misquote of Scripture in the UB

From: Gene N. 12/26/01
Msg. No: 23998, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: General , Reply to: 23983

Re:[UBRON: Spiritual Living] Fear

Stephen That question is stark and direct; "So, can one believe they are following the truth while actually being misled? I think so. What say you?" Regarding "tangles" here with the teaching mission and political, within the context of readers, correctness. And, the "Golden Rule", and keeping in mind that I can't fix you and you can't fix me (especially if I think not that it is I who is broken) Pride. Spiritual or Material is truly numero uno. It is the first one listed of the BIG SEVEN.

I Read part IV and if I can ever penatrate the wall of opnions, emotions and feelings I have about the Son of God, Son of Man and truly witness how He stood accused of crimes for which he would be put to Death unless he tried to change that which was around Him by reasoning or convincing his accusers otherwise.

He is the only truth. I have been misled and misled others. I try to know in my soul, my heart what is pride then do the equal virtue: HUMILITY

Thank you

From: Vic M. 12/28/01
Msg. No: 24092, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Politics and Debates , Reply to: 24025

national abuse

Wow!

Tough but worthy web site, Carol.

But derogatory term "Fundamentalism" should be re-termed "Islamic Fundamentalism."

http://rawasongs.fancyma rketing.net/17.htm Vic

From: DebraLee A. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24179, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: General , Reply to: 23919

by way of a friend

I am with you. I am your father/brother Michael who seeks your company without ever ceasing. Our association is continuous. Always am I in your midst.

A mission of my seventh bestowal was to experience fully the life of a mortal, to complete my universe training through gaining, not only knowledge of, but direct experience in all the creature life that has issued forth from my creative powers given me by our Father. I did not singly pursue living as a mortal for the end of the acquirement of the experience of one mortal life. This would have been sufficient in its requirements, but having been on previous bestowal missions engaged in the activities of the various creature orders, I learned that the life of any creature is more than the living of one life. Every station that I chose my bestowal experiences is a complexity of many creatures. The richness derived from an experience as each creature was multiplied through the relationships I had with all other creatures about me. So, upon the maturation of my years on Urantia, my focus was not simply for me in human form to experience a mortal life but to experience the mortal life, which entailed intimate association with my twelve apostles, my accompanying evangels, and disciples. These friends enriched the experience of humankind as I could absorb in my short time on this world.

As I gradually realized my origin, grasped the significance of my purpose for being alive on earth, I soon determined that living entailed incorporating other lives into my experience, thus greatly enriching any experience I could ever have on my own. Thus developed, as I grew and understood spiritual truths taught on this world, that the essential element of eternal value in all the teachings and in all life's undertakings was the incorporation of brotherhood, of fellowship; that to love one another and to treat another as you wish to be treated brought to the human soul a broader experience of life, full of those lasting values of love, of fellowship, of trust and faith. This inter-association of peoples does reveal to the searching soul our Father at least as it is manifest in social and fraternal relations, for the Father is social and all encompassing and all embracing of every one of His children, but this is not readily discernible, especially on this, my favorite world due to the mishaps of the administrations and epochal revelations that preceded my visit. So, it becomes vitally important, as I undertook in my earth life, to spend your time in the Father's presence alone, child to parent, creature to creator, for though the human being is naturally endowed by our Mother Spirit with the tendency to fraternize, having lost much of the great teachings of the ages past, it falls to those of you who follow the revelations that have come to this world to rise up noticeably and demonstrate the reality of relationship with the divine Father.

In understanding the family relationship of universe creatures and the Universal Creator, living and experiencing mortal life expands beyond the realms of self and becomes a life of the experience of man. This wider life experience reveals our Supreme destiny and reveals that beautiful emerging Supreme personality. Though each creature gathered in total as a whole into one body does not sum to the presence of the Supreme, our collective fellowship does indicate the reality of our Mother Supreme.

When I said years ago that he who has seen me has seen the Father, many stood in disbelief, for they could not accept that a man who appeared no different than any other man could look like the Father of the universe. Their vision of the Creator was so lofty, removed, pure and untouchable, the holy of holies, that to consider that the Father was visible through the life of the creature was unfathomable. But this truth must be taken in to all, believed wholeheartedly, and for one's life to adjust to the truth and to live verily this understanding; for the Father is seen in all His creatures by those who are willing to discern, who are able to view transparently through the philosophies, theologies, and structures of all teachings that real, true, and actual presence of God. When once it is discerned, all doubt vanishes, all doubt of the Father's presence and nurture. Indeed, the doubts of ability, the doubts of one's understanding, do remain, but your doubt of worth and of being cared for should forever be dispelled.

This world longs for an increase in the light of life. It thirsts for the water of life. It hungers for the bread of life. I came; I offered it; it was received by those who could discern with the eyes of the spirit, but of great importance, it was received by our Creator Father. Now this water, this bread, and this light are bestowed upon this world in my Spirit of Truth and forever will minister to all who chance to be born upon this world, seeking to reveal the way and the truth and the life that I have come to be known.

You are commissioned by and empowered by my spirit presence to reveal the Father as I have revealed the Father. If this were not so I would not have said,"follow me." It is not a calling that requires great education or authority. Your credentials were bestowed upon you at the choice of freewill, moral decision making. You are endowed with the Father's presence; having the fullness of God within you, you are capable of revealing the Father, for those who see you can see the Father, but they likewise would not discern Father's gift within you if it were not for the fact that they too are equally endowed. My spirit is the spirit that acts like a magnet and draws the two human souls into recognition of the presence of the God of all. My spirit enhances this comprehension.

Spend your time alone in the hills with the Father and you can completely trust my words when I said, "Be not concerned what you will say, for the spirit will speak through you." Be unswayed by the calamities and horrors, the actions of mortals mistaught and distraught, for goodness prevails. When you enter into the mansions of the Father, the worlds I have created for your benefit and growth, and look back upon this world of your nativity, you will note that with the presence of the Father's bestowal gifts and the many angelic and planetary ministers about your world, goodness outnumbers all who harbor evil in their hearts.

Our mission is not to plant light into darkness; our mission is to expand the light such that no darkness remains. Focus upon that which is true and beautiful and good. Be not concerned over ugliness. The enhancement of righteousness automatically displaces the evils of the world. I know there are personalities who are distrustful of my approach, for it is too passive. It does not confront injustice, but, my friends, confrontation is not the way of the Father, love is the way of the Father. Amplification of love will crowd out all injustice. Confrontation of injustice perpetuates the same mistakes and fosters the same hatred. Be brave. Stand for the light. Express love. You are endowed with the very reality these words represent.

I am your brother. I am your father. You are embraced; you are nurtured, and you are commissioned. We approach the celebration of my onetime visit. Annually the world celebrates my arrival. I declare that one day daily the world will demonstrate my arrival in your hearts and through your actions. Peace I bring to you. Peace I leave with you.

From: Peter H. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24172, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24162

Dogma

Hi Rick!

I think you seem to be overlooking the *authoritative* nature of revelation. The UBook has *inspired* growth of my faith/religion primarily BECAUSE it reveals truths which I have not yet come upon on my own otherwise. You need a better understanding of the *reasons* such revelations are essential!

Perhaps it only "re-affirms" your faith and knowledge. But many of us find ourselves in a position of lagging FAR behinf the knowledge of, or faith in, many or most of the truths revealed there. The fact that we accept these same truths merely on the authority of the UBook does in no way prevent further growth and increased understanding. It in fact helps it along! At least that is my personal experience with the book.

Sincerely,

Peter

From: Tiahuan 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24181, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24170

My Fear: Stephen

Hello Peter and thank you!

The source of ideation is the First Source whereas its derivative products are seen everywhere in many forms. The 'history' of which you speak is written by the victors of the material contests in which it is shaped, but the timelines of this inquiry end at its origin where the molten mists of mythology begin.

in friendship,

Rob

From: Rick C. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24184, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24175

My Fear: Stephen

Hi Stephen,

I am o2b1--Rick. I hope you are open to a few comments. You asked, when someone points out a crack in Your foundation is it wise to build upon it.

When one uses printed words for a foundation to build their home on, they have built a DOG-MA house for themselves.

The true foundation is Christ Jesus, and the house is our Father, because he is our true refuge.

Many years ago and still continuing today spiritual leaders promote words as a foundation to build on, and what they get is a religion built on words.

True faith and religion is living, continually revealitg it's self. While printed words can convey meanings and values, to see these meanings and values one must turn inward to the true revealor of truth, even the Spirit of Truth.

Words can be time bound and contain relative amounts of truth for a given time period. Words are not living progressing things, only the values have merrit.

When one locks onto words as a solid foundation for his spiritual home he has limited his growth to only the truth contained within the words only, and has built his home on lifeless dogma.

I don't mean to be hateful here Stephen, but I would encourage you to lodge Your Soul in the refuge of our Father who's foundation is Christ Jesus, a living Truth in himself, and the only true foundation.

o2b1

From: Tiahuan 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24212, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24197

Dogma -to Rick C,PeterH, ListOp,ALL

Dear Dave,

The practice of 'theology' is a second hand business run by those sitting on 'stools' exchanging for a fee another's discarded waste, but living religion is a spiritual odyssey in which every step is an exciting first walking progressively into the uncharted territory of robust faith guided by our Father's love.

Rob

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24196, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24162

Dogma

Beautiful offering, Rick!

Thank you for sharing your personal findings at this time. Your heartfelt hope of improving things for all here by reiterating how dogma functions in relation to forward movement, has been especially helpful to me, with what I'm working on now. I'm assisted by your reminder that each of our's experiences are our own personal education/preparation for world service and that none of those is intended to fill the bill for all.

Far too easily, I forget that it isn't for me to determine when another's graduation from their pet dogma is to occur. Look with the eyes of assurance that all things are working to build a greater good; THAT is what I need to do more of. So again, thank you for your poetic pleas that we not abandon our First Love.

Uplifted by your gift, RhonnaLeigh

From: Bud R. 12/24/01
Msg. No: 23912, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Family Life , Reply to: 23896

generational sins

Hi, Rick.

I didn't know if you were writing to me or George Barnard.

I would say we all face that light at all times.

We are not at odds about the light or the source. But I see light creating fear and fear where light should be.

I believe we will begin to see the same light in due time. For now, why not let it shine from all sources. Each of us are impregnable in the Father's light, darkness can't harm us.

With love,

From: Louise L. C. 12/27/01
Msg. No: 24017, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24005

UBRON Transcended II

Steffani,

I find myself in agreement with much of your letter:

STEFFANI: "Kindness and courtesy and tolerance is also for those who have a different outlook than ourselves...born of spiritual maturity as its inevitable fruition. This concept is presented as "unity without uniformity" based on the purpose of recognizing our brothers as equal sons of God by virtue of His Fatherhood of every one of us."

LOUISE: There are members on this forum who choose to express themselves in a very down to earth manner, writing down to earth posts, getting straight to the point. These people are labelled as "rude and unkind" for their ability to go 'straight for the jugular' and say it like they see it. From their own hearts they are more than likely truly believing their honesty is an act of kindness, which to me it is. As for tolerance, we on these forums have to tolerate the various ways we all have of expressing ourselves. We have to take a nice deep breath so we can get beyond feeling offended, then develop the maturity to understand the real message contained in such posts.

STEFFANI: "...your other suppositions are so prejudicial that they provide strong evidence that your personal preference be that UBRON narrow it's scope of reality to accomodate your own comfort level..."

STEFFANI: "At least having a wise moderator with vision expanded past the tip of his own nose is a more helpful protection for UBRON than giving those who believe their purely personal agendas constitute the Will of God. But it is only their own evil imaginations that lead them to doubt the good intentions of their fellows who post and share here."

LOUISE: Yeah, even those considered to be mean and rude shouldn't have their good intentions doubted.

STEFFANI: "Frankly, I do not see your characterization of Rob, whom I have known from Urantia study groups in both our family homes since the early 80's as the least bit accurate. Or to be anything other than grossly unfair perceptual distortions and mischaracterizations of an unfathomable magnitude. And calling him a "sneaky dog" is really way past the minimal degree of respect that I'd like to see accorded every brother on UBRON."

LOUISE: I say this with all due respect...if you tend to be the same type of person as Rob then you're going to think he's an OK kinda guy. To me he does come across as a "sneaky dog" who dodges straight- talk. Just my perception for what it's worth.

STEFFANI: "You really need to get past painting others with the brush smears of your pet conspiracy theories....which far from being gone...are lurking so close to the surface that your evaluations of others motives become so tainted by your deep seated suspicions...that any semblance of of what you would claim is "discernment" has been hopelessly derailed."

LOUISE: Too true. The motive of what comes across to some of you as a cutting and rude post is more than likely rooted in pureness.

I know we have the GOLDEN RULE but surely we have to mix the Golden Rule with relative maturity and commonsense. Let's not be so easily offended and get all self-righteous the moment someone posts a heartfelt, down-to-earth and perhaps challenging post. Trust that their motive is pure.

Regards, Louise

From: Charlotte W. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24185, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24172

Dogma

Dear Rick, Peter and others,

The Urantia Book opened up my heart. Its perspective on God's love and Jesus's love for humanity and for me, personally, swept me away and lives on in my life. It has given me the fuel for an eternity of inner growth and moving myself toward God. It has helped me see myself as a citizen of the universe, not just of a particular state or country on this one planet. It has given me many ways to think about my place in history and my place amongst my fellows as I live every day.

I don't see the Urantia Book as faith set in stone. I see the UBook as cracking open the stone, making room for my true faith in God and for a manner of living that brings me close to the people around me. Since I became involved with reading the UBook, I've met people, like yourselves, who are also really seeking after truth and doing their best to live their lives by God's will. The friends I've made through the UBook will last me throughout eternity, surely, because they are based on loving God.

You're exactly right that if ever anyone's seeking leads them somewhere that is an end instead of a beginning, or a closing down of understanding and love for the humans around us, instead of an opening up of that understanding and love, then that person should reconsider. It's an important question that we should keep chewing on throughout our lives. Thanks for the heads up.

Love, Charlotte

From: RhonnaLeigh M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24160, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Our Ideals & Goals , Reply to: 24136

tolerance? tolerate? needed actions

Dear Dave,

Again, I feel the need to apologize to you. I hope that your patience with these repeats lasts as long as my slips in composure, but more importantly that your confidence of belonging in God's idea of perfection isn't compromised by my critiques of the effects of your presentation of your views. It is not right for me to post thoughts that I sense might make you feel bad and after posting that one, that's exactly what I've been thinking. Where is my example of the tolerance for other perspectives I originally posted here to promote? Definitely NOT in the last paragraph of that last reply!

Elsewhere this very day I asked something like, "Who am I to say the oppressed must be saved from their oppressors?" For is it not that which we've fought hardest for, that we cherish most dearly? That is how it's been all of my life, so why should I undertake to "save" another from a similar experience? Maybe that's what we abrade each other for, Dave; to help me us both work that out, for improved health in our families. If so, this particular topic is not the best place to continue.

On this one, I can try to inform you of more effective ways to reach people like myself, in order to assist UBRON in realizing it's goal of greater participation on the lists. Certainly though, I won't be very useful in that regard to you or anyone else if my style of communication with you projects hostility towards what you know yourself to be and value.

Besides, for such efforts to bear fruit, you'd have had to express an interest in it first. That is what I thought your many lengthy, colored, enlarged and bold-typed posts here were a demonstration of. But your statements (that outreach is of as little interest to you as being of service to others' spiritual upliftment) makes plain that I've misread your signals somehow. I can be very dense at times. My but it took me a long time to hear what you've been saying on that subject!

I do not understand your position, and your conflicting messages here are a real good explanation for why not. Thanks for clearing up why you post here, and again, sorry for any hurt feelings my remarks -- especially concerning children in your family may have caused. That was in bad taste regardless of how many times you keep bringing them up. Quite out of line with our ideal of practicing the Golden Rule, or showing tolerance for differing levels of understanding regarding the respectful treatment of children.

Off to process s From: Bo A. 12/21/01
Msg. No: 23765, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Our Global Network

tolerance & spiritual indolence

------------------------------------------------------------------------

"What a sorry sight for

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Page 1918

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successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: "Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us." But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

To me this assures that divine truth is not sectarian and not verbiage. Important is actual service quality rendered--- balanced against qualities received by that individual. A nonsectarian who never connected with sectarian exposure (rejected dogma), still can have some indirect recognition of divine truth. Divine truth has managed to manifest,(patch-worked in places), in society. That person will be "reckoned" according to his/ her inheritance received, (the society that raised them).

Therefore, regardless of a label placed on someone,

regardless of creed branding and even

regardless of name recognition ie: the Anglicized name Jesus,

regardless of how garbled the spiritual broadcast they receive,

regardless of never really hearing revelations,

regardless of how little divinity they started life with.........

If they manage to grow even a little and nurture some measure of truth in others, that will be much better than someone who nurtures no truth at all. Even if the other preaches 60 years, if they fail to nurture spiritual growth in themself and in others, that's failure.

ome more,

From: Ms September R. 12/28/01
Msg. No: 24104, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Spiritual Living

BOM: What We Believe: Jesus at Rama

BROTHERHOOD OF MAN

What we Believe

Paper 146: Jesus at Ramah

Jesus listened with patience and sympathy to the teachings of an aged Greek philosopher – allowing the truth of many things he said. Later when his disciples remonstrated with Jesus for doing so, he answered them saying:

True and genuine certainty does not in the least fear outward analysis, nor does truth resent honest criticism. You should never forget that intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of what we believe. No man is at any time disturbed by his neighbor’s attitude when he has perfect confidence in the truth of that which he wholeheartedly believes. Courage is the confidence of thoroughgoing honesty about those things which one professes to believe. Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals.

From: Mr. Jason F. 12/20/01
Msg. No: 23747, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Business/commercial

Sign out icon for UBRON since Steph

Dear Patrick,

We need a what's new on Ubron.org. I am in favor for a "passports Sign Out" icon to prevent cookies and invasion of privacy act and terms of conduct. This is a legal situation here. If it does get nasty you need insurance and a licence to be a non-profitable organization with either a lawyer or sovereign to defend our community. I propose all in favor for a trustee and a donation of Five dollars a year.

From: Steffani M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24214, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 24114

UBRON Transcended II

Well Peter...

I really don't see that "supercharged words" have ever been the problem. When they are used as weapons against others...then it's a problem!

The very idea of people with a certain type of mindset who like to find ways to control the opportunities of others to think whatever they will ...being given "authority", frankly, scares the hell out of me.

The fates of Giordano Bruno and Baruch Spinoza and so many other brothers come quickly to mind. And the spirit of the inquisition is still alive even in the hearts of some who post on UBRON.

I wonder who it is you think of as the "we" who see "TeaM as a threat"? The majority of UB readers on UBRON do not consider the many here who participate as any kind of disturbing trend...even if they aren't directly involved...they don't shun their friends who are. It is only yourself and a very few...admittedly vociferous in their negativity... who feel endangered.

Another thing I like about UBRON (and ESG;-) is the simplicity of the forum format...read oldest to newest posts...respond to whatever seems to elicit one and skip who or whatever you'd prefer not to engage.

For reasons stated previously in this post...I rarely join human organizations...especially those with an aroma of "specialness" or elitism...inner and outer 'circles' or a tendency to shut anyone out. Only as spirit directs by a lure of generating a genuine interest do I willingly assent to be a part of a particular group or other.

Recently I did feel strong inclination to be involved with a new group whose values are resonant and compatible. However, my first post to its 'message board' is probably also my last as it is exceedingly awkward and cumbersome to use...and something that difficult to navigate isn't worth the excessive amount of time it takes to figure out who said what to whom when.

I just don't have that degree of patience with anything that has been needlessly complexified. So I hope that doesn't happen here on UBRON anytime soon.

Anyway, try not to confuse your own ideas of "right and wrong" or "good and evil" with anything that needs to be imposed on...or restricted from access to others.

Only Love,

Steffani

Hi Steffani!

I missed your original post and only found it yesterday. I think your overall point of view is quite valid, but I disagree with what you see my motives as being.

I simply maintained that the Golden Rule being the only rule here is merely a pretense (or a self-deception), and that what we really have are unstated behavior rules. Looking at the people who get suspended, the prohibitions mostly concern super-charged words.

I pointed out that Jesus, himself, used similar super- charged words, so that we cannot pretend that their mere use on UBRON is other than the Golden Rule based.

I am quite sure that many people considered Jesus to be "mean and disrespectful" including his own mother! Certainly the Pharisee did, who eventually terminated more than his posting privileges. Or tried to!

You obviously know Rob as a whole human being, whereas we only know what that part of him revealed in his posts here. That is a truth with which all of us here must contend. I am sure that Chris would come across as being a better person than some of his stronger words might possibly indicate, as would you, and as would I, if our larger personalities could be known.

Still, what we DO SEE here is pretty much the inner person stripped from its outer cover. Here we become what we say (Jesus: "As a man thinks, so he is") and when we say what we think, we are more real than we ever can be face-to-face with each other, where we can be misled by the attractiveness of the flesh and fooled by superficial manners, and/or other material attributes which will NOT survive death.

"Unity with uniformity" is a valid point, but I am sure that you realize that some of us see TeaM as representing much, much more than just a different point of view. The reality is that TeaM got much of its start recruiting on UBook forums and lists. Fred Harris makes this quite clear in his book. Right or wrong, we see TeaM as a threat to newbie appreciation of the URANTIA Book. Like it or not, we see it as representing the actual false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing which Jesus warned were sure to come.

I was not suggesting that Rob's posting privileges be suspended or terminated, but pointing out the prejudicial inconsistency in the fact that Chris was suspended although Rob was not. I personally think that bad teachings are far more harmful than bad words!

Abandoning my conspiracy theory simply means that I have taken it off of my website, http://www.urantiagate.com (which was more-or-less exclusively devoted to the subject). And I have stopped thinking about it and researching it. NOTHING has taken place to change my mind about its roots. If you cannot discern that my postings are VERY different now than what they were like before, I suggest you ask around. Don't you remember how Nancy and I used to clash over the issue? We hardly ever do anymore.

Abandoning my conspiracy theory also means that I have given up any ideas about directly countering TeaM, rather I DO try now to overcome its (IMO) evil by doing good. I am committed to the New Revelation of Jesus, which The URANTIA Book tells us is to be the REAL "Correcting Time", and it has NOTHING to do with flocks of channelled purported celestial "teachers"! Rather, it is to be accomplished by those who "dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings". I am coming to understand the truth that groups which the Father has not planted will be uprooted. My operating truth vis a vis TeaM -- since abandoning the conspiricy theory -- has been, when there is so much good news to publish, why focus on evil even though it seems to be a fact. But all of this is a matter of growth, so character improvements take time.

But when TeaM pops up in my face (I was in a normal-type discussion with Rob when he suddenly started posting his TeaM stuff) I treat it like I would any postings, on its merits or lack of them, as I see it! You might notice that I have NOT made any comments about the recent 1111 postings which I feel are equally obnoxious. I am TRYING to show restraint! And I will have to admit that Rob's attitude really rubs me the wrong way! But I have never asked that he be silenced. I only pointed out my belief that his sarcastic and obfuscated put-downs are no better than Chris' angry words, and I have tried to correct some of his errors. I would be more than happy if Rob "woke up".

And I will have to deny your charge that personally I am advocating "interfering with free will choices" in any way in any of my recently posted ideas concerning UBRON. Nor am I trying to "narrow its scope of reality"! Perhaps you will explain to me how having UBRON governed by the *whole body* of its membership à la Jesus rather than being ruled by a single individual or small coterie would necessarily work the effect you claim? I see it as being quite the opposite, Jesus- style group discipline would allow for more free will choices and a broadening UBRON's scope of reality.

You say, "at least we have a wise moderator with vision," etc. And I agree. And if UBRON is considered strictly as a web forum, it excels in my opinion. But as a "kingdom group" it falls flat on its face! Jesus-style group government does NOT put discipline into even the hands of a "wise moderator".

I do think the whole group would NOT take kindly to any REAL "interfering with free will choices" or attempting to control the forum by "bullying and bulldozing new participants", which you charge, but I also deny that I ever have done that. I would HOPE that the group would not allow UBRON to become a *platform* for advocating TeaM and ACIM! But I would imagine that the group WOULD allow a reasonable amount of open discussion of materials from those sources, wherein it would be expected that they would be compared with actual URANTIA Book teachings.

As to discussions of extraordinary personal religious experiences and other-than-TeaM purported contacts with spirit agencies, I don't see how anyone could ever expect to present them on a forum dedicated to URANTIA Book readers and NOT expect to see the book's appropriate teachings being appealed to in response. But that would be what my proposed inner circles would be for -- a place where you and others could go and lock people like me out! If your circle's posting appeared on the public UBRON page, however, the whole-group authority would still function as to their appropriateness on a URANTIA Book readers' forum. But they could escape group overview by keeping their posts private. The inner circles should have this option (IMO).

Possibly the existing and virtually unused KeyNets could be employed in this manner, as topic/goal-dedicated private, semi- private, or public "inner circles". Pat tells me that there are other unused and possibly unexplored UBRON software functions. But all this is simply personal ideas as to how I think UBRON can be improved, how it can be made to work better for everybody.

Would it make me personally more "comfortable" to be a member of a Jesus-style Kingdom internet group, instead of a member of a secular-style "religious" web forum that does not follow the teachings of the revelation which is its basis, and which misuses the Golden Rule? The answer is: YES!

YES, YES, YES!

Sincerely,

Peter

Steffani Wrote: Peter,

Surely you know that the jist of golden rule is to treat others the way one would themselves appreciate being treated...and furthermore...how WE believe in our hearts God would prefer that we treat them.

This is the difference between being mean and judgemental of others... which you say avoiding is one of your goals, this despite your exceedingly transparent agenda to impose your beliefs on others here on this forum.

Kindness and courtesy and tolerance is also for those who have a different outlook than ourselves...born of spiritual maturity as its inevitable fruition. This concept is presented as "unity without uniformity" based on the purpose of recognizing our brothers as equal sons of God by virtue of His Fatherhood of every one of us.

Aside from your contention that persons of selected nationalities should be granted a far greater leeway in being rude and disrespectful to their fellows...your other suppositions are so prejudicial that they provide strong evidence that your personal preference be that UBRON narrow it's scope of reality to accomodate your own comfort level...as well as that of several other self styled dogmatically rigid mortal 'teachers' who regularly vie to have control of this list format.

(cut and paste of UB verses with no indication of their own thoughts and understanding of the same...or even that they HAVE given them any serious consideration past hairsplitting definitions ;-)

Interfering with the free will choices and decisions and lacking confidence that latitude in discussion of personal religious experiences might have an adverse effect on "newbies" is not only manipulative...but shows a lack of trust in the skill of their Thought Adjusters and the Spirit of Truth to lead them along in the way right that is right for them as individuals who are capable of making up their own minds with God's help and unfailing guidance.

At this time their favorite tactic of those who would control this list is bullying and bulldozing new participants who bring in fresh perspectives on old issues; which could be of great value to the others here who still realize they may have something to learn from other viewpoints being presented here...because they do not believe they have the exclusive franchise of the one and only right understanding of truth...theirs...and so already know everything.

At least having a wise moderator with vision expanded past the tip of his own nose is a more helpful protection for UBRON than giving those who believe their purely personal agendas constitute the Will of God. But it is only their own evil imaginations that lead them to doubt the good intentions of their fellows who post and share here.

Frankly, I do not see your characterization of Rob, whom I have known from Urantia study groups in both our family homes since the early 80's as the least bit accurate. Or to be anything other than grossly unfair perceptual distortions and mischaracterizations of an unfathomable magnitude. And calling him a "sneaky dog" is really way past the minimal degree of respect that I'd like to see accorded every brother on UBRON.

You really need to get past painting others with the brush smears of your pet conspiracy theories....which far from being gone...are lurking so close to the surface that your evaluations of others motives become so tainted by your deep seated suspicions...that any semblance of of what you would claim is "discernment" has been hopelessly derailed.

Offered in real hope that the truth of Love be made manifest to you...

Steffani

From: Steve R. 12/13/01
Msg. No: 23281, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: General , Reply to: 23254

A Message for all UBRON Members

Patrick, Thank you very much for your message, I really enjoyed reading your views. I don't believe we could have a better person at the helm. You have my admiration and respect. Merry Christmas!

From: Steffani M. 12/28/01
Msg. No: 24142, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Prayer & Worship , Reply to: 24073

Siege Mentality

Congradulations Mike,

You have come to the understanding realization that was the reason I got on your case about awhile back...Bob 'Caligastia' Burgess and his crew are far more in need of prayers than cruelty or ridicule...for exactly the reason that is the title of this post.

Only Love,

Steffani

Dear Rick and List-

Thank you, Rick. This has caused my higher self to come awake and regard Mr.Price with pity and patience instead of anger and mistrust. What David has said so far speaks volumes about what is going on in his mind. I pray that his Thought Adjuster will win out and help him with his personal issues.

I have seen this pattern before and I ignored it. I applaud those who deal with love those who wish to "stir up" fear and anger in a list that is based upon a special kind of fellowship that I cannot gain anywhere in 'real' life.

And I pray for others who held ugly thoughts of this lost soul; myself included.

May we all come to experience and live the Truth that has been so freely given to us.

As the Master said, "My peace I leave with you." Peace and Love, Michael "Sixosix" B.

From: Steve R. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24154, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24148

My Fear

I am enjoying the irony that this message subject or thread began as a 'fear' of having unsuspecting new readers 'confused' by the thought that readers of the Urantia Book are somehow tainted by association with the practice of 'channelling' particularly as results in Teaching Mission transcripts, but as the thread continues it would seem to me that any such 'newcomers' would more likely be alarmed that there appeared such a long line of fear in a forum presumably occupied with a devotion to the posture of 'faith'. Rob *****************************************************

This brings to mind a favorite "key" for me, I don't even recall where I got the term, "Faith Grasp", that knowledge that can only be had first through faith, which then transforms it into knowledge.

From: Vic M. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24201, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Spiritual Living , Reply to: 24199

My Fear/Chicken Little

Great Fairy Tale, Carol (H).

I'm going to read it to my grandson (age 4 3/4) when he gets back here next month.

Then for all you UBRONers, I'm going to report his reaction. Maybe we can measure his spiritual perception against yours.

Vic M.

Stephen writes: "If someone points out that your foundation has a crack in it, do you turn a blind eye and build your house upon it anyway?"

I would if her name was Chicken Little-----

One day Chicken Little was walking in the woods when -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell on her head "Oh my goodness!" said Chicken Little. "The sky is falling! I must go and tell the king."

On her way to the king's palace, Chicken Little met Henny Penny. Henny Penny said that she was going into the woods to hunt for worms. "Oh no, don't go!" said Chicken Little. "I was there and the sky fell on my head! Come with me to tell the king."

So Henny Penny joined Chicken Little and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Cocky Locky, who said, "I'm going to the woods to hunt for seeds."

"Oh no, don't go!" said Henny Penny. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king."

So Cocky Locky joined Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along and went along as fast as they could.

Soon they met Goosey Poosey, who was planning to go to the woods to look for berries.

"Oh no, don't go!" said Cocky Locky. "The sky is falling there! Come with us to tell the king." So Goosey Poosey joined Cocky Locky, Henny Penny and Chicken Little, and they went along as fast as they could.

Then who should appear on the path but sly old Foxy Woxy.

"Where are you going, my fine feathered friends?" asked Foxy Woxy. He spoke in a polite manner, so as not to frighten them.

"The sky is falling!" cried Chicken Little. "We must tell the king."

"I know a shortcut to the palace," said Foxy woxy sweetly. "Come and follow me."

But wicked Foxy Woxy did not lead the others to the palace. He led them right up to the entrance of his foxhole. Once they were inside, Foxy Woxy was planning to gobble them up!

Just as Chicken Little and the others were about to go into the fox's hole, they heard a strange sound and stopped. It was the king's hunting dogs, growling and howling. How Foxy Woxy ran, across the meadows and through the forests, with the hounds close behind. He ran until he was far, far away and never dared to come back again. After that day, Chicken Little always carried an umbrella with her when she walked in the woods. The umbrella was a present from the king. And if -- KERPLUNK -- an acorn fell, Chicken Little didn't mind a bit. In fact, she didn't notice it at all. Carol F.

From: tawQuin r. 11/26/01
Msg. No: 22488, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Our Ideals & Goals

personal expression of UB

.. all that choose may reveal their personal expression of the UB .. any WAY, they may choose.

.. and as agressively as possible.

page 1931

178:1.14 You are not to be passive mystics or colorless ascetics; you should not become dreamers and drifters, supinely trusting in a fictitious Providence to provide even the necessities of life. You are indeed to be gentle in your dealings with erring mortals, patient in your intercourse with ignorant men, and forbearing under provocation; but you are also to be valiant in defense of righteousness, mighty in the promulgation of truth, and AGGRESSIVE in the preaching of this gospel of the kingdom, even to the ends of the earth.

The existence of the ego/animal self does not go on to the mansion worlds after earth/urantia.The physical poisons of material mind, fear,anger,envy,jealousy,suspicion and intolerance, these, do not continue on..Only all that is good and truth and beauty goes on, for THAT is all that is real. If one is forever dominated by ego mind then one is not taking 'much' with them to the mansion worlds, in fact, there are those who will not survive...they will cease to exist , like a shadow disappearing into the night.If one dies, then the Supreme has to make up for that one's loss. Everyone of us is responsible for the growth of the Supreme. It is not just one's personal existence that is important... one has a cosmic responsibility to the growth and completion of the Supreme. Everything one does or doesn't do effects the growth of the Supreme.

My Teacher always says "if you step on a daisy you disturb a star" meaning everything you do or don't do is CAUSAL ..right from this temporal existence , rippling out into the cosmos for all eternity. AND it is happening NOW all at the same time.

From: Tod L. 12/15/01
Msg. No: 23459, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: General , Reply to: 23448

Several Good Reasons

Hi,

Ultimately, as with all spiritual insight, evolved or revealed, the truth level found within a written text must, and can only be, understood and realized via the daily working of our lives.

I speak only for myself when I say, all of the paths I have studied and practiced during my life-long-God-search have each in succession added new insight and potential for God-like soul growth. Each, in turn, has illuminated our Father's personal loving will for the inhabitants of this world; and for me as an individual seeker.

All along the way there have been pitfalls, obstacles, lies to deal with. Too, all along the way there have been increases in understanding, increases in inner awareness, increases in intellectual and spiritual achievement...but never, until my eyes first fell upon the wondrous pages of the Urantia Book, did so many pieces of the puzzle snap into a clear cosmic picture.

Subjectivity, as well as objectivity, has its rightful place in our respective individual and unique search for God's will, and the subsequent doing thereof. Likewise, the realization that the Urantia Book's message is pure truth, beauty, and goodness, must be individually realized and embraced...may we all find this to be the case in such a dark and hurtful world as this Caligastia has perpetrated.

Whether this newly corresponding individual is actually the age-old Caligastia himself, taking advantage of recently developed typing skills :-), or just another subservient mouthpiece, no matter, Jesus has already dealt with the issue of his rebellion, and found him lacking. We needn't be concerned with such hopeless and frustrated complaining on his part. All the universe knows better.

Peace an From: joseph h. 11/14/01
Msg. No: 22019, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Humor

unified diversity

Greetings Urantians,

1129§8 103:1.1 The unity of religious experience among a social or racial group derives from the identical nature of the God fragment indwelling the individual. It is this divine in man that gives origin to his unselfish interest in the welfare of other men. But since personality is unique—no two mortals being alike—it inevitably follows that no two human beings can similarly interpret the leadings and urges of the spirit of divinity which lives within their minds. A group of mortals can experience spiritual unity, but they can never attain philosophic uniformity. And this diversity of the interpretation of religious thought and experience is shown by the fact that twentieth- century theologians and philosophers have formulated upward of five hundred different definitions of religion. In reality, every human being defines religion in the terms of his own experiential interpretation of the divine impulses emanating from the God spirit that indwells him, and therefore must such an interpretation be unique and wholly different from the religious philosophy of all other human beings.

(my comments) since we all share "the identical nature of the God fragment" everyone ov us has the to get our religious experiences in what ever manner truly works for us. That’s great but how do we reconcile with one another knowing that instead ov showing unselfish interest in the welfare of other men. Some ov these folks here on ubron are wasting our time with all of these "fights" what ever happened to agreeing to disagree or any ov those civil methods ov communication, I see many ov these posts that are no more than Spam when I see the words that start them out, and a lot ov them are long and drawn out (like anyone would read something like that for that long).

For me being on ubron was kind ov an honor at first I thought that the petty word play was humorous for a very short time and then I would just about delete any replies to any original posts, back then some ov the posts were good, there were a couple of good story tellers that I don’t see any more, but these things happen, ov course there are still gems in the rubble, you just gotta have a sense ov humor and unconditional love.

Ubron was one ov the best things about buying a computer it can connect us all to one another and allow us to share in the joys ov our faith. That does not mean that we are alike!! There would be no need for any ubron if that were the case.

Unified diversity deficient bipolar syndrome

Youkneefiiddeevercity.

This message has been spell checked and proofread twice. They’re only words please do not be alarmed. The opinions expressed are those ov my own I think and therefore You can’t ever think them yourselves so there!!!

Peace And Love be with you all (Peasandluvbewitya’ll) Joseph H.

d brotherho From: Saskia P. 12/22/01
Msg. No: 23836, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 23827

UBRON Transcended

Don't the Theosophists also have grades of intitiates, who pass tests devised by fellow mortals, to advance from level to level? This was not started with Madame Blavatsky, the founder, but by her followers and later offshoots. I'm sure theirs started with an innocent suggestion, and now look what it's grown into! We are all the same.

What we need are not only goals, but tasks. When a group of people are working together to achieve a common end, such as building a bridge, there is little bickering. All you need is a leader to coordinate the various talents and skills, and people will learn to love and communicate with each other in the process. The Internet does not lend itself to this type of thing. How many times are we admonished to DO God's will, not just talk about it? In God's universe it is ACTION that counts, and where there is no action there is frustration.

Saskia

**********************************

Peter,

The early Christian church did just such a thing, and even today, its descending ranks of bishops, priests, and deacons condescending to feed the 'mass' of the 'people' continue to perpetuate this rationale of religion as a human authority.

Rob

od,

From: Steven H. 12/29/01
Msg. No: 24156, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Our Faith Community , Reply to: 23981

United UB Readers Initiative

Hi Peter!

PETER: What you say sounds good. Real good! <<>>

STEVE: Thank you!

PETER: MY COMMENT: The difference, as I see it, might be best illustrated by pointing to the difference between the 12 (or 24) Apostles, the 70 evangelists, and those people who believed Jesus and took his teachings to heart, but did not actually become overt teaching missionaries of any sort. These represent 3 (or 4) different levels of dedication and service. The New Revelation of Jesus will be seen in the life actions of those who are "exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men". The accent is on "exclusively devoted". There will no doubt be others who split their devotion among several worthy goals, etc.

STEVE: I finally get what you're saying...like a latter-day Urantian Jesuit thing (avoiding the institutional hook-up). But I still don't know why such individuals would need to form a separate and distinct circle of dedication apart from the religious hoi-poloi (common folk). I think such segregation might inevitably lead to sectarianism, elitism, and resentment on the part of others. I'd rather see such shining examples of dedication easily and informally integrated with other dedicated religionists so as to provide a proximate and steady source of inspiration.

PETER: Also the statement at 195:9.4 says: "Religion does need new leaders, spiritual men and women who will dare to depend solely on Jesus and his incomparable teachings." So this throws into question your group's expressed intent to rely on The URANTIA Book and its teachings.

STEVE: An epistemological point here: Won't these religous leaders depend on The URANTIA Book's narrative of Jesus' incomparable teachings? To the extent they do, we are all readers and interpreters of the same book, perhaps utilizing different emphases. To the extent they choose to access the Spirit of Truth, all UB readers and followers of Jesus are on the same page so to speak.

PETER: I have NOT come to a conclusion about this question. Are we who take this "dare" to forego the entirity of the 5th Epochal Revelation and just chose those parts which may be directly attributed to Jesus? (Naturally adding the inner "teachings" -- or the outward expression of the inner Spirit of Truth).

STEVE: I appreciate your desire to explore this difficult and interesting issue. I, for one, find it antithetical to the spirit of Jesus' religion to have dedication to this teachings be a basis for a *separation* among believers. I would rather believe that those most dedicated to his spirit and truth would find ever more creative ways to demonstrate *unity* in spirit rather than *distinction* in spirit. The writings of St. Paul can be instructive on this count, since the early Christians faced this problem acutely.

PETER: It seems to me that the New Revelation of Jesus is the primary thing. And the so-called "worldwide mission of the Urantia Book" is strictly secondary. But I do at present rely to a great extent on the teachings of The UBook, but I would take that "dare" (indeed I have already) if I knew exactly what it meant, practically speaking. I am sure that if it is for me to learn it, I shall. My mind is simply questioning at this point.

STEVE: Your honesty is refreshing! While I agree that the life and teachings of Jesus will always be the primary source of spiritual inspiration for every UBeliever, I do question the practical implications of publically recognizing and instituting inner and outer circles of believers, ostensibly based on degrees of exclusive devotion to Jesus. The problem with the self-identification of such groups is that it will--sooner or later--result in some form of creedal doctrine to aid with self-identification and selection. Also, inner and outer religious circles reminds me too much of esotericism.

The historical instance of the apostles is specifically related to the unique person and mission of Jesus of Nazareth, imo. Jesus is not with us in the flesh, so we have no need for an equivalent group of latter-day apostles: "a class of men separate and distinct from all other men on earth." (140:3.1)

Let the term "faith" stand for the individual's relation to God rather than for the creedal formulation of what some group of mortals have been able to agree upon as a common religious attitude. "Have you faith? Then have it to yourself." (99:5.7)

This same challenge of course confronts all the Founding Partners of the Initiative, or any group of believers for that matter. But I hope and pray that genuine dedication to the principles of spiritual unity (as discussed on pages 1591-2) will serve to discourage the formation of creeds, sects, inner circles, and institutionalized religion among all UBelievers. We shall see.

take care, steve

From: Mike K. 12/22/01
Msg. No: 23831, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: UBRON Self-governance , Reply to: 23829

UBRON Falls Short

Sorry I didn't hear that Chris Barnaby had been suspended, but I have gotten into the bad habit of deleting most of what is on the list because of him and the bashing of individuals that has taken place. I sympathize with the listops, but there is no way to keep up with everything that is on here. If I don't agree with someone on a post, I try not to issue a challenge, and have no time to get into a dispute. I made the mistake of posting this same individual off-list, to encourage him to lighten up, and got an incredibly vitriolic response. The same thing happened with a French Canadian, perhaps one Peter referenced, and I automatically route email from both of them to my trash. I don't think the list is the place to ARGUE about issues, and my position on an issue should not make me a target for ill-intentioned personal attacks.

By taking disagreements off-list I felt I could spare others the dismay of seeing "cyberspeak" fail to communicate, but it seems that I have twice succeeded in terminating any relationship I may have had with these people.

The fault is not with the list, it is rooted in the inability of the medium to fully express meanings.

I recently wrote to a young college student, mentioning that a telephone conversation was incapable of reflecting emotion, and he laughed. He feels that the phone is much better than email. Perhaps that is so, and perhaps the next evolution of communication will seem less expressive than email.

UBRON is too essential for our community, lets not waste it.

From: Michael M. 12/17/01
Msg. No: 23553, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Purported Celestials , Reply to: 23549

Tonight's Ham lesson

Observe how predictably Bud goes directly into personal attack...

What I fear is the misdirection being broadcast by those who don't know S___ from shinola and the effect is has on the public image of the Fifth Epochal Revelation.

Faithfully,

Michael M.

From: Rayvingbull 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24236, Sent by Email: Yes Topic: Study , Reply to: 24234

From: Sam C. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24237, Sent by Email: Edited Topic: General

Is 'Inconsistency' our best choice?

Hello all,

I have noticed a lot of attention being directed towards this criteria of "Consistancy". I feel the need to take a step back from this and question whether we are being well served in applying it to The Urantia Book as though the Book were a homogenous offering by a single entity whose validity we are judging by an examination for applied perfection.

The Book IS a collection of papers written by a number of persons and groups widely separated in time and space, if not dimension, purpose, and achievement.

Since perfection is the undertaking of so many and clearly not claimed by most contributors to the Book perhaps we would be better served by a more generous criteria.

Fraternally Yours,

Sam

From: Carol F. 12/30/01
Msg. No: 24240, Sent by Ema